Does regeneration precede faith?

[Iconoclast]

DHK

In that respect I have personally seen what Calvinism has done in many churches.

You have first hand knowledge or are you talebearing again?

Brought in by a few

These few...see it clearly in scripture...usually a person such as yourself does not see it, and in fact you oppose it....so the peolpe who study themselves into the position are hungry to learn more about what God has done in electing love, graceand mercy.
Some "teacher" like you seek to hold back this knowledge but the truth shines through and cannot be surpressed.

it has divided the leadership,

some of whom should not be leading because they are unqualified

split the church,

If the church searches out these truths...and the leaders are blind as a bat to these truths...what do you think will happen?

caused divisions

The truth can cause divisions when some have not seen it yet,and others do see it clearly...as when the reformers saw that the Rc church had departed from truth.

by its controversial doctrines leaving nothing but heart-ache in its wake.

The biblical doctrines are a great comfort to those who see them,,once that light dawns upon them they cannot go back to error and weak teaching any longer as the whole bible opens up to them.:thumbs:

 

[steaver]

Do you have anything substantive to offer to the debate? Do you know what the living water is John and Jesus spoke of? Please share...

Ok, AA's answer is to pretend Jesus and John did not say the Holy Spirit is living water, therefore he does not need to give an answer as to what the living water Jesus spoke of is. Brother Icon agrees with AA's non-answer.

So is there any other Calvinist on the board who would like to answer the question? What is the living water Jesus and John spoke of?

 

[Iconoclast]

Ok, AA's answer is to pretend Jesus and John did not say the Holy Spirit is living water, therefore he does not need to give an answer as to what the living water Jesus spoke of is. Brother Icon agrees with AA's non-answer.

So is there any other Calvinist on the board who would like to answer the question? What is the living water Jesus and John spoke of?

It is clear you did not understand AA response to you...that is why you cannot progress ...:wavey:

 

[DHK]

DHK
You have first hand knowledge or are you talebearing again?

When something disagrees with you are you in the habit of calling the person a liar?

These few...see it clearly in scripture...usually a person such as yourself does not see it, and in fact you oppose it....so the peolpe who study themselves into the position are hungry to learn more about what God has done in electing love, graceand mercy.
Some "teacher" like you seek to hold back this knowledge but the truth shines through and cannot be surpressed.

Again, what happened goes against your theology. So your immature reaction is condescending, unbiblical, and dismissive. You just write people off. I am glad you are not a pastor. You have no compassion whatsoever.

Furthermore you make assumptions that are not true, but are outright lies.

some of whom should not be leading because they are unqualified

Yes, that is what 2Pet.2:1 is talking about--false teachers coming in bringing in divisive doctrine causing splits in churches. They should not be leaders. Those who bring in splits via their Calvinism should never be leaders.

If the church searches out these truths...and the leaders are blind as a bat to these truths...what do you think will happen?

They aren't truths. The box of the man-made system of Calvinism is a false system. Why search out that which is already written in the Constitution of a church to be false.

The truth can cause divisions when some have not seen it yet,and others do see it clearly...as when the reformers saw that the Rc church had departed from truth.

Truth is not found in a man (Calvin), but rather in the Bible. Those who have different beliefs then the church statement of faith and constitution have no right to come and impose it upon others resulting in a church split. They are the false teachers. Theirs is "destructive" doctrine. Their is Heresy in the way that it is "divisive." Thus the term "damnable (destructive) heresies (schisms).

The biblical doctrines are a great comfort to those who see them,,once that light dawns upon them they cannot go back to error and weak teaching any longer as the whole bible opens up to them.

One, they aren't biblical.
Peter denies them. He infers that Limited Atonement is a damnable heresy.

 

[steaver]

It is clear you did not understand AA response to you...that is why you cannot progress ...:wavey:

And we still haven't seen an answer from you.........AA's answer is to pretend Jesus and John never said it......(AA) "Are we really to believe that the Holy Spirit will flow out of us when Christ says He (the Spirit) flows from Him (Christ) and the Father?"

Yes my friends, that is what Jesus said....."He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water". So what was Jesus talking about? Can any Calvinist give an answer? We know what John said Jesus was talking about, but so far two Calvinist here say ""Are we really to believe that the Holy Spirit will flow out of us when Christ says He (the Spirit) flows from Him (Christ) and the Father?"

Reminds us of the conversation Jesus had with Nicodemus when Nic questioned Jesus how can a man be reborn? Nic must have been a Calvinist. He had no understanding of regeneration either.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

When something disagrees with you are you in the habit of calling the person a liar?

