Does the Catholic Church have no authority?

[WPutnam]

Originally posted by gb93433:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by WPutnam:
gb93433 -

All you did was quote my original message without a comment on your part.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

I didn't know how to mix in the comments. So all are bold. </font>[/QUOTE]Here is a quick lesson on the use of UBB codes:

For purposes of illustration I am going to use (...) instead of the brackets (Square parenthesis) to illustrate. You probably see these when you hit the quote button and you have the message you are going to reply to before you.

When you do this:

(quote)(b)This is a test sentence.(/b)(/quote)

Using the square brackets instead, you will get this:

This is a test sentence.

The "quote" and the "b" is to set it off as a quoted sentence/paragraph, and the "b" is to make it bold. The hypertext symbols must then be "deactivated by the use of the "/" symbol you see when you want to end the bolding and the quote.

You will often times see me do an emphasis within something I write:

The Catholic Church is the (i}only(/i) (b)true(/b) Church founded by Christ.

Using brackets again, you would get:

The Catholic Church is the only true Church founded by Christ.

Get the idea?

When you want to comment within something you are quoting from me, it should go like this:

But first. lets say I say this:

The Catholic Church is the only true church as founded by Christ, and is therefore, the only one who has the authority as originally given by Christ. She cannot fall into error simply because Christ promised not to per Matthew 16:18 "And the gates of hell shall not prevail against it

But you want to contest what I said after my first sentence. Here is what you must do:

(again, I will not do it using the (...) to illustrate)

(quote)(b)The Catholic Church is the only true church as founded by Christ, and is therefore, the only one who has the authority as originally given by Christ. She cannot fall into error simply because Christ promised not to per Matthew 16:18 "(i)And the gates of hell shall not prevail against it(/i)(/b)(/quote)


Notice that I have compounded the use of both bolding and italicising in this comment.

Now, this is how you would interject your comment:

(quote)(b)The Catholic Church is the only true church as founded by Christ, and is therefore, the only one who has the authority as originally given by Christ.(/b)(/quote)

You are full of it, Bill Putnam! You are going to have to be a bit more specific to convince me!

(quote)(b) She cannot fall into error simply because Christ promised not to per Matthew 16:18 "(i)And the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.(/i)(/b)(/quote)

You split my comment up where you want to comment, ending the split with a "(/C)(/quote)"...

Insert your comment...

And then add a "(quote)(b) to begin where I I left off.

This is the way it would end up, using the [...]:

The Catholic Church is the only true church as founded by Christ, and is therefore, the only one who has the authority as originally given by Christ.

You are full of it, Bill Putnam! You are going to have to be a bit more specific to convince me!

She cannot fall into error simply because Christ promised not to per Matthew 16:18 "And the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

It takes practice but you can do some other fancy things, such as:

(font color=red)Notice the pretty red color!(/font)

And using the [...], you would get this:

[font color=red]Notice ethe pretty red color![/font]

Oops! Coloring of fonts is disconnected in this forum! (Most forums allow you to do that!)

The UBB codes are nothing more then the HTML codes, which uses &lt;...&gt; instead of [...], so I suggest you do a google search on a good HTML tutorial to learn how to take advantage of them.

Also, when you think you have it right, preview the post first to see if you made any errors, giving you the chance to go back and correct them.

Good luck!

I will look over your last post and see if it is worth replying to. But in the meanwhile, I hope this helps you out.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Lord, grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things that I can,
and the wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time,
enjoying one moment at a time;
accepting hardship as a pathway to peace;
taking, as Jesus did, this sinful world as it is,
not as I would have it;
trusting that you will make all things right
if I surrender to Your will;
so that I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with You forever in the next.
Amen.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Originally posted by WPutnam:

It is still a sin to go to a Protestant church as an active participant and in the place of the Sunday obligation to attend Mass at a Catholic Church. The Catholic Church, the first and the original church founded by Christ has the power to "bind and loose" (Matt 16:19) in such matters, therefore declares that it is a sin.


Horse hockey. I don't know what yer tryin to say, and I must be missing something in another post of yours, 'cuz I'm sure that you don't expect any of us to be stupid enough to buy that.

This folks, is why I never come here anymore. When I do, I see this baloney. If I'm mistaken of what you mean, I apologize, and if you do mean it, your crazy.

