Does the Anglican/Church Of England Anf Lutheryn Church teach Sacramental grace?

[The Biblicist]

One of the things that saddens me greatly is when one group takes a perfectly good word and perverts it, then others embrace the perverted meaning and reads it into those who are using the term correctly - that is prejudice and/ or ignorence talking. The reality is that a sacrement is nothing more then an act of allegience, no matter what Rome says, to call baptism or the Lord's table a sacrement in reformed terms is to say it is a public declaration of our allegence to Christ Jesus.

Why adopt a Roman term that has a history of conveying literal grace! It would seem the "Reformed" definition is the guilty party! It is never used in scripture for baptism or the Supper! Yet, Reformed Baptists adopt this Romanized term and try to reinvent it!

Wow, well where do your "baptist" toots lie if not in the protestant reformation?

First, our "toots" lie in the Scriptures and specifically those scriptures which provide a predictive forecast on the characteristics of Post-Apostolic development and doctrines of Apostate Christianity and the development and treatment of New Testament Christianity. This inspired guide provides the proper format to INTERPRET so-called "church history."

Second, our "toots" lie in interpreting so-called "church history" through the lenses of this Bibical predictive format.

How is the reformed baptist church government alien to the scriptures? How is our practise of baptism alien to the scriptures, and our adminsitration of the Lord's supper? These are serious charges that shouldn't just eb thrown about unless one can actually back them up with facts!

Most "Reformed" Baptist churches are "elder rule" rather than congregational rule under elder leadership.

The leading Reformed Baptist Churches (MacArthur, Piper, etc.) receive sprinkled, poured or immersed believers into their membership regardless who administered it as long as it was performed after a profession of faith. This is admitted by Dr. John MacArther in his debate with R.C. Sproul in the question and answer part of his debate. This is admitted by Piper's church in their church documents. This is admitted by the pastoral staff of Alister Beggs congregation, etc.

Their observation of the Lord's Supper is open when the scriptures teach it is to be closed to the metaphorical body partaking it. I realize that I need to demonstrate this point but I believe I can to any fair objective Bible Student.

 

[The Biblicist]

If I am not mistaken, Dr. Cole was a member of Bryan Station Baptist Church, Lexington, Kentucky, when he passed on to glory.

Cheers,

Jim

Correct! I have been a good friend of the late Pastor Alfred Gormley for many many years. Bryan Station reprints most of Dr.Cole's written works. I attended Lexington Baptist College, in Lexington Kentucky and sat under Dr. Roscoe Brong and Dr. Edward Overby among others. I was priviledged to sit under Dr. Roy O. Beman in Seminary. All great men of God.

 

[Yeshua1]

One of the things that saddens me greatly is when one group takes a perfectly good word and perverts it, then others embrace the perverted meaning and reads it into those who are using the term correctly - that is prejudice and/ or ignorence talking. The reality is that a sacrement is nothing more then an act of allegience, no matter what Rome says, to call baptism or the Lord's table a sacrement in reformed terms is to say it is a public declaration of our allegence to Christ Jesus.



Whilst you are entitled to your view in the grand scheme of things it is worthless my freind, for it is simply your view!



Wow, well where do your "baptist" toots lie if not in the protestant reformation?



How is the reformed baptist church government alien to the scriptures? How is our practise of baptism alien to the scriptures, and our adminsitration of the Lord's supper? These are serious charges that shouldn't just eb thrown about unless one can actually back them up with facts!

Do the reformed see there being a 'spiritual" presene in the midst of the ordiannces? that there is a presense of Jesus with you as you partake of the elements, or get water baptised?

Think most baptists would just react to there being a "spiritual presense' seen in the ordinances, as we just don't find that example in the scriptures!

You would still hold to one MUST place faith in jesus and Him alone to be saved thru faith alone, correct? that the ordinances do NOT affect salvation in any fashion, that they are after that fact?

 

[Jim1999]

The Biblicist,,,,,,,,,,I guess you know where I come from theologically. I went to Toronto Baptist Seminary under T.T. Shields and Jarvis St. Baptist Church. The other American professor we had was Dr. G.B. Fletcher of Virginia. He taught Systematic Theology. Great men of God and the word.

