Does The Bible Permit The Christian To Drink Beverage Alcohol?

[standingfirminChrist]

American Tract Society says 'when it giveth his color in the cup' means when it is bubbling.... if that is any help.

Sorry for the double post, was not thinking. Plus, with my eyes, I do miss things from time to time.

 

[Gina B]

No problem.
I'm sure people understand that it's easy to miss stuff. The time to edit posts is pretty limited anyhow. The double post problem is usually meant for posting the same thing twice in separate parts of the board.

Now, as to the type of wine, I read in a commentary that "when it gives color to the cup" mean when it sparkles, and it does sparkle when it bubbles, so I think you're on to something!

When does wine sparkle/bubble? When it's mixed.

So I think it's reasonable to say that in the verse you gave, Proverbs 23:31, the person is being admonished not to drink mixed wine, which means that the wine Jesus speaks of as being ok for celebration, depression, or illness is plain wine, provided one doesn't drink it in excess.

That seems to take away any contradictions between verses that say you can/can't drink.

 

[OldRegular]

What was that fruit of the vine they drank at the Last Supper?

 

[Hope of Glory]

"Look" is in the imperfect. It's much more than simply experiencing. It means more "to dwell on".

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Funny, the Hebrew doesn't even mention 'to dwell on'

 

[standingfirminChrist]

What was the fruit of the vine at the Last Supper? We do not know.

'When the plain sense of scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense. Therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning, unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages, and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise. God, in revealing His Word, neither intends nor permits the reader to be confused. He wants His children to understand.'
David L. Cooper

 

[Linda64]

Great efforts have been made to distinguish the harmless from the intoxicating wines of Scripture, and to show that inspiration has in all cases approved the former alone, and condemned the latter, directly or indirectly. It is not necessary, however, to do this in order to demonstrate that so far as the use of wine leads to inebriation it is pointedly condemned by the word of God. Sin and shame are connected with the first mention of wine in the Bible, and with many subsequent cases, Ge 9:20; 19:31-36; 1Sa 25:36-37; 2Sa 13:28; 1Ki 20:12-21; Es 1:10-11; Da 5:23; Re 17:2. It is characterized as a deceitful mocker, Pr 21:1; as fruitful in miseries, Pr 23:29-35; in woes, Isa 5:22; in errors, Isa 28:1-7; and in impious folly, Isa 5:11-12; 56:12; Ho 4.11. The use of it is in some cases expressly forbidden, Le 10:9; Nu 6:3; and in other cases is alluded to as characteristic of the wicked, Joe 3:3; Am 6:6. Numerous cautions to beware of it are given, 1Sa 1:14; Pr 23:31; 31:4-5; 1Ti 3:3; and to tempt other to use it is in one passage made the occasion of a bitter curse, Hab 2:15. On the other hand, whatever approval was given in Palestine to the moderate use of wine, can hardly apply to a country where wine is an imported or manufactured article, often containing not a drop of the juice of the grape; or if genuine and not compounded with drugs, still enforced with distilled spirits. The whole state of the case, moreover, is greatly modified by the discovery of the process of distilling alcohol, and by the prevalence of appalling evils now inseparable from the general use of any intoxicating drinks. Daniel and the Rechabites saw good reason for total abstinence from wine, Jer 35:14; Da 1:8; and the sentiment of Paul, on a matter involving the same principles, is divinely commended to universal adoption, Ro 14:21; 1Co 8:13.

American Tract Society Dictionary, Wine

 

[Hope of Glory]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
Funny, the Hebrew doesn't even mention 'to dwell on'

Oh, but it does. The verb is in the imperfect. The imperfect expresses an action, process, or condition which is incomplete (not a single action) and has a wide range of meaning. (I could give you the entire lesson, if you're interested.) This exact word, in the Hebrew says, "don't stare at"; don't dwell on it and be entranced by it. It's most definitely not talking about a single look.

Now, I doubt that anyone here would say that someone who is obsessed with alcohol is not sinning. But, the Bible does not support the idea that mere consumption of alcohol is sin; in fact, it says the opposite.