 

[WPutnam]

Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by WPutnam:

It is still a sin to go to a Protestant church as an active participant and in the place of the Sunday obligation to attend Mass at a Catholic Church. The Catholic Church, the first and the original church founded by Christ has the power to "bind and loose" (Matt 16:19) in such matters, therefore declares that it is a sin.


Horse hockey. I don't know what yer tryin to say, and I must be missing something in another post of yours, 'cuz I'm sure that you don't expect any of us to be stupid enough to buy that.</font>[/QUOTE]Buy what? All I am telling you that Catholics are forbidden to attend church in the place of (as a substitute for) going to Mass at a Catholic Church!

If you don't like that, sorry...

I have given you the exceptions, as at funerals and weddings, but again, not as a general rule.

It's called making a canon law that prohibits it!

And the Catholic Church has the audacity to claim such authority!

This folks, is why I never come here anymore. When I do, I see this baloney. If I'm mistaken of what you mean, I apologize, and if you do mean it, your crazy.

Bro. Curtis, I firmly believe what I say here, and it is just simply too bad that it effects you so. I am sure most of the people here consider me a rather considerate poster, but you apparently do not. That saddens me...

But I am not going to lay awake nights worrying about it...

In the mean while, please pray for me, a sinner, as I fall short of the glory of God.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

Rome has spoken, case is closed.

Derived from Augustine's famous Sermon.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

It's just a lie, Mr Putnam. You will be hard pressed to prove going to ANY Christian church, as any type of Christian, is a sin. Remember all those epistles Paul wrote to those first churches, admonishing them, warning them, correcting them, but nowhere does he say going was a sin.

 

[WPutnam]

Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
It's just a lie, Mr Putnam. You will be hard pressed to prove going to ANY Christian church, as any type of Christian, is a sin.

Does the church, as Christ founded it, have authority, sir? What does it mean to "bind and loose," sir? Have you noticed the actions of the Church (the only one around for the first 1000 years of church history) with the heresies that sprung up? What happens to the disobedient brother per Matthew 18:18?

Remember all those epistles Paul wrote to those first churches, admonishing them, warning them, correcting them, but nowhere does he say going was a sin.

Bro. Curtis, they were all local/regional churches who were a part of THE CHURCH! Christ established ONE church, not a multitude of churches all going their own ways and with their own doctrines, but ONE church!

Were they autonomous? If they were, Paul would have no authority to admonish them and correct them, just like the pope who refused King Henry VIIIth his divorce, thus setting the stage for the revolt of the Church in England to separate from the Church, the original Church, headquartered now in Rome.

Unfortunately, those churches Paul admonished eventually separated from the Original Church as well - the Orthodox Schism circa A.D. 1000 - thus the Church in Corinth, Thessaloniki and Ephesus and other interesting places are now mostly Orthodox.

Bro. Curtis, under pain of sin, as decreed by the Church, Catholics are obliged to attend Mass every Sunday and on holy days of obligation. If a Catholic deliberately refuses to do so, they commit a sin. If you don't like that, then you have a problem with my claim of authority in my Church.

This extends to the decree that Catholics must not attend non-Catholic services except under the circumstances I have already explained, but in general, they cannot attend these churches under the pain of sin, period.

It is so decreed by a Church who claims the authority to do so per Matthew 16:18-19 and Matthew 18:18.

And again, if you rail against this, you are free to reject it and remain outside of the Catholic Church!

It is that simple...

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

Rome has spoken, case is closed.

Derived from Augustine's famous Sermon.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

And remain outside I always will.

 

[A_Christian]

The CHURCH is the BODY of ALL true believers.
It isn't a ruling party or clique. The CHURCH
isn't a pope. The CHURCH isn't the edifice.
The CHURCH isn't traditions. The CHURCH isn't
a prophet (as the Mormons would have it).

The CHURCH is a living organism of ALL saved
individuals joined together by Christ Jesus.
This makes the Roman Catholic church only a
subgroup and not THE group (fortunately).

 

[WPutnam]

Originally posted by A_Christian:
The CHURCH is the BODY of ALL true believers.
It isn't a ruling party or clique. The CHURCH
isn't a pope. The CHURCH isn't the edifice.
The CHURCH isn't traditions. The CHURCH isn't
a prophet (as the Mormons would have it).

