Does the Catholic Church have no authority?

[thessalonian]

"This was from a discussion on another board. The person in question claims to be a Catholic. I have no reason to doubt it. If you'd like I can provide a link so that you can read for yourself what he wrote. "

Please do. I may want to rebut such nonsense. Thanks.

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:

IDIOT CATHOLICS DO NOT DEFINE THE CATHOLIC FAITH!!

But if they have to go by offical authoritative teachings of the Church, instead of some off the wall nut job, those who wish to slander the Church would have so little to work with.

What you are seeing is a very common anti-Catholic ploy.

Put out some sort of second hand hearsay from someone who identifies themself as Catholic, without actually knowing the degree of that person's knowledge or fidelity to the teachings of the Church, and then try to pretend that this is what the Church teaches or condones by silence.

Include some conversations that this supposed Catholic supposedly had with a priest that no one has met nor can identify, then demand that some other Catholic defend it or explain it.



How come there's no icon for barfing?

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:
Eladar --

Please tape this to your forehead and memorize it:

IDIOT CATHOLICS DO NOT DEFINE THE CATHOLIC FAITH!!

Thanks

Brother Ed

AMEN!!!

 

[thessalonian]

I think this quote from V II explains alot as to why public excommunication is so rare these days.

"At the outset of the Second Vatican Council, it is evident, as always, that the truth of the Lord will remain forever. We see, in fact, as one age succeeds another, that the opinions of men follow one another and exclude each other. And often errors vanish as quickly as they arise, like fog before the sun.

"The Church has always opposed these errors. Frequently she has condemned them with the greatest severity. Nowadays, however, the spouse of Christ prefers to make use of the medicine of mercy rather than that of severity."


__________

"…[T]he Catholic Church, raising the torch of religious truth by means of this ecumenical council, desires to show herself to be the loving mother of all, benign, patient, full of mercy and goodness toward the children separated from her."


I think this part is key:
"And often errors vanish as quickly as they arise, like fog before the sun. "

We know that a house built on sand will not stand. I do wish there were more excommunications these days but also understand the point that is trying to be made from Vatican II.

 

[gb93433]

The first church was not the RCC it was the Jews and Gentiles who were born again such as Nicodemus was in John 3. Jesus led that one. Jesus was the first and Peter followed Jesus. The Jews can trace their roots back to Abraham.

The RCC has no authority, It just think it does. God is the final authority. Just look at what is happening with the cover up's over the years. What knd of authority did the RCC exhibit except to settle out of court. In fact it came under the law of the land. In some countries at one time it was the law of the land.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by thessalonian:
[QB]"…[T]he Catholic Church, raising the torch of religious truth by means of this ecumenical council, desires to show herself to be the loving mother of all, benign, patient, full of mercy and goodness toward the children separated from her."
[QB]

Do not be fooled by this religiosity; these damnable heresies that go directly against the precepts of God's Word. This is not the torch of religious truth; it is the torch of demonic falsity. Never does mercy supercede justice. The justice system of the U.S.A. is based on the Bible. When a murderer, rapist, child molester, thief, etc., appears before court, does the judge and jury grant one and all mercy and set all free giving no regard at all for the victim(s)? This is exactly what the Catholic Church has suggested. Let the criminals go free. No crime should ever be punished. Mercy should reign. Criminals should not pay for their crimes. Have you ever heard such balderdash? Yet this is the spirit of ecumenism.
It is the sacrificing of doctrine on the altar of unity. "Oh, deliver us from doctrine!" one ecumenical leader prayed, with a Catholic bishop present.

So in the spirit of ecumenism and mercy, a murderer will not be punished, not be brought to justice, not be excommunicated from the church, but only be treated with mercy. Is this right? This is what you have said. It is a demonic doctrine straight from the pit of hell. Not even the heathen nations steep to such depths.

What happens to a drug dealer in Singapore--death sentence.
What happens to a thief in Saudia Arabia--hand is cut off.
What happens to an adulterer in Egypt--death.
What happens to one who takes the name of God (especially Mohammed) in vain, in Pakistan--death.

What happens to a sexual pervert in the Catholic Church--moved to another parish.

