Does Rom 5:18 teach that Christ died for all men without exception ?

[Brightfame52]

@Zaatar71

Hello BF, Yes/No

Thats not a good start, doublemindedness

I 100% believe that all the elect are justified solely on the basis of the finished work of Christ as their Great High Priest, Mediator, and Surety!

Are you sure about that, all that took place centuries ago, b4 this generation of believers were born sinners.

We know Jesus was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. Rev.13:8
God in the Covenant of Redemption, gave a multitude of fallen sinners to the Son Jn6;37-44
The Son agreed to do the will of the Father in coming as the last Adam, living a sinless and perfect life of law keeping on behalf of all the elect.

okay

He magnified the law Isa.42:21 The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honorable.

God saves sinners. He regenerates us while we were yet sinners.

For sure

Now, as an infralapsarian, I see in scripture that God viewed all mankind as fallen in Adam. Election and preterition were what took place at that time in God's eternal purpose.

That being said, while all these things were certain to come to pass, I believe each aspect of what was planned and ordained had to happen...in time! The fall, redemptive history, the Incarnation, the passive and active obedience of the Son, death, Resurrection, Ascencion Had to happen.

We were certain to be born sinners, enemies of God even as others..rom5, Eph2., then sought out and effectually drawn by the triune God in time.

From the Divine side God might know it differently, but from a human standpoint, revealed truth belongs to us. We are not supratemporal but exist in real time in the real world.
We were always sheep, however lost sheep, who heaven is said to rejoice over when we are found,
Lk.15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.

7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

9 And when she hath found it, she calleth her friends and her neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost.

10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:

12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.

13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.

14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.

15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.

16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.

17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!

18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,

19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.

20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.

22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:

23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:

24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.

26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.

27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.

28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.

29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:

30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.

31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.

32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

I do not get philosophical about these things, but look to sharpen up biblically. Hope this clarifies it.

Yeah its clarified, you are inconsistent. he elect even while experientially lost when we are born sinners, we still legally Justified b4 God based on the merits of Christ alone, Christ Justified the ungodly.

The lost Sheep, Coin, and Son were always Justified b4 God based on the merits of Christ, thats why they were all sought and found and brought into fellowship. The Son was always the Son even while dead and lost. The Sheepwas always a beloved Sheep, even when lost, a Lost Sheep. he Sheep was never condemned, but loved wth an everlasting love.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Silverhair

Foreknowledge [to have knowledge before hand]
God being omniscient foreknows all those that will freely trust in His son and He predestined them to be conformed to the image of His son.

Thats works, God seeing a good action in you. Trusting is a good virtue. Works works works

 

[Zaatar71]

@Zaatar71


Thats not a good start, doublemindedness



Are you sure about that, all that took place centuries ago, b4 this generation of believers were born sinners.



okay



For sure



Yeah its clarified, you are inconsistent. he elect even while experientially lost when we are born sinners, we still legally Justified b4 God based on the merits of Christ alone, Christ Justified the ungodly.

The lost Sheep, Coin, and Son were always Justified b4 God based on the merits of Christ, thats why they were all sought and found and brought into fellowship. The Son was always the Son even while dead and lost. The Sheepwas always a beloved Sheep, even when lost, a Lost Sheep. he Sheep was never condemned, but loved wth an everlasting love.

BF, We were not born saved...sorry. We are not saved from sin, until we are saved from sin.

2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

This is very clear. I think you are not being consistent with these passages.

 

[Silverhair]

Verses for those in a relationship with God are not to be applied to those still slaves to the old man that will not come to the light.

The Jews were not in a right relationship with God if they were they would not need to be told that they need to be.

These words apply just as well to all mankind as they did to the Jews.
Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding;
Pro 3:6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths.
Pro 3:7 Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear the LORD and depart from evil.

Would you not tell anyone they shouuld do such?

EVERYONE starts out under the condemnation of sin and power of darkness

I agree and that is just what we are told in scripture:
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,


But we are also told that there is a solution to our problem:
Rom 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
Rom 3:26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Men cannot make right choices without the draw of God.

"Who then can be saved?" But Jesus looked at [them] and said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." - Matthew 19:25-26

Those verse say nothing about whether man can make right choices but that man cannot save himself only God can.

For whether man can make right choices we can look to
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [good choice, bad choice]

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [good choice]

And we see that all are drawn
Joh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."

Men received, they did not choose.