Cheers, and bless,

Jim

 

[Wittenberger]

For a Lutheran perspective on Justification/Salvation/Grace check out: http://www.lutherwasnotbornagain.com

 

[Wittenberger]

Lutherans believe that grace (God's unmerited favor) is given to the believer by hearing the Word, in baptism, and in Holy Communion. These are the means of grace. Contrary to popular belief, Lutherans do not believe that baptism is the only time that God saves.

Yes, it is God who saves, not man by doing good works, and not man by praying a "Sinner's Prayer". God does it all.

for more details: http://www.lutherwasnotbornagain.com

 

[The Biblicist]

Lutherans believe that grace (God's unmerited favor) is given to the believer by hearing the Word, in baptism, and in Holy Communion. These are the means of grace. Contrary to popular belief, Lutherans do not believe that baptism is the only time that God saves.

Yes, it is God who saves, not man by doing good works, and not man by praying a "Sinner's Prayer". God does it all.

for more details: http://www.lutherwasnotbornagain.com

Luther believed in justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone without works. Luther believed in total depravity and complete inability of the human will. Do you believe what Luther believed in these areas?

Luther was inconsistent with the ordinances and wrong.

 

[Walter]

Lutherans believe that grace (God's unmerited favor) is given to the believer by hearing the Word, in baptism, and in Holy Communion. These are the means of grace. Contrary to popular belief, Lutherans do not believe that baptism is the only time that God saves.

Yes, it is God who saves, not man by doing good works, and not man by praying a "Sinner's Prayer". God does it all.

for more details: http://www.lutherwasnotbornagain.com

Good to have a Lutheran perspective on sacraments. Welcome to the board. Are you attending an LCMS parish?

 

[Yeshua1]

Luther believed in justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone without works. Luther believed in total depravity and complete inability of the human will. Do you believe what Luther believed in these areas?

Luther was inconsistent with the ordinances and wrong.

same problem John Calvin had!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Im a fan of Martin Luther & Calvin but really disagree with the Catholic like adherences to the sacramental....that from my perspective demeans the objectives of purity & holiness....however who am I to criticize a fellow Christian struggling to interpret Gods plan for humanity. However I am closer to Old Regular & Primitive Baptist orthodoxy than I would be to the sacramental adherents.

 

[Yeshua1]

Lutherans believe that grace (God's unmerited favor) is given to the believer by hearing the Word, in baptism, and in Holy Communion. These are the means of grace. Contrary to popular belief, Lutherans do not believe that baptism is the only time that God saves.

Yes, it is God who saves, not man by doing good works, and not man by praying a "Sinner's Prayer". God does it all.

for more details: http://www.lutherwasnotbornagain.com

Do you hold that a sinner is fully justified before God by faith in jesus. or that the water and communion also part of that process?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Luther believed in justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone without works. Luther believed in total depravity and complete inability of the human will. Do you believe what Luther believed in these areas?

Luther was inconsistent with the ordinances and wrong.

It would enhance your position Biblicist for you to expound on your blanket statements (esp., the last one)....I am struggling to understand, so please clarify.

 

[Yeshua1]

Im a fan of Martin Luther & Calvin but really disagree with the Catholic like adherences to the sacramental....that from my perspective demeans the objectives of purity & holiness....however who am I to criticize a fellow Christian struggling to interpret Gods plan for humanity. However I am closer to Old Regular & Primitive Baptist orthodoxy than I would be to the sacramental adherents.

How so? Do you see the process of salvation same way they would?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

How so? Do you see the process of salvation same way they would?

Of course....Its all of God, not man. Dont you feel that way yourself?

 

[Yeshua1]

Of course....Its all of God, not man. Dont you feel that way yourself?

yes, but PB and Hyper cal see them elected and regerated almost at physical birth, or born in that state, so can be saved apart from them placing faith in jesus also!

Don't hold to the Great Commission not for today!

 

[Yeshua1]

It would enhance your position Biblicist for you to expound on your blanket statements (esp., the last one)....I am struggling to understand, so please clarify.

Luthor and calvin had right understanding of justification, but stilled had mistakes in views on the ordinances, as calvin tied water baptism to infants, making them part of the faith community, while Luthor saw it as part of salvation/completing the process in some fashion!