The CHURCH is a living organism of ALL saved
individuals joined together by Christ Jesus.
This makes the Roman Catholic church only a
subgroup and not THE group (fortunately).

Identify that church for me at Pentecost.

Identify that church for me at Pentecost + 1 day.

Identify that church for me at Pentecost + 1 year.

Identify that church for me at Pentecost + 10 years.

Identify that church for me at Pentecost + 50 years.

Identify that church fo rmne at Pentecost + 100 years, about when St, Ignatius, among others, attached the amplifyihg word "Catholic" to it's title.

Finally, pick any time frame from Pentecost to the 16th century, the birthe century of the so called "Protestant Reformation" and explain it to me, please...

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Et ego dico tibi quia tu es Petrus et super hanc petram
aedificabo ecclesiam meam et portae inferi non praevalebunt
adversum eam et tibi dabo claves regni caelorum et quodcumque
ligaveris super terram erit ligatum in caelis et quodcumque
solveris super terram erit solutum in caelis.
(Matt 16:18-19 From the Latin Vulgate)

 

[WPutnam]

Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
And remain outside I always will.

But just remember this, Bro. Curtis. Even while we may not participate in your church services as a substitute for the required attendance at Mass for Catholics, you remain in my heart as a brother in Christ!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Almighty and eternal God, you gather
the scattered sheep

and watch over those
you have gathered.

Look kindly on all who follow Jesus,
your Son.

You have marked them
with the seal of one baptism,
now make them one
in the fullness of faith
and unite them in the bond of love.

We ask this through Christ our Lord.

Amen.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Originally posted by WPutnam:

Identify that church for me at Pentecost.

Identify that church for me at Pentecost + 1 day.

Identify that church for me at Pentecost + 1 year.

Identify that church for me at Pentecost + 10 years.

Identify that church for me at Pentecost + 50 years.

Identify that church fo rmne at Pentecost + 100 years, about when St, Ignatius, among others, attached the amplifyihg word "Catholic" to it's title.

Finally, pick any time frame from Pentecost to the 16th century, the birthe century of the so called "Protestant Reformation" and explain it to me, please...

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Et ego dico tibi quia tu es Petrus et super hanc petram
aedificabo ecclesiam meam et portae inferi non praevalebunt
adversum eam et tibi dabo claves regni caelorum et quodcumque
ligaveris super terram erit ligatum in caelis et quodcumque
solveris super terram erit solutum in caelis.
(Matt 16:18-19 From the Latin Vulgate)

I'm not too up on St Ignatius, or anyone like that, but.....

The Bible is silent on the denomination, ain't it ? But here is a good question...

The first sermons preached by Paul, Peter, Stephen, and others like him, do they resemble a Catholic mass, or are they more like the sermons you would hear in a good, solid, Baptist Church ?

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Also, if Paul had authority over those first few churches, wouldn't that make him the first pope ? (I know it's weak rebuttal, and maybe even a cheap shot, but I couldn't help myself.) Paul had no authority, but any Christian could give another a stern warning. It just so happens that Paul's were preserved for us.

 

[WPutnam]

Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
Also, if Paul had authority over those first few churches, wouldn't that make him the first pope ? (I know it's weak rebuttal, and maybe even a cheap shot, but I couldn't help myself.) Paul had no authority, but any Christian could give another a stern warning. It just so happens that Paul's were preserved for us.

I will also answer your first message with the statement:

in those time periods I suggested, the name of the organization was simply called "church." And since it was the only one, how could it be a "denomination"? In other words, it is an oxymoron to say "A denomination of one" (since it is not yet divided.)

Secondly, Paul was the founder of those local/regional churches, and being an apostle, he had the authority to discipline them, just as it was later on with a metropolitian/archbishop for a region under his influence.

Today, such authority is now reserved to the pope within the Catholic hierarchy, since it has been determined that every bishop is "autonomous" within his own see, responsible to Rome only.

But if you insist that Paul had no "authority," I would suggest you read once again what Christ told all his apostles in Matthew 18:18 concerning the power to "bind and loose."