The Bible teaches justice. For every sin there is a consequence. The wages of sin is death. Be sure your sin will find you out. There is a death penalty enacted in many states for a reason. Does the Catholic Church care? It seems not. Neither do they care about Biblical teaching.
DHK

 

[Ray Berrian]

Originally posted by thessalonian:
[QB]"…[T]he Catholic Church, raising the torch of religious truth by means of this ecumenical council, desires to show herself to be the loving mother of all, benign, patient, full of mercy and goodness toward (did you say separated brethren?) (I did not get the exact quote here; but this was the idea.

Ray is saying, I do not want any 'Mother of Harlots' [Revelation 17:5] coddling or nurturing me, even when offered in an ecumenical pretense. I do, however, stand with Roman Catholics who are against abortion and homosexuality; praise the Lord for their unwavering stand on these issues. Neither would I want to be identified with other apostate churches like the United Church of Christ or the Episcopal Church because of their pro-choice views of abortion or their views about the legitimacy of homosexuality. These life-styles and ideas are an abomination to the Lord.

Although I am sure there are many, many Christians in all three denominations referred to above, I will not be here to parrot their quasi-religious beliefs when the Great Tribulation begins its era of time.

 

[thessalonian]

" Neither would I want to be identified with other apostate churches like the United Church of Christ or the Episcopal Church because of their pro-choice views of abortion or their views about the legitimacy of homosexuality."

Ray. Is this you. If it is not that is fine. If it is then what is the Reformed united Church of Christ. Do you believe in the trinity as stated in orthodox Christianity?

http://www.laker.net/rclark/GCHS1961/berrian.htm

This guy apparently belongs or belonged to the UCOC. for he says:

"I have pastored United Church of Christ churches for twenty-three years."

He wrote a thesis on quasi-Agustinian stuff. He is from PA like you and likes fishing like you. So if it is not you you perhaps have a double?

Thanks for your opinion on the WOB being the Catholic Church. If you were an infallible interpruter of scripture I might actually believe you but since you are not an infallible interprutater and can only state your opinion on what a scripture means I will go with what I think those verses mean and what the Holy Roman Catholic Church thinks they mean rather than old anti-catholic wives tales based on biggotry and hatred.

 

[Ray Berrian]

West Coast of California,

Excellent post in so few words; several thoughts with few words. Great!

Is gb93433 your Protestant number? I forgot mine, could you look it up for me. Is your denominational number included in the 33,000 denominations that some Catholics believe there really are in our world. Just kidding of course.

Ray

 

[thessalonian]

" I will not be here to parrot their quasi-religious beliefs when the Great Tribulation begins its era of time. "

Yes, I hear your headed for a MUCH warmer climate.

Just kidding of course.

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by DHK:
Do not be fooled by this religiosity; these damnable heresies that go directly against the precepts of God's Word. This is not the torch of religious truth; it is the torch of demonic falsity. Never does mercy supercede justice. The justice system of the U.S.A. is based on the Bible. When a murderer, rapist, child molester, thief, etc., appears before court, does the judge and jury grant one and all mercy and set all free giving no regard at all for the victim(s)? This is exactly what the Catholic Church has suggested. Let the criminals go free. No crime should ever be punished. Mercy should reign. Criminals should not pay for their crimes. Have you ever heard such balderdash? Yet this is the spirit of ecumenism.
It is the sacrificing of doctrine on the altar of unity. "Oh, deliver us from doctrine!" one ecumenical leader prayed, with a Catholic bishop present.

So in the spirit of ecumenism and mercy, a murderer will not be punished, not be brought to justice, not be excommunicated from the church, but only be treated with mercy. Is this right? This is what you have said. It is a demonic doctrine straight from the pit of hell. Not even the heathen nations steep to such depths.

What happens to a drug dealer in Singapore--death sentence.
What happens to a thief in Saudia Arabia--hand is cut off.
What happens to an adulterer in Egypt--death.
What happens to one who takes the name of God (especially Mohammed) in vain, in Pakistan--death.

What happens to a sexual pervert in the Catholic Church--moved to another parish.

The Bible teaches justice. For every sin there is a consequence. The wages of sin is death. Be sure your sin will find you out. There is a death penalty enacted in many states for a reason. Does the Catholic Church care? It seems not. Neither do they care about Biblical teaching.
DHK

Murder?????

DHK, what in the world are you ranting about?

Take a deep breath and compose yourself, man.

 

[thessalonian]

" Neither would I want to be identified with other apostate churches like the United Church of Christ or the Episcopal Church because of their pro-choice views of abortion or their views about the legitimacy of homosexuality."