I asked if you had first hand knowledge of any such split. If you do not than you are passing on second hand gossip which is forbidden. I called no one a liar, although your recent postings are a wonder to behold:thumbsup:

Again, what happened goes against your theology. So your immature reaction is condescending, unbiblical, and dismissive. You just write people off. I am glad you are not a pastor. You have no compassion whatsoever.

You are slandering Calvinists everywhere with your foul and evil posting. It is a deliberate attack by you. You can feel free to do what you think is biblical, but we have noticed exactly what you are up to and are refuting your increasing deranged postings as if peter was describing Particular redemption. You take eisegesis to a new level.

Furthermore you make assumptions that are not true, but are outright lies.

If you cannot post one then I am not interested in your thoughts about what I post as it is you who are in attack mode.

Yes, that is what 2Pet.2:1 is talking about--false teachers coming in bringing in divisive doctrine causing splits in churches. They should not be leaders. Those who bring in splits via their Calvinism should never be leaders.

Your evil opinion is duly noted.

They aren't truths.

Millions of Christians know it is truth despite your protestation.

The box of the man-made system of Calvinism is a false system. Why search out that which is already written in the Constitution of a church to be false.

Truth is not found in a man (Calvin), but rather in the Bible. Those who have different beliefs then the church statement of faith and constitution have no right to come and impose it upon others resulting in a church split. They are the false teachers. Theirs is "destructive" doctrine. Their is Heresy in the way that it is "divisive." Thus the term "damnable (destructive) heresies (schisms)

.

your denial and hiding behind calvins robes are lame. We know it is just because of your fundy/ dispy system that you say such things.

One, they aren't biblical.
Peter denies them. He infers that Limited Atonement is a damnable heresy.

He does not, but it does warn us about you now doesn't it:laugh:

 

[DHK]

DHK
I asked if you had first hand knowledge of any such split. If you do not than you are passing on second hand gossip which is forbidden. I called no one a liar, although your recent postings are a wonder to behold

I recorded as part of my own testimony: "I have seen." Yes, first hand information. Don't call me a liar. I tire of your continual attacks on my integrity.

You are slandering Calvinists everywhere with your foul and evil posting. It is a deliberate attack by you. You can feel free to do what you think is biblical, but we have noticed exactly what you are up to and are refuting your increasing deranged postings as if peter was describing Particular redemption. You take eisegesis to a new level.

That is like your eisigesis of John 3:16--taking it to a new level in making it apply to only the elect. Pure foolishness.
I have exegeted this verse properly and then provided a number of commentaries that agree. And still you defend your man Calvin. You should be ashamed of yourself.

If you cannot post one then I am not interested in your thoughts about what I post as it is you who are in attack mode.

I did. You assumed what the conditions of said church were, when you didn't know a thing about the situation-- the height of arrogance.

Your evil opinion is duly noted.

It is not evil to respond to your opinion that you say those leaders should not be leaders when you don't even know the church involved. Amazing!

Millions of Christians know it is truth despite your protestation.

Millions of "Christians" think they can get to heaven by their works. They are sincere in their beliefs, but they are sincerely wrong.

your denial and hiding behind calvins robes are lame. We know it is just because of your fundy/ dispy system that you say such things.

My denial of the Calvinists belief system is based on my own study of the Bible.

He does not, but it does warn us about you now doesn't it

You haven't read the verse (2Peter 2:1) very carefully have you?

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

I recorded as part of my own testimony: "I have seen." Yes, first hand information. Don't call me a liar. I tire of your continual attacks on my integrity.

These vague anecdotal stories are useless. Who is to say what happened. Maybe you caused the split yourself...how can any of us know.
seeing your attitude on here it would not be surprising.

That is like your eisigesis of John 3:16--taking it to a new level in making it apply to only the elect. Pure foolishness.

AA toasted you on that passage and you still do not know it yet.He knows what the passage teaches unlike you.

I have exegeted this verse properly and then provided a number of commentaries that agree.

You have not or you would have known AA told you correctly.

And still you defend your man Calvin. You should be ashamed of yourself.

I have not mentioned Calcvin except to tell you to stop hiding behind his robe. He becomes your excuse not to answer these other men who have been offering you correction.

I did. You assumed what the conditions of said church were, when you didn't know a thing about the situation-- the height of arrogance.

Just seeing your attitude on here tells me what I need to know. The Cals were trying to study and serve God you and other fundy's tried to silence them.

It is not evil to respond to your opinion that you say those leaders should not be leaders when you don't even know the church involved. Amazing!

it the same closed minded persons each time, just with different faces.

My denial of the Calvinists belief system is based on my own study of the Bible.