Authority bothers you a lot, doesn't it, Bro. Curtis? I guess such a stance is infectous, since this was one of the reasons for the "events" in the 16th century, sparked by Luther.

I therefore realize why you will always remain outside of the Catholic Chruch...

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Regina Angelorum, ora pro nobis!

 

[Bro. Curtis]

I have absolutely no problem with authority. It seems to me that tha RCC has the problem. It is a false claim of authority, not supported at all in scripture. The verses you post just don't convince me, rather, they seem to say that it's a play on words that the RCC has perverted into what they need it to be, so's to influence weak Christians.

Jesus is the head, not the pope.

Now how about that first question, where is Mary in any of those first sermons, for instance ?

 

[WPutnam]

Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
I have absolutely no problem with authority. It seems to me that tha RCC has the problem.

I could not disagree with you more! Holy Mother Church has exercised her authority since the times she was established by Christ!

Take a gander at all of the good reading material available, extant of the writings of the early church fathers who point to the authority of the Church:

http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/church.htm

It is a false claim of authority, not supported at all in scripture. The verses you post just don't convince me, rather, they seem to say that it's a play on words that the RCC has perverted into what they need it to be, so's to influence weak Christians.

It is just as easy for me to point to the interpretations of non-Catholics as "a play on words that (Protestants) has perverted into what they need it to be, so's to influence weak (Catholics)."

Jesus is the head, not the pope.

Catholicism has never doubted nor claimed otherwise that Christ is indeed, the head of His church! He always has and always will be!

The pope is only his human representative here on earth, inferior to Christ, and as Christ first appointed Peter (once called Simon, now Peter) in Matthew 16:18-19, so also are Peter's successors, including the present Pope John Paul II, bless his heart!

Now how about that first question, where is Mary in any of those first sermons, for instance ?

What first question?

I am perfectly willing to discuss Mary, but not out of the clear blue that you bring her up here.

Start a new thread and we can have at it, Bro. Curtis!

As it is, this thread is discussing the authority of the Catholic Church, does she have it or not, remember?

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)

 

[Bro. Curtis]

I think the absence of Mariolatry in the first sermons ties right into what we are discussing. Not once is she mentioned.

And you have yet to prove where Christ gives Peter authority over any Christian.

But alas, we get nowhere. Another circular argument that will never end.

If you could prove the RCC is Christ's true church, it would have been done long ago.

 

[A_Christian]

The CHURCH at Pentecost is the same one that
exists today. It is composed of ALL
individuals who are indwelled or BAPTIZED
by the Holy Spirit.

This is the very same COMFORTER that was sent
down from heaven and was seen as tongues of fire after Christ assended, though not so dramatically
visual as a Pentecost.

The Christian literally becomes the priest of
the temple of his own body, which houses the
very presence of God in the form of the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Spirit resides in the saved and not in
a temple or an alter built by man, nor does the
Holy Spirit indwell the elements you call a
sacrament.

This is the way it was and now is.

 

[WPutnam]

Originally posted by A_Christian:
The CHURCH at Pentecost is the same one that
exists today. It is composed of ALL
individuals who are indwelled or BAPTIZED
by the Holy Spirit.

To what "church" do these "individuals" belong to, sir? If you say, all of the denominations, then please explain to me why they are more or less teach and preach different doctrines?

Or is God the God of confusion?

This is the very same COMFORTER that was sent
down from heaven and was seen as tongues of fire after Christ assended, though not so dramatically
visual as a Pentecost.

I agree! Can you now show me exactly which "church" the holy Spirit came down upon, whose history you can trace to a given church today? Christ said there weill be but "one flock, one shephard" so how can there be more then one "flock"?

The Christian literally becomes the priest of
the temple of his own body, which houses the
very presence of God in the form of the Holy Ghost.

We Catholics understand and believe that as well, sir. We are all of the "Priesthood of believers" as it is sometimes called, but I sure hope you don't confuse them with the sacradotal priesthood that were originally the apostles themselves, to be succeeded by others by a layiing on of hands in ordination.

The Holy Spirit resides in the saved and not in
a temple or an alter built by man, nor does the
Holy Spirit indwell the elements you call a
sacrament.