So lets look at what you have posted here.
Why the calvinist still uses "There is none who seeks after God." is a mystery to me.
if you look at vs 9 {for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin} you will see what the point is that Paul was trying to make. All sin.
We also know that Paul is using hyperbole to make his point by just reading a bit further to Romans 3:13-15.

Who would question that it is through the mercy of God that one is saved. Just as we see in Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Now this one is really a stretch on your part @atpollard.

The Jews who should have known about the coming Messiah rejected Christ the gentiles that did not know to seek Him had Christ manifested/presented to them and many responded in faith.

The gentiles did not seek or ask for Him was because they did not know of Him.

Men do not choose God, God chooses men ...

Now this on is worse than the last one. You should know better than to use this as a general comment about choosing.

Who was Christ speaking to at the time? The apostles.

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair



Thats works, God seeing a good action in you. Trusting is a good virtue. Works works works

Faith is not a work BF.
You should know this but it is obvious that there are a number of things you should know but which you do not.

 

[Silverhair]

BF, We were not born saved...sorry. We are not saved from sin, until we are saved from sin.

2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

This is very clear. I think you are not being consistent with these passages.

@Zaatar71 you have to understand that BF has a different view on any number of things.

 

[Layman]

The only ones that boast are those that think they were chosen B4 creation and that would be the calvinists.

That might be your own personal experience. I don’t know of any Calvinist running around bragging that they were chosen for salvation.

All I know is that there is no reason to boast for the monergist because it was a decision God made before we were born, before we did anything good or bad. For the synergist, they were the ones that enabled God to save them so they have a reason to be boastful.

That is being humble and realizing that you cannot save yourself

Simply being humble doesn’t do any good. Ghandi seemed like a pretty humble fellow, but that doesn’t mean that God granted him repentance and faith.

 

[Zaatar71]

@Zaatar71 you have to understand that BF has a different view on any number of things.

I agree with Bf on most things. He is welcome to have his own view, as I can have mine. It seems as if we differ as to when salvation takes place.
I understand what he offers as there are some verses that can give a certain impression, let me show you;

2Tim1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Here we are clearly told He has saved us, and called us......which was given us In Christ, before the world was!
I see it as our election of grace was given us before the world was and we were elected In Christ.....while we were yet sinners.

We are elect sheep, but in my view, scripture says we were born dead in Adam, children of wrath, even as others.

Because we have always been sheep, BF seems to indicate that we were saved before we were born. God's election is From eternity past throughout time. That is true. He is saying He thinks I am inconsistent on the timing of salvation.

SH, think of it this way. On the cross Jesus declared IT IS FINISHED ! That happened in history past. When Jesus saves sinners today, the accomplished salvation was already finished. When the Spirit quickens an elect person giving them a new heart and enabling them to confess Christ, we are told they are translated from the Kingdom of Darkness to the Kingdom of light.
Because we were in the Kingdom of darkness, I do not see how someone can defend the idea that they were saved, before they were saved.
Bf, knows his bible, he can defend his position.

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning
This thread will be closed no sooner than 0230 (230 am) EDT (Wed)

 

[Silverhair]

That might be your own personal experience. I don’t know of any Calvinist running around bragging that they were chosen for salvation.

All I know is that there is no reason to boast for the monergist because it was a decision God made before we were born, before we did anything good or bad. For the synergist, they were the ones that enabled God to save them so they have a reason to be boastful.

Have you looked at what the calvinists post on here.

You all say you were chosen B4 the foundation of the world. That my friend is boasting in that you think you were so special that God had to pick you out way back then.

By your own words you point to just how special you must have been since he picked you over all those other people. There must have been something that really caught His eye.

So your whole TULIP screams, we are special and we get to brag about how only you were loved that much.

Simply being humble doesn’t do any good. Ghandi seemed like a pretty humble fellow, but that doesn’t mean that God granted him repentance and faith.

That is being humble and realizing that you cannot save yourself @Layman. As we see here
Luk 18:13 "But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!'

How do you jump from what I said to Ghandi?

Ghandi was not saved because he did not believe in Christ Jesus. His being humble had nothing to do with his not being saved.

One constant that I do see from calvinists's is that they try to deflect from the things that point out they failed philosophy rather than deal with them.

 

[Silverhair]

I agree with Bf on most things. He is welcome to have his own view, as I can have mine. It seems as if we differ as to when salvation takes place.
I understand what he offers as there are some verses that can give a certain impression, let me show you;

2Tim1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Here we are clearly told He has saved us, and called us......which was given us In Christ, before the world was!
I see it as our election of grace was given us before the world was and we were elected In Christ.....while we were yet sinners.

