Does Romans 8 support Calvinism's Total Depravity?

Salvation is about mercy, not justice. By moving into the category of justice you beg the question that we deserve to be given the ability if we do not have it. God is unjust, therefore, because we deserve to be given this ability.

Why does a person deserve this? What has the sinner in himself that can merit this? </font>[/QUOTE]Again, I am not objecting to the notion that God might only choose to save some and not others. I agree that it would be meriful of God to save just one of us. I also don't believe that any of us deserve anything at all. I'm not debating about what God could have or couldn't have justly done, I'm debating about what the scripture reveals He has done.

The scripture reveals that He loves the world and has sent his son into the world to save the lost. Christ came to reconcile the world to God and he has given us the message of reconcilation which was given for the purpose to bring reconcilation to all who hear it. It is a message that is sent to every creature.

The reproach of God comes in the idea that this message cannot be responded to by the majority of those who hear it yet they will be judged and condemned for their response on the final day.

Calvinists answer this arguement by pointing to the demands of the law and say that God demanded people to follow the law and they couldn't do it, so what is the difference. There is a big difference. The law wasn't ever given with the purpose of bringing reconcilation. The gospel was. The law bound men over to disobedience. God bound all men over to disobedience so that he might show mercy to all. How? Through the message of reconcilation.

 

I skipped the other part because this is the meat of the issue:

The problem you have is that you believe Paul is contrasting the elect (those being shown mercy/honorable vessels) with the non-elect (those being hardened/dishonorable vessels). Correct me if I'm wrong.

I can assure you that is not what Paul is contrasting. He is contrasting the Jew and the Gentile. Back away from the text and look at it objectively from this perspective and try to understand what I'm mean. I know that it is difficult to read a text from a different perspective when you have only read it one way for so long. At least I know that it was for me when I was a Calvinist.

The Jews are being hardened (not certainly condemned, but temporarily hardened for a redemptive purpose) and the Gentiles are being shown mercy (by being granted entrance into Covenant with God/ingrafted into the vine).

This is why Paul sums up Romans 9 with these words:

30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law *of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, *by the works of the law.

You can see that he is contrasting the Jews (in general) and the Gentiles (in general) throughout this passage and therefore it is incorrect to assume that the Calvinistic elect and non-elect are being contrasted.

Also, while you read through the chapter look at the objections being raised. Many Calvinist presume these would be the objections of a free will Arminian, but instead look at them as being from a Jew and I think you will see they make more sense.

 

Yes. Its all good.

1) Paul is addressing a question of injustice on God's part. How does the objection raised here ("Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?") differ from your objection to condemnation without ability?

Good Question: First I will deal with the objection of Injustice:

THE JEWS OBJECTION: The Jew would be objecting to Paul's message because according to Paul God is showing mercy to dirty Gentiles and he is hardening the "chosen" seed of Abraham, the Jews. This is the objection of injustice in Romans 9.

MY OBJECTION: It brings reproach upon God to invite all men without granting all men the ability to respond and then judge them for that response on the final day. It is unjust to hold a man responsible when he is not response-able.

Now, the objection of finding fault and resisting his will:

THE JEWS OBJECTION: If God were to say, "I will show mercy to whom I please, even dirty Gentiles, and I will hardened whom I please, even the Jews. The Jew, who has been hardened, would object to being hardened by saying, "Then why does he still find fault? For who resists his will?" (NOTE: The Jew has been hearing and yet rejecting the revelation of God for years as God has patiently held out his hands to them all along (Rom. 10:21) and has longed to gather them under his wings of salvation (Matt. 23:37). But they, for the most part, have rebelled from His revelations, thus they were hardened. But this hardening is not unto certain condemnation, for if you read Romans 11 you will see that the ingrafting of the Gentiles will provoke the hardened Jews to envy so that they might be saved as well (vs. 14) for God bound them over to disobedience so as to have mercy on them (vs. 30-32) not to condemn them.)

MY OBJECTION: I object to a dogma that teaches men are born hardened to the point that they never are capable of hearing and responding in faith to God's revelation. See the difference? Romans 9 is teaching that rebellious men who have continually heard and refused the truth are being temporarily hardened so that they might be provoked and saved. Calvinism teaches that men are born hardened (depraved) having never had the opportunity to even understand or respond in faith to God's revelations and this hardening is unto certain condemnation.

2) Some vessels are prepared for mercy leading to glory, but others for destruction and wrath (not temporary hardening).

Romans 11 refers to the hardening as temporary and certainly shows it is not certainly unto condemnation in verse 14 and 30-32. The "vessels of mercy" are those who believe, whether from the Jews or the Gentiles. The vessels of wrath who fitted themselves for destruction despite God's longsuffering is a reference to the Jews who are now being hardened.

3) The vessels prepared for glory include both Jews and Gentiles.

Agreed, but Paul is pointing to the unaccepted fact that the Gentiles are among these vessels being prepared.

4) The question of whether God is unjust for creating anything expressly for the purpose of pouring His wrath out upon it is dismissed.

That is your error. You think this passage is about God creating men for the purpose of pouring out his wrath upon them. The wrath is being poured out upon those who God held out his hands to (Romans 10:21) and who he desired to gather under his wings (Matt. 23:37) and that wrath can still be avoided if they don't continue in their unbelief (Rom. 11:23). God bound all men over to disobedience so as to show them all mercy, not so as to pour out his wrath. (Rom. 11:30-32)