How do you know that, sir? Who do you know who are "saved"? Saying that, I do not deny that the holy Spirit resides in whoever He chooses, depending upon the state of the heart of the individual, including the possibility of residing in a Protestant whereas perhaps not in the heart of a sinning Catholic. I do not limit where and what the holy Spirit does.

This is the way it was and now is.

With the caveats I have given, I could not agree more!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

LORD, have mercy on us.
CHRIST, have mercy on us.
LORD, have mercy on us.
CHRIST, hear us.
CHRIST, graciously hear us.
GOD, THE FATHER OF HEAVEN, have mercy on us.
GOD THE SON, REDEEMER OF THE WORLD, have mercy on us.
GOD THE HOLY GHOST, have mercy on us.
HOLY TRINITY, ONE GOD, have mercy on us.
HOLY MARY, pray for us.
HOLY MOTHER OF GOD, pray for us.
HOLY VIRGIN OF VIRGINS, pray for us.
ST. MICHAEL, pray for us.
ST. GABRIEL, pray for us.
ST. RAPHAEL, pray for us.
ALL YE HOLY ANGELS AND ARCHANGELS, pray for us.
ALL YE HOLY ORDERS OF BLESSED SPIRITS, pray for us.
ST. JOHN THE BAPTIST, pray for us.
ST. JOSEPH, pray for us.
ALL YE HOLY PATRIARCHS AND PROPHETS, pray for us.
ST. PETER, pray for us.
ST. PAUL, pray for us.
ST. ANDREW, pray for us.
ST. JAMES, pray for us.
ST. JOHN, pray for us.
ST. THOMAS, pray for us.
ST. JAMES, pray for us.
ST. PHILIP, pray for us.
ST. BARTHOLOMEW, pray for us.
ST. MATTHEW, pray for us.
ST. SIMON, pray for us.
ST. THADDEUS, pray for us.
ST. BARNABAS, pray for us.
ST. LUKE, pray for us.
ST. MARK, pray for us.
ST. PATRICK, pray for us.
ALL YE HOLY APOSTLES AND EVANGELIST, pray for us.
ALL YE HOLY DISCIPLES OF OUR LORD, pray for us.
ALL YE HOLY INNOCENTS, pray for us.
BE MERCIFUL, spare us, O Lord!
BE MERCIFUL, graciously hear us, O Lord!
FROM ALL EVIL, O Lord, deliver us.
FROM ALL SIN, O Lord, deliver us.
FROM THY WRATH, O Lord, deliver us.
FROM A SUDDEN AND UNPROVIDED DEATH, O Lord, deliver us.
FROM THE DECEITS OF THE DEVIL, O Lord, deliver us.
FROM ANGER, HATRED, AND ALL ILL WILL, O Lord, deliver us.
FROM THE SPIRIT OF FORNICATION, O Lord, deliver us.
FROM LIGHTNING AND TEMPEST, O Lord, deliver us.
FROM THE SCOURGE OF EARTHQUAKE, O Lord, deliver us.
FROM PESTILENCE, FAMINE, AND WAR, O Lord, deliver us.
FROM EVERLASTING DEATH, O Lord, deliver us.
THROUGH THE MYSTERY OF THY HOLY INCARNATION, O Lord, Deliver us.
THROUGH THY COMING, O Lord, deliver us.
THROUGH THY NATIVITY, O Lord, deliver us.
THROUGH THY BAPTISM AND HOLY FASTING, O Lord, deliver us.
THROUGH THY CROSS AND PASSION, O Lord, deliver us.
THROUGH THY DEATH AND BURIAL, O Lord, deliver us.
THROUGH THY HOLY RESURRECTION, O Lord, deliver us.
THROUGH THINE ADMIRABLE ASCENSION, O Lord, deliver us.
THROUGH THE COMING OF THE HOLY GHOST, THE PARACLETE, O Lord, deliver us.
IN THE DAY OF JUDGMENT, We Sinners beseech Thee, hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST SPARE US, We beseech Thee, hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST PARDON US, We beseech Thee, hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST VOUCHSAFE TO BRING US TO TRUE PENANCE, We Beseech Thee hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST VOUCHSAFE TO GOVERN AND PRESERVE THY HOLY CHURCH.... We beseech Thee, hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST VOUCHSAFE TO PRESERVE OUR APOSTOLIC PRELATE AND ALL ECCLESIASTICAL ORDERS IN HOLY RELIGION. We beseech Thee, hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST VOUCHSAFE TO HUMBLE THE ENEMIES OF THY HOLY CHURCH, We beseech Thee, hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST VOUCHSAFE TO GIVE PEACE AND TRUE CONCORD TO CHRISTIAN KINGS AND PRINCES, We beseech Thee, hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST VOUCHSAFE TO GRANT PEACE AND UNITY TO ALL CHRISTIAN PEOPLE, We beseech Thee, hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST VOUCHSAFE TO BRING BACK TO THE UNITY OF THE CHURCH ALL THOSE WHO HAVE STRAYED AWAY, AND LEAD TO THE LIGHT OF THE GOSPEL ALL UNBELIEVERS, We beseech Thee, hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST VOUCHSAFE TO CONFIRM AND PRESERVE US THY HOLY SERVICE, We beseech Thee, hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST LIFT UP OUR MINDS TO HEAVENLY DESIRES, We beseech Thee, hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST RENDER ETERNAL BLESSINGS TO ALL OUR BENEFACTORS, We beseech Thee, hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST DELIVER OUR SOULS AND THOSE OF OUR BRETHREN, RELATIVE, AND BENEFACTORS FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, We beseech Thee, hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST VOUCHSAFE TO GIVE AND PRESERVE THE FRUITS OF THE EARTH, We beseech Thee, hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST VOUCHSAFE TO GIVE ETERNAL REST TO ALL THE FAITHFUL DEPARTED, We beseech Thee, hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST VOUCHSAFE GRACIOUSLY TO HEAR US, We beseech Thee, hear us.
SON OF GOD, We beseech Thee, hear us.
LAMB OF GOD, WHO TAKEST AWAY THE SINS OF THE WORLD, Spare us, O Lord.
LAMB OF GOD, WHO TAKEST AWAY THE SINS OF THE WORLD, Graciously hear us, O Lord
LAMB OF GOD, WHO TAKEST AWAY THE SINS OF THE WORLD, Have mercy on us.
CHRIST, HEAR US.......
CHRIST, GRACIOUSLY HEAR US.......
LORD, HAVE MERCY ON US.......
CHRIST, HAVE MERCY ON US.......
LORD, HAVE MERCY ON US.......