You can twist and wrest what the words actually say all you want, but that does not change the written words. I, for one, believe what the Scriptures say over the interpretation of men who don't believe what the actually words say.

If you look at the context of verses 29-35, you will see that it is talking about intoxication (drunkenness)and not merely the consumption of alcohol.

When the plain sense of scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense. Therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning, unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages, and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise. God, in revealing His Word, neither intends nor permits the reader to be confused. He wants His children to understand.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Take it at what it says, and don't read things into it such as "wine doesn't really mean wine".

 

[standingfirminChrist]

7200. ra'ah
Search for H7200 in KJVSL
har ra'ah raw-aw'

a primitive root; to see, literally or figuratively (in numerous applications, direct and implied, transitive, intransitive and causative):--advise self, appear, approve, behold, X certainly, consider, discern, (make to) enjoy, have experience, gaze, take heed, X indeed, X joyfully, lo, look (on, one another, one on another, one upon another, out, up, upon), mark, meet, X be near, perceive, present, provide, regard, (have) respect, (fore-, cause to, let) see(-r, -m, one another), shew (self), X sight of others, (e-)spy, stare, X surely, X think, view, visions.

I do not see the words 'to dwell on' there. I know I am blind, but I am not that blind.

 

[gb93433]

I would say this: don't do anything which would hinder your testimony. But do those things which would give credibility to your testimony and glorify God.

 

[Hope of Glory]

First of all, Strong's is a concordance, not a dictionary. Second of all, it is based on the KJV, and not on the original languages. (Although Strong himself did do some works independently of the KJV, the concordance is very weak on the original languages.)

I can see (pun intended) that you don't intend to look into the grammar, so, in order to keep you from having to look up what the imperfect actually means, I'll do it for you:

08811 Imperfect

The imperfect expresses an action, process or condition which is incomplete, and it has a wide range of meaning:

1a) It is used to describe a single (as opposed to a repeated) action in the past; it differs from the perfect in being more vivid and pictorial. The perfect expresses the “fact”, the imperfect adds colour and movement by suggesting the “process” preliminary to its completion.

he put forth his hand to the door
it came to a halt
I began to hear

1b) A phrase such as “What seekest thou?”, refers not only to the present, but assumes that the search has continued for some time.

Why do you weep?
Why refuse to eat?
Why are you distressed?

These relate not so much as to one occasion, as to a continued condition.

2) The kind of progression or imperfection and unfinished condition of the action may consist it its frequent repetition.

2a) In the present:

it is “said” today
a wise son “maketh glad” his father

2b) In the past:

“and so he did” — regularly, year by year
a mist “used to go up”
the fish which “we used to eat”
the manna “came down” — regularly
he “spoke” — repeatedly

3) The imperfect is used to express the “future”, referring not only to an action which is about to be accomplished but one which has not yet begun:

3a) This may be a future from the point of view of the real present; as:

Now “shalt thou see what I will do”
“We will burn” thy house

3b) It may be a future from any other point of view assumed; as:

he took his son that “was to reign”
she stayed to see what “should be done”

4) The usage of 3b may be taken as the transitive to a common use of the imperfect in which it serves for an expression of those shades of relation among acts and thoughts for which English prefers the conditional moods. Such actions are strictly “future” in reference to the assumed point of relation, and the simple imperfect sufficiently expresses them; e.g.

of every tree thou “mayest eat”
“could we know”
he “would” say

5a) The imperfect follows particles expressing “transition”, “purpose”, “result” and so forth as, “in order that”, “lest”; e.g.

say thou art my sister, “that it may be well with thee”
let us deal wisely with the nation, “lest it multiplies”

5b) When however there is a strong feeling of “purpose”, or when it is meant to be strongly marked, then of course the moods are employed; e.g.

raise me up “that I may requite them”
who will entice Ahab “that he may go up”
what shall we do “that the see may be calm”

The moods are also employed to express that class of
future actions which we express in the “optative”

“may I die”
“may” the LORD “establish” his word
“may” the child “live”

Pierce, L. Tense Voice Mood. Woodside Bible Fellowship.: Ontario