We are elect sheep, but in my view, scripture says we were born dead in Adam, children of wrath, even as others.

Because we have always been sheep, BF seems to indicate that we were saved before we were born. God's election is From eternity past throughout time. That is true. He is saying He thinks I am inconsistent on the timing of salvation.

SH, think of it this way. On the cross Jesus declared IT IS FINISHED ! That happened in history past. When Jesus saves sinners today, the accomplished salvation was already finished. When the Spirit quickens an elect person giving them a new heart and enabling them to confess Christ, we are told they are translated from the Kingdom of Darkness to the Kingdom of light.
Because we were in the Kingdom of darkness, I do not see how someone can defend the idea that they were saved, before they were saved.
Bf, knows his bible, he can defend his position.

@Layman BF knows the bible needed to defend his calvinist position but I do question whether he knows his bible.

It has been shown many times that what he things is biblical is clearly not and yet he will not even consider that he could be wrong.

That is just blind allegiance to a position.

 

[Zaatar71]

@Layman BF knows the bible needed to defend his calvinist position but I do question whether he knows his bible.

It has been shown many times that what he things is biblical is clearly not and yet he will not even consider that he could be wrong.

That is just blind allegiance to a position.

You do not understand the romans 5 passage.

 

[Layman]

That my friend is boasting in that you think you were so special that God had to pick you out way back then.

He picks His elect for His glory, not ours. God is the only one who can boast in our salvation.

There must have been something that really caught His eye.

I don't think you understand how election works.

Romans 9:11 (ESV) - though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls

Now, in your case, God must have looked into the future and seen what a good person you would be, that you would exercise faith by your own free will. Your position is the only one that calls for boasting.

His being humble had nothing to do with his not being saved.

That's my point.

 

[Silverhair]

You do not understand the romans 5 passage.

What do I not understand about the Rom 5 passage?

You make the claim but you have not provided any counter view.

 

[Silverhair]

He picks His elect for His glory, not ours. God is the only one who can boast in our salvation.

Not according to the calvinist view. See there you go boasting again and you do not even realize it. You think you are one of those pre chosen elect.
You boast that you were picked B4 creation so you must think you are in some way special or why else would He pick you and not some other person or even all people since He desires all to come to repentance.

I don't think you understand how election works.

Romans 9:11 (ESV) - though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls

Now, in your case, God must have looked into the future and seen what a good person you would be, that you would exercise faith by your own free will. Your position is the only one that calls for boasting.

Oh I understand election. I just do not agree with what you call election. You think that election is unto salvation and the bible shows that we are one of the elect when we are in Christ not before.

We have to believe in Christ B4 we are one of the elect/saved but your calvinist teachers have it backward.
"A man is not saved because he believes in Christ, he believes in Christ because he is saved." Loraine Boettner

That's my point.

Being humble and realizing that you cannot save yourself requires the ability to make real choices, in other words have a free will. But I have to ask, how does a person boast while being humble? The two are polar opposites.

As we see here
Luk 18:13 "But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!'

Is the tax collector boasting or being humble before God?

That is the odd thing I see with the calvinist, they call faith a work when the bible clearly says it is not but say thinking they were picked B4 creation for an unconditional election via an irresistible grace to be part of a limited atonement is not boasting.

The calvinist boast that they were picked B4 creation the bible believer humbles himself and realizes that he could not save himself and throws himself on the rock of salvation, Jesus Christ.

 

[David Lamb]

Have you looked at what the calvinists post on here.

You all say you were chosen B4 the foundation of the world. That my friend is boasting in that you think you were so special that God had to pick you out way back then.

Perhaps you could quote an example of a Calvinist saying anything like, "I think I am so special because God had to pick me before the foundation of the earth to be saved." I know it was for nothing special in me that I am saved. As John wrote of those who are saved:

“But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” (Joh 1:12-13 NKJV)

The Scottish Christian Robert Murray M'Cheyne wrote a hymn which includes this verse

Chosen, not for good in me,
Wakened up from wrath to flee,
Hidden in the Saviour's side,
By the Spirit sanctified,
Teach me, Lord, on earth to show
By my love how much I owe.

 

[Brightfame52]

Does Rom 5:18 teach that Christ died for all men without exception ? 3Now why does it say " unto Justification of Life" ? Notice Rom 5:18

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

I will explain that, and this will show even moreso why this verse teaches a limited atonement. The words all men are a stumbling block to the carnal natural mind and heart, yet the all men are limited to only some, all of which receive Justification unto life !