- The Litany of Saints -

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by WPutnam:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
I have absolutely no problem with authority. It seems to me that tha RCC has the problem.

I could not disagree with you more! Holy Mother Church has exercised her authority since the times she was established by Christ!

Take a gander at all of the good reading material available, extant of the writings of the early church fathers who point to the authority of the Church:

http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/church.htm


God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15) </font>[/QUOTE]What you said is so true. I think every history book talks about the past power of the Catholic Church. It is evident in how it wielded its power in a number of countries over the years and in the crusades.

 

[WPutnam]

Originally posted by gb93433:

What you said is so true. I think every history book talks about the past power of the Catholic Church. It is evident in how it wielded its power in a number of countries over the years and in the crusades.

"Past" power? When did it stop exercising "power"? Did the Church have authority from Christ in the first place?

Like the power (influence, authority, what ever you want to label it) to call for a crusade was the wrong application of power? To rescue the holy Land from the Moslem hordes was one thing, for the crusaders who did great evil on their way there is quite another. Or, if not the crusades, would you be happy that Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris were to sport minerets, sir?

Or, are you going to state that the Church is guilty of those abuses along the way anyway?

Just wondering...

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Regina Angelorum, ora pro nobis!

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by WPutnam:
Does the church, as Christ founded it, have authority, sir? What does it mean to "bind and loose," sir? Have you noticed the actions of the Church (the only one around for the first 1000 years of church history) with the heresies that sprung up? What happens to the disobedient brother per Matthew 18:18?

The principles set forth in Mat.18 were for a local independent church, not a denomination, or monstrosity of an organization such as the RCC, but to a local assembly to exercise. The Catholic Church does not understand these principles or this concept of discipline as is evidenced in the past two years of on-going sex scandals within their organization.
Even in Mat.18 Jesus deliberately used the word ekklesia which simply means "assembly" or "congregