Silverhair
Well-Known Member
So all has two different meanings. NO wounder people cannot figure out what the average calvinist means when they post something.
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Does Rom 5:18 teach that Christ died for all men without exception ?
- Thread starter Brightfame52
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So all has two different meanings. NO wounder people cannot figure out what the average calvinist means when they post something.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
If Adam had made a confession of faith in God then the penalty for his sin would have been removed just as it is for ours when we confess faith in God.
I am surprised that you would not know that BF.
That is what the Calvinist ,the Apostle Paul taught.
Brightflame has figured it out, all the Cals on here have figured it out as well. You seem to have missed the memo
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Because I show you the truth of the passage and you cant see it.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Did Faith take away the sin and condemnation of Adam ? Or did Christ take it away ? Jn 1:29
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
1 Jn 3:5
And ye know that he[Christ the Son of God] was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Well then that explains why all the calvinist's have missed what Paul was teaching.
If BF, You and all those other Cal's had understood the memo then they would not have made the errors they have.
The odd part is that you actually think you are supporting the word of God when in fact you are denying it because you study verses out of context.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Still waiting for you to show me the error you think I have made.
Rom 5:12-21 does not support your false view BF.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
God removes the penalty of sin for those that have trusted in Him.
As the verses quoted show us BF.
That is why Christ went to the cross:
1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
Rom 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Our Faith is the reason that the penalty is taken out of the way BF.
If you actually preach then you should know this as it is basic theology.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
You reject the truth of that passage in Vs 18 it shows forth limited atonement. In fact the whole passage Rom 5:12-21 is about the elect, the non elect arent even in the picture. The entire passage is describing the elects experience in Adam, then in Christ
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
@Silverhair
False, Christ took away the penalty of sin for them He died for. Their penalty is taken away while they are in unbelief. Their trusting or believing had nothing to do with Christ dying for their sins and taking away its penalty, they weren't even born. Christ before the elect of this generation were born sinners, had redeemed them from the penalty of sin Heb 9:12
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Redemption here lytrōsis:
Do you deny that Christ obtained the deliverance from the penalty of sin by His death/ blood alone ?
False, Christ took away the penalty of sin for them He died for. Their penalty is taken away while they are in unbelief. Their trusting or believing had nothing to do with Christ dying for their sins and taking away its penalty, they weren't even born. Christ before the elect of this generation were born sinners, had redeemed them from the penalty of sin Heb 9:12
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Redemption here lytrōsis:
- a ransoming, redemption
- deliverance, esp. from the penalty of sin
Do you deny that Christ obtained the deliverance from the penalty of sin by His death/ blood alone ?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned;
Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.
Rom 5:16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.
Rom 5:21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Not limited atonement BF but rather limited salvation as one is only saved through faith in the Son.
Rom 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
This is a hard pill for you to swallow but it is the reality that we see in Rom 5:12-21.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
lol the entire passage is about the elect, their solidarity in Adam and what it resulted in, and their solidarity in Christ and what it resulted in
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
You have people saved before they are even born BF. That is as non biblical as it can get. You have a really weird view of salvation.
The fact the bible disagrees with your strange religion should give you pause but I doubt it will.
The BF version of the bible reads like this
Act 16:30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 So they said, "Nothing, you were saved before you were even born, you and your household. Your faith has nothing to do with it."
But what does the bible tell us about who and when one is saved:
Rom 10:13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Actually Christ's death does not give anyone deliverance from sin but it does provide the means of obtaining that deliverance when we trust in the risen Son.
As the bible tells us BF:
Rom 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
One is only elect when they are in the "elect one" Christ Jesus.
But you are the one that thinks people are saved before they are even born so I will not be looking to you for any biblical truth.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
@Silverhair
Yes from the penalty of sin. Christ obtained it for them centuries ago Here Heb 9:12
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Redemption here means:
Yes from the penalty of sin. Christ obtained it for them centuries ago Here Heb 9:12
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Redemption here means:
- a ransoming, redemption
- deliverance, esp. from the penalty of sin
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Yes which was before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
4. (18) Summary: the two men.
Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.a. One man’s offense… one Man’s righteous act: From this passage, Adam and Jesus are sometimes known as the two men. Between them they represent all humanity, and everyone is identified in either Adam or Jesus. We are born identified with Adam; we may be born again into identification with Jesus.
i. The idea of Adam and Jesus as two representatives of the human race is sometimes called Federal Theology, or Adam and Jesus are sometimes referred to as Federal Heads. This is because under the federal system of government, representatives are chosen and the representative speaks for the people who chose him. Adam speaks for those he represents, and Jesus speaks for His people.
ii. Again, someone may object: “But I never chose to have Adam represent me.” Of course you did! You identified yourself with Adam with the first sin you ever committed. It is absolutely true that we were born into our identification with Adam, but we also choose it with our individual acts of sin.
b. Resulting in condemnation… resulting in justification: The outcome of this election – choosing Adam or Jesus – means everything. If we choose Adam, we receive judgment and condemnation. If we choose Jesus, we receive the free gift of God’s grace and justification.
c. The free gift came to all men: Does this mean that all men are justified by the free gift? Without making a personal choice, every person received the curse of Adam’s offense. Is it therefore true that every person, apart from their personal choice, will receive the benefits of Jesus’ obedience? Not at all. First, Paul makes it clear that the free gift is not like the offense – they are not identical in their result or in their application. Second, over three verses Paul calls the work of Jesus a free gift, and he never uses those words to apply to the work of Adam. It is simply the nature of a gift that it must be received by faith. Finally, Paul clearly teaches throughout the New Testament that all are not saved.
i. In what sense then did the free gift come to all men? It came in the sense that the gift is presented, but not necessarily received.
ii. The idea that all men are saved by the work of Jesus whether they know it or not is known as universalism. “If the doctrine of universalism is being taught here, Paul would be contradicting himself, for he has already pictured men as perishing because of sin.” (Harrison)
https://therocknewark.org/csi-vbs
5. (19) Summary of the contrasts.
For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.a. By one man’s disobedience: Adam’s disobedience makes mankind sinners. Jesus’ obedience makes many righteous. Each representative communicates the effect of their work to their “followers.”
b. Many were made sinners: Paul emphasizes the point again. At the root, we were made sinners by the work of Adam. Of course, we chose Adam when we personally sinned. But the principle remains that since another man made us sinners, we can be made righteous by the work of another man.
i. This is the only way for the work of Jesus to benefit us in any way. If every man must stand for himself, without the representation of either Adam or Jesus, then we will all perish. None would be saved, because each of us sins and falls short of the glory of God. Only a sinless person acting on our behalf can save us, and it is fair for Him to act on our behalf because another man put us in this mess by acting on our behalf.
ii. If I robbed a bank and was found guilty of the crime, a friend could not say to the judge, “Your honor, I love my friend and I want to serve his prison time. I will stand in his place and receive the punishment he deserves.” The judge would reply, “Nonsense. We will not punish you for his crime. That wouldn’t be fair. He did the crime, so he has to pay the penalty.” It would only be fair for another person to pay the penalty if I were guilty because of another person’s work.
iii. The person who says, “I don’t want to be represented by Adam or Jesus; I want to represent myself” doesn’t understand two things. First, they don’t understand that it really isn’t up to us. We didn’t make the rules, God did. Secondly, they don’t understand that our personal righteousness before God is as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6). To God, our personal righteousness is an offensive counterfeit; so standing for yourself guarantees damnation.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
@Zaatar71
Im not in agreement with this part so I have to question all of it. Man makes no choice in this matter. Man was sovereignly put in Adam and likewise Sovereignly chosen in Christ.
The elect never chose Adam, nor never chose Christ, they were put into each federal head b4 they existed to make any choices.
Im not in agreement with this part so I have to question all of it. Man makes no choice in this matter. Man was sovereignly put in Adam and likewise Sovereignly chosen in Christ.
The elect never chose Adam, nor never chose Christ, they were put into each federal head b4 they existed to make any choices.
I agree the wording is not the best. Now as far as what you offer I am not sure of your wording either. Are you a supralapsarian?
I believe God has elected a multitude, but I also believe God has ordained the means of grace to change them and make them go from unwilling rebels, to willing believers. When the Spirit gives them a new heart they come to Jesus and willingly choose Him everyday.
The others remain in the realm of sin and death, never translated out.
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