One of the reasons is because all men whom Christ represented by His one act of Righteous obedience unto death, even the death of the cross, are Justified and entitled to life eternal. John Gill writes:

even so by the righteousness of one, the free gift came upon all men to justification of life; the righteousness of Christ being freely imputed without works, as it is to all the men that belong to the second Adam, to all his seed and offspring, is their justification of life, or what adjudges and entitles them to eternal life.

Because Jesus Christ has erased their sin debt by His Obedience, and He has actively obeyed Gods Law perfectly FOR THEM, which entitels them to inherit Eternal Life.

Remember what Jesus told the young rich ruler when he asked Him Matt 19:16-17

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?


17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.


You see that ? Jesus told him in answering what he needs to do that he may have eternal life, Luke wrote that he asked about inheriting eternal life Lk 18:18

18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?


What was Jesus respond ? Notice : " but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."


Thats right, if the young man could keep the commandments, and that perfectly, he would enter into, inherit eternal life !

And , so every sinner Christ lived and died for, His act of obedience, they have kept the commandments, through Him. Just as they disobyed the Holy Commandment of God in adam, they kept and obeyed the Holy Commandments through Jesus Christ, hence, they are entitled to eternal life.

Let me explain more by looking at the very next verse after Rom 5:18, which is Vs 19 which basically says the same thing as Vs 18, but in a slightly different way Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous


Here we find that by the obedience of one, Jesus Christ, many shall be made righteous or just. The word for righteous, the greek word dikaios and means:

just; especially, just in the eyes of God; righteous; in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God; So because of the one act of righteous obedience of Christ for them He represented, they are made righteous, and God in Him reckons them Righteous and keeping the commandments of God, as Jesus told the young man in Matt 19:17

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

So thats one reason why, all those men and women in Rom 5:18 that Justification unto life came upon are entitled to eternal life !

 

[Zaatar71]

What do I not understand about the Rom 5 passage?

You make the claim but you have not provided any counter view.

I posted two posts from a google search, that show the basic position, looks like you did not read them.

 

[Piper 2]

Rom 5:18

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

No by no means does Rom 5:18 teach that Christ died for all without exception, just because the word all is used. In fact, to the spiritually discerning it teaches the contrary, it teaches the limited atonement, or that Christ did not die for all men without exception, simply because the all men here that Justification of life came upon is limited to only some men, so the word all can only apply to all that received upon them Justification of life.

For its clear from other scripture that all men without exception are Justified before God, for instance Matt 5:45

45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Acts 24:15

And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

1 Cor 6:1

Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?

2 Pet 2:9

9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Rev 22:11

11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Now the word unjust does mean being found guilty before God, in Gods court of law,

describes being found guilty in God's court of law, i.e. as a binding, legal infraction against His law which calls for divine retribution,
unjust, unrighteous, wicked.of one who breaks God's laws, unrighteous, sinful,

So basically its one God reckons guilty before Him as a law beaker.

Good Word, bro.

 

[Piper 2]

Once again BF you have missed what we are being told because you disregarded context. [Romans 5:12-21]

What was Adam’s sin? Disobedience. [Genesis 2:15-16; Genesis 3:6, Genesis 3:17]. All mankind has a sinful nature as a result of Adam's sin [Romans 3:23].
As a result of his [Adam's] sin, human death and spiritual separation from God entered the world. This became the common lot of all Adam's descendants. [Romans 5:13-14] even over those who had not sinned as Adam had.

What was Christ’s righteousness? Obedience, by which he obeyed the Father in his incarnation [Philippians 2:8.]

Paul made it very clear that the "all" who died in Adam is the same "all" who can be made alive in Christ.
This salvation cannot be universal, however, because that would be untrue to our experience. So obviously that free gift did not equate to salvation for all men. But like the judgment, it came. God justifies those that freely placed their faith [Romans 3:25] in the finished work of Jesus the Christ. [Romans 3:26]

Contextually, {Romans 5:12-21} we can see that justification is contingent on faith, while the provision of justification for all (through faith) is as universal as the problem of sin and condemnation, in the same way as Romans 11:32 states that God desires to have mercy on the same “all” that have been bound to disobedience. That certainly includes everyone.

Christ’s gift to us is far greater than Adam’s sin, but it does not automatically extend to everyone. [Romans 3:26]

Arminians like you have to jump through a lot of hoops to support your false beliefs.