Yes we can see that as you mangle passage after passage but make believe you are taking the high road as you insult several who post on it.

You haven't read the verse (2Peter 2:1) very carefully have you?

More carefully than you ever will:thumbsup:

 

[convicted1]

Ok, AA's answer is to pretend Jesus and John did not say the Holy Spirit is living water, therefore he does not need to give an answer as to what the living water Jesus spoke of is. Brother Icon agrees with AA's non-answer.

So is there any other Calvinist on the board who would like to answer the question? What is the living water Jesus and John spoke of?

The Spirit isn't living water, but Jesus used living water as an allegory to describe the Spirit's works in the lives of the redeemed...the Spirit is Spirit and not H2O...

--And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.(Rev. 22:1,2 KJV)

--And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.(Rev. 22:17 KJV)

The Spirit, the Spirit of God, God the Spirit, 1/3 the Triune Godhead is Spirit and not H20...

 

[convicted1]

Steaver, here's a good book to read concerning what we're now discussing. I loved it!!

http://www.austin-sparks.net/english/books/rivers_of_living_water.html

 

[BrotherJoseph]

I have been reading some of these posts and I must say I think brothers on both sides have taken it too far by resorting to name calling. We are brothers in Christ and should refrain from such teenage sort of behavior when debating scripture on the forum.

 

[steaver]

The Spirit isn't living water, but Jesus used living water as an allegory to describe the Spirit's works in the lives of the redeemed...the Spirit is Spirit and not H2O...

--And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.(Rev. 22:1,2 KJV)

--And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.(Rev. 22:17 KJV)

The Spirit, the Spirit of God, God the Spirit, 1/3 the Triune Godhead is Spirit and not H20...

Then you would agree this water of life, this living water, is the work of the Spirit giving eternal life to the believer. For Jesus said, "But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life."

 

[convicted1]

Then you would agree this water of life, this living water, is the work of the Spirit giving eternal life to the believer. For Jesus said, "But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life."

Yes. Jesus also used the wind as an example of the Spirit, and the Spirit isn't a literal 'puff of air'. The 'water of life' is an allegory of the Spirit, not literal H2O...

 

[steaver]

Yes. Jesus also used the wind as an example of the Spirit, and the Spirit isn't a literal 'puff of air'. The 'water of life' is an allegory of the Spirit, not literal H2O...

Excellent! This really is that crystal clear, no need for jumping through hoops to get to an interpretation. Jesus clearly expresses the Spirit's living water attribute is what gives eternal life (John chapters 3&4) This is Christ becoming one with you by the Spirit, Christ in you, regeneration. You certainly would not declare that one can be regenerated and at the same time not have the living water Jesus speaks of, would you? Of course not. Well, I would hope not, but I will not speak for you.

Now John is very specific...

John 7:37 - "In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink". This refers back to chapter 4 and the conversation Jesus had with the woman at the well, as well as Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus earlier.

John 7:38 - "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water". Jesus said to the woman at the well, "If thou knewest the gift of God (what is the Gift of God? Romans 6:23 - "...the gift of God is eternal life"), and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink (Jesus Christ is that eternal life giving Gift); thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water (the vehicle by which this Gift is administered is by the Holy Spirit's living water).

John 7:39 - "(But this [living water] spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive [they had not received it as of yet]: [Why?] for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"

There simply is no way around this fact that regeneration is a post glorification implementation. The only way one can conclude otherwise is to dismiss these declarations by Jesus Christ and John. And why would one do that? The only reason why one would do that is to save a man-made theology. Why do that? Why dismiss the very word of God just to save a man-made theology handed down from a very flawed human being? Makes no sense to me....the Spirit has always been with man having many different works, but never was the Spirit's regenerating power of living water given to a person before the glorification of Jesus Christ. This is certainly crystal clear....

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning

Sometime after 1330 (1:30pm) Pacific Time, this thread will be closed.

 

[steaver]

Sometime after 1330 (1:30pm) Pacific Time, this thread will be closed.

Why is that???

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Because, I hope by then every one will have said everything they can say about this particular question. It's in nobody's interest to see a thread go over 200 posts has they have in the past.

Why is that???

 

[steaver]

Because, I hope by then every one will have said everything they can say about this particular question. It's in nobody's interest to see a thread go ove 200 posts has they have in the past.

Ok, I just thought it was a 20 page limit and thought it must be something else. Since there is a topic within a topic going on simultaneously, I will start a fresh thread on the original OP.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

That's what usually happens in threads of this length and why this thread is closed at this time.

SNIP
Since there is a topic within a topic going on simultaneously, I will start a fresh thread on the original OP.