Ray. Is this you. If it is not that is fine. If it is then what is the Reformed united Church of Christ. Do you believe in the trinity as stated in orthodox Christianity?

http://www.laker.net/rclark/GCHS1961/berrian.htm

This guy apparently belongs or belonged to the UCOC. for he says:

"I have pastored United Church of Christ churches for twenty-three years."

He wrote a thesis on quasi-Agustinian stuff. He is from PA like you and likes fishing like you. So if it is not you you perhaps have a double?

Thanks for your opinion on the WOB being the Catholic Church. If you were an infallible interpruter of scripture I might actually believe you but since you are not an infallible interprutater and can only state your opinion on what a scripture means I will go with what I think those verses mean and what the Holy Roman Catholic Church thinks they mean rather than old anti-catholic wives tales based on biggotry and hatred.

 

[DHK]

Thessalonian,
Think about the reality of this situation, not the theoretical situation according to the catechism, but the reality.
The reality is that you can be a Roman Catholic and anything else under the sun. You can be a Roman Catholic and a murderer; RC and an adulterer; RC and a child molester; RC and a serial killer; RC and a drug dealer, or whatever criminal choice you may choose to be. You can be anything you want to be and a RC at the same time. That is reality. There is no control, no authority in the Roman Catholic Church. Its adherents number approximately one billion. They are not all faithful in attendance. They do not all go to confession on a regular basis, and when they do who is to say that they would confess their more serious sins or crimes to a priest if it had the possible ramifications of getting them into trouble? And yet they remain Catholic. Many Catholics attend twice a year: once at Christmas and then once at Easter; and then a third time at their funeral.
Members of the mob have been awarded decent funerals. The Kennedy family all were given lavish and well-attended funerals sanctioned by the Church--some of the biggest promoters of the alcohol business in the world, promoters of abortion, promoting almost everything the RC stands against. Hypocrisy abounds.
You cover up your own sin, as is seen today in the sexual scandals that take place in your own leadership. What difference does it make if the man is a murderer or a rapist. Sin is sin. You state your policy is mercy and not judgement. The victim you don't care about.

Who is the victim here Thessalonian? Who is the victim of the crime that you don't care about? David said "Agaist thee and thee alone have I sinned, O Lord?" The conclusion: The RC's don't care about God.
DHK

 

[thessalonian]

"You can be a Roman Catholic and a murderer; RC and an adulterer; RC and a child molester; RC and a serial killer; RC and a drug dealer, or whatever criminal choice you may choose to be."

This sounds more like something you should have used against Ray and his theory that those who continue in their sin get to go to heaven early for good behavior. No, your post just makes me think you are dillisional. There is no such Catholic Church as the one you describe. i.e. one that approves of sin. Yes there are Catholics who have done the things and that does grave damage to the truth that the Church proclims but so are there Baptists who committ these crimes. I could make the same claims as you about the Baptists. Like Ron said get a grip. Your hatred of Catholicism is making your glasses fog so that you cannot see. You are not rational.

Blessings

 

[trying2understand]

DHK, you have drifited out of context here in your tirade against mercy.

We are talking about excommunication of Catholics who hold beliefs contrary to the teachings of the Church.

How you get from there to murder and drug dealing I have no idea.

But the topic is way over here...

 

[WPutnam]

Originally posted by thessalonian:
... Your hatred of Catholicism is making your glasses fog so that you cannot see. You are not rational.

Blessings

Thess, you point to precisely the phenomenon I have seen since my childhood, preached from the pulpit of my former church affiliation, where a Sunday did not go by that the Catholic Church was dissed, and even my own mother, who once said to me:

"Son, be what ever you want to be, attend what ever church you want to attend, but please, oh please, don't ever become a Catholic."

Something told me I just had to look into this...

I simply had to find out why this church was so maligned...

"And now you know the rest of the story..."

Good job, Thess!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Almighty and eternal God, you gather
the scattered sheep

and watch over those
you have gathered.

Look kindly on all who follow Jesus,
your Son.

You have marked them
with the seal of one baptism,
now make them one
in the fullness of faith
and unite them in the bond of love.

We ask this through Christ our Lord.

Amen.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by thessalonian:
"You can be a Roman Catholic and a murderer; RC and an adulterer; RC and a child molester; RC and a serial killer; RC and a drug dealer, or whatever criminal choice you may choose to be."

This sounds more like something you should have used against Ray and his theory that those who continue in their sin get to go to heaven early for good behavior. No, your post just makes me think you are dillisional. There is no such Catholic Church as the one you describe. i.e. one that approves of sin. Yes there are Catholics who have done the things and that does grave damage to the truth that the Church proclims but so are there Baptists who committ these crimes. I could make the same claims as you about the Baptists. Like Ron said get a grip. Your hatred of Catholicism is making your glasses fog so that you cannot see. You are not rational.

Blessings

It is perfectly rational. The subject is one of authority. I agree that in both groups sin, and even grievous sin is committed. In the Bible, in the Church at Corinth, (First Baptist Church at Corinth), a man was accused of incest--having immoral sexual relations with his father's wife:

1Cor.5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

Action was taken, and the man was disciplined from the church.
We have had the unfortunate occaision to do the same thing in our church--exercise discipline on the basis of Mat.18, and excommunicate or disfellowship certain individuals out of the church. It is only the local church that has the authority to do so. The Catholic Church has no such authority over its members. You can be a Catholic and anything else you want to be. A criminal can be harbored quite easily in the Catholic Church, without the Catholic Church ever taking any outward disciplinary action, such as the church in Corinth, or was taken in our own church. You never hear about it. It never, or if ever (rarely) takes place.
A Baptist church discipline its members. A man committing adultery would be automatically removed from the pastorate, not just shifted to another church. He would never be allowed to pastor again. He has disqualified himself from the ministry. That goes for many other crimes as well.
"A bishop must be found blameless..." "Bishop" is simply another term for "pastor." We hold our "clergy" to a high standard. We hold all our people to a high standard. The very fact that our members are not religious, do not practice a relgion, but rather have a relationship with Christ, speaks volumes in itself. Religion doesn't change people. Christ does.
DHK

 

[trying2understand]

BTW, DHK, how is it that you know exactly who is and who isn't excommunicated, anyway?

Do you get a weekly fax update from the Vatican?

As far as funerals go, how do you know who has repented or not repented of past sins?

I hear alot from Baptists about people "getting saved" in the hospital just before they die.

And when was the last time a Baptist got publicly excommunicated? I don't ever recall seeing a notice about it in the newspaper.

I know in your little world, from talking to you in the past, that if you don't have personal knowledge of a Catholic being excommunicated, then that means to you that it never happened.

Thanks for posting on the board. It's very humorous.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
BTW, DHK, how is it that you know exactly who is and who isn't excommunicated, anyway?

Do you get a weekly fax update from the Vatican?

As far as funerals go, how do you know who has repented or not repented of past sins?

I hear alot from Baptists about people "getting saved" in the hospital just before they die.

And when was the last time a Baptist got publicly excommunicated? I don't ever recall seeing a notice about it in the newspaper.

I know in your little world, from talking to you in the past, that if you don't have personal knowledge of a Catholic being excommunicated, then that means to you that it never happened.

Thanks for posting on the board. It's very humorous.

Ron, if people got excommunticated from the RCC there would not be such a public outcry for such action concerning all the sexual perverts in positions of leadership within the church. It is evident that it does not happen. If it did, the public would be appeased and there would not be million dollar law suits against the church, would there? Why are there so many lawsuits currently against priests and "brothers" still in the clergy of the church Ron. Can you please answer why they haven't been disciplined when we know they have already been found guilty.

The reason you don't hear about these things publicly in a Baptist church, is because the discipline is taken for that very reason--to prevent it from becoming a large public scandal. If a woman commits adultery, in our city, why should you hear about it world-wide? What does that have to do with you? But it does have to do with our community, and the reputation of our church in our community. The member is disciplined out of the church to keep the church pure, and to take steps to bring the person back to a place of repentance. If you study first and second Corinthians, you will find that the person excommunicated in 1Cor.5, repented and was admitted back into the church from the evidence given in the second epistle. That is the goal.

We have personal knowledge of Catholics not being excommunicated when they should be. It is all over the media. Don't bury your head in the sand.
DHK

 

[Eladar]

Thessalonian,

I have sent the info with the link in a pm.

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:

IDIOT CATHOLICS DO NOT DEFINE THE CATHOLIC FAITH!!

I never said they did. I am just wondering if the church has any authority to stop this kind of stuff. Evidently the answer is no.

Ron,

From your definition of excommunication, you were incorrect in saying that those outside the teachings of the church automatically excommunicate themselves. They continue to receive the sacraments.