preacher4truth
Active Member
Hey man, you continued this argument, and engaged me, and 'somehow' I cannot PM you.
But I digress out of respect for Squire Robertsson.
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Does the call of Jonah teach us something about God?
- Thread starter Skandelon
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Hey man, you continued this argument, and engaged me, and 'somehow' I cannot PM you.
But I digress out of respect for Squire Robertsson.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
I regret that...Now back on topic.
The last relevant posts that were on topic were posts in the 38-39 range.
preacher4truth
Active Member
quantumfaith
Active Member
The promised "seed" of Abraham included both Jews and Gentiles not merely Jews and so there is no election of races to salvation because no other race exist except Jews and Gentiles and they are already included. So all mankind witout distinction is elected to salvation already. Your "election to salvation" amounts to nothing more than corporate qualification for access to the potential of salvation.
However, no such dichotomy like that exists in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 or Ephesians 1:4 as both define the salvation chosen "to" in INDIVIDUALISTIC means not corporate means as there is no such thing as corporate salvation and therefore cannot be any such thing as corporate election as election is "to salvation."
However, we are not speaking about His "being" but his purpose versus application of that purpose and God Himself makes a distinction between the eternal purpose and its excution IN TIME - Isa. 46:10. He says what he has already purposed "I SHALL do" proving that execution of an eternal purpose occurs in time and space.
Second, the parable of the wedding proves there is a distinction between the GENERAL call which provides NO PROPER DRESSED GUEST to the wedding and the EFFECTUAL call which provides ALL PROPER DRESSED GUESTS for the wedding ("compel").
False! The effectual call ("compel") is explicitly attributed as the cause or reason for the entrance for ALL PROPERLY DRESSED GUESTS. You may not like it but you cannot disprove it and you know it! Hence, general invitation produced NO PROPERLY DRESSED guiest and EFFECTUAL INVITATION produce EVERY PROPERLY DRESSED GUEST.
Moreover, the EFFECTUAL INVITATION is distinctly explained to be by DIRECT COMMAND and PURPOSE thus the CHOICE of God to provide the wedding with EFFECTUALL CALLED guests and thus "many are called NONEFFETUALLY but FEW ARE EFFECTUALLY CHOSEN."
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Well we know both Jews and Gentiles are included NOW because we have the scriptures revealing us this truth...this is the 'mystery' of the gospel Paul referenced. Jews were thought to be the "elect" of God up to this point and Paul (along with others) were revealing that it was God's plan all along to save whosoever believes, even Gentiles. God grafted in (elected) the Gentiles too, according to Rom 11...and many other texts.
Do a word study on 'mystery' in the NT and this will become evident. Even Peter didn't realize this truth until he had the white sheet dream, remember?
No, we have it as early as Genesis that both are included "in Christ" (Gal. 3;17) as God promised Abraham a "seed" from many nations including a nation from his own loins.
The mystery was not the salvation of Gentiles as they were already promised and accepted as proselytes but the mystery was that they would be accepted EQUALLY in the new house of God - the congregational body of Christ whereas the former public house of God errected a "middle wall of partition" so that saved Gentiles could not recognized in public worship on the same equal level.
Above is your greater problem which you totally avoided and for good reason!
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Well, the distinction even you are now acknowledging (the same one Peter came to acknowledge after his white sheet dream), is the distinction regarding God's election of Israel and then the Gentiles. This author explains it well:
Today there is a "mystery" aspect of the gospel...
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; that the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel . . . that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ (Eph. 3:5-8).
In this age, therefore, there is a distinctive element to the content of the gospel which is called "the mystery of the gospel" (see Eph. 6:19 and compare Col. 1:26-27; 4:3). This new revelation is that the Gentiles are fellow-heirs and fellow-members of the body, and fellow-partakers of the promise (Eph. 3:6). Such equality—Jew and Gentile united together in one body—was previously unknown. The distinctive message of the church is that Jew and Gentile alike may believe the gospel and be united together into ONE BODY (1 Cor. 12:13) for the purpose of manifesting and bearing witness to Christ who is the sovereign Head of this unique and living organism!
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; that the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel . . . that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ (Eph. 3:5-8).
In this age, therefore, there is a distinctive element to the content of the gospel which is called "the mystery of the gospel" (see Eph. 6:19 and compare Col. 1:26-27; 4:3). This new revelation is that the Gentiles are fellow-heirs and fellow-members of the body, and fellow-partakers of the promise (Eph. 3:6). Such equality—Jew and Gentile united together in one body—was previously unknown. The distinctive message of the church is that Jew and Gentile alike may believe the gospel and be united together into ONE BODY (1 Cor. 12:13) for the purpose of manifesting and bearing witness to Christ who is the sovereign Head of this unique and living organism!
This signifies the distinction as to why someone of that day would have referred to a Jew as an "elect one." And more importantly to our conversation, signifies the corporate aspect of God election of Israel first and then the ingrafting of the Gentiles (as clearly expounded upon in Rom. 11).
Oh, and believe me when I say that I'm not ignoring any part of your post. I just feel it is important to establish the foundational point first before moving on to discuss aspects that often hinge upon the main issue...that issue being best taught by Paul himself:
Eph. 3:1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles-- 2 Surely you have heard about the administration of God's grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God's grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
Rom 16:25 Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him-- 27 to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.
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You wrongly interpret my words. I know of no universal invisible body of Christ in Scripture. The "middle wall of partition" was found in the PUBLIC house of worship where a qualified PUBLIC ministry served and where PUBLIC worship existed. The new PUBLIC house of God (1 Tim. 3:15) is also where a PUBLIC qualified ministry serves (1 Tim. 3:1-13) and it is in this PUBLIC house of worship where there is equality for the first time within the professing kingdom of God on earth.
You confuse gospel salvation with the congregation of Christ! Gospel salvation has always been the same in all ages (Acts 10:43; 26:22-23; Heb. 4:2) as there is but one "everlasting covenant" (Heb. 13:20) and the SAME gospel before the cross is the same gospel preached after the cross (Acts 10:43; Heb. 4:2) and the very same way of salvation before the cross (Jn. 1:6; Mt. 7:13-14) is the very same way of salvation after the cross as there never has been any other way (Acts 4:12).
There are not three classes of men on earth but only two possible classes (1) those "in the flesh" versus (2) "those in the Spirit" - Rom. 8:8-9. Those in the flesh are spiritually dead while those in the Spirit are in SPIRITUAL UNION with God or Spiritually alive (indwelt) as spiritual union with God is impossible apart from being Spiritually indwelt by God.
You are confusing the "temple" of the human body of believers which is and has always been the temple of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 6:19) with the singular temple of the congregational body (1 Cor. 3:16). The temple body indwelt and baptized by the Spirit on Pentecost was a plural "you" of water baptized beleivers who gathered together in one place as one new temple or congregational body of Christ and the new "house of God" on Pentecost. Every single promise of the baptism in the Spirit was to WATER IMMERSED believers John prepared and Christ took to himself to form His congregational body (Acts 1:21-22) and NEVER to anyone else. The baptism in the Spirit was the one time historical event that characterized every new public house of God previous to Pentecost (Ex. 40:35-37; 2 Chron. 7:1-3). The Holy Spirit has always indwelt individual believers before, during and after Pentecost. He came "upon" them to equip, empower but not to indwell (Acts 8:14) and the Old Testament is full of people who are said to have been indwelt by the Spirit of God in addition to being empowered "come upon" and they are not merely prohets (e.g. Caleb, Joshua).
The elect seed of God included Gentiles from the very beginning as they were ALL GENTILES from Adam to Abraham and included Gentiles between Moses and Christ (Jn. 12:19-27). What was NEW was not the salvation of Gentiles but the equal service of Gentiles IN THE PUBLIC HOUSE OF WORSHIP.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
And there is no point in God "making you whine (as His saved saint) against His work" in sparing the city - only to have to "reason with you " via "gourd and worm" trying to get you to see the justice and mercy of God in sparing the city.
Why use strictly Arminian methods (using reason, logic and compelling evidence to motivate right decisions) if the Calvinist "master programmer" method "is the real way things work"? Makes no sense.
If God is causing you to think your every thought - programming your thoughts and words direct from heaven - then what a great robot-maker but not a very good "intelligent life maker".
Furthermore - the one that makes the rifle and then shoots the rifle at people is to blame for what happens since He absolutely caused it all - you cannot blame the mindless machine being used in that scenario.
One that in the case of Calvinism cannot even think for itself let alone take ownership of what it does as if it chose something.
"He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1
"O Jerusalem Jerusalem who kills ... .how I wanted to spare your children ... but YOU would not!" Matt 23
Indeed - the reason that the Bible describes God using free-will methods is because He sovereignly selected the Free Will model to start with.
Apparently He thinks that "nothing above the robot level" is a watered-down sort of achievement that is not the best choice for an infinitely wise God.
in Christ,
Bob
Why use strictly Arminian methods (using reason, logic and compelling evidence to motivate right decisions) if the Calvinist "master programmer" method "is the real way things work"? Makes no sense.
If God is causing you to think your every thought - programming your thoughts and words direct from heaven - then what a great robot-maker but not a very good "intelligent life maker".
Furthermore - the one that makes the rifle and then shoots the rifle at people is to blame for what happens since He absolutely caused it all - you cannot blame the mindless machine being used in that scenario.
One that in the case of Calvinism cannot even think for itself let alone take ownership of what it does as if it chose something.
"He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1
"O Jerusalem Jerusalem who kills ... .how I wanted to spare your children ... but YOU would not!" Matt 23
Indeed - the reason that the Bible describes God using free-will methods is because He sovereignly selected the Free Will model to start with.
Apparently He thinks that "nothing above the robot level" is a watered-down sort of achievement that is not the best choice for an infinitely wise God.
in Christ,
Bob
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
I'm not sure how to make our view any more clear. Let me try this. What was revealed to Peter in the white sheet dream that he was not already aware of?
What were the Gentiles being grafted into and the Jews being cut off from in Romans 11? What did that vine represent exactly?
You just don't get it! I have no problem understanding your "view" I just simply disagree with it because it is a HALF truth joined with pure eisgesis.
His personal Biblical literacy is not the issue. The truth is not based upon his personal knowledge or lack thereof. The scriptures clearly taught a chosen seed from among the gentile nations since the time of Abraham as it was part of God's explicit promise to him. Nothing but Gentiles were saved prior to Abraham as God's chosen people in the LINE OF SETH - all gentiles. The gospel has been preached by ALL THE PROPHETS from the first prophet Abel and God personally preached the gospel to Abraham (Jn. 8:58; Gal. 3:4-6; Rom. 4:22-25). Isaiah and the prophets predicted precisely what God revealed to Peter.
The specific issue I have with your interpretation is that you are attempting to make a UNIVERSAL TRUTH, meaning a truth not confined to any specific period of time or any specific people, restricted to the Jews in the life of Christ JUST BECAUSE THAT UNIVERSAL TRUTH APPLIES TO THEM. John 6:37-65 EQUALLY applies in all ages to the elect and to those who oppose Christ as preached in all ages (Acts 10:43; Heb. 4:2)
The short answer is God's PRESENT RACIAL SPHERE of redemptive activity. The grafting in and cutting out have nothing to do with individual salvation or damnation but the PRIMARY RACIAL SPHERE where God presently chooses to call out His elect. Presently that PRIMARY RACIAL SPHERE of redemptive activity is among the Gentile nations. Prior to this the PRIMARY RACIAL SPHERE of redemptive activity where God called out HIs elect were among the JEWISH people. Prior to Abraham the ONLY RACIAL SPHERE of redemptive activity was among the Gentiles and specifically the family line of Seth.
Your error is that not only you confuse ELECTION of the TEMPORARY sphere of racial activity by God which has NOTHING to do with personal salvation or damnation with the ELECT REMNANT which has everything to do with individual salvation but you also REVERSE their significance in relationship with each other in regard to election. The former is merely a chosen RACIAL EMPHASIS but does not entirely exclude INDIVIDUAL ELECTION TO SALVATION from the RACIAL sphere that is not emphasized. The latter is nothing but individualized election to salvation that is always in keeping with the RACIAL promise to Abraham as that promise of an elect seed has always included both JEWS and GENTILES.
The election of the PRESENT RACIAL EMPHASIS is always SECONDARY in significance because INDIVIDUAL ELECTION is never restricted only to that present racial emphasis.
The ELECT INDIVIDUALS are primary while the ELECT SPHERE OF REDEMPTIVE ACTIVITY from which those individuals are saved is secondary.
1. Between Adam and Abraham the elect sphere of redemptive activity was PRIMARILY restricted to the family line of Seth.
2. Abraham was both GENTILE and JEW. His lineage was GENTILE
3. Between Abraham and Paul the elect sphere of redemptive activity was PRIMARILY restricted to the family of Abraham (although a Gentile seed was always included and always some elect were being called from).
Your error is that you are taking election of racial emphasis, which only identifies the present sphere of primary redemptive activity from among whom God is calling out individual elect to personal salvation, and attempting to repudiate what that GENERAL but not exclusive choice is designed to serve and that is saving ELECT INDIVIDUALS regardless of race as in all ages God calls out both Jews and Gentile elect individuals regardless of what the racial emphasis may be at the present time.
The metaphor of relationship between the believer and Christ regardless of what the racial emphasis may be at present. When Jesus was speaking the present racial emphasis from which God was calling out individual elect was the JEWS, but now, it is the Gentiles. However, regardless the metaphor fits any elect at any period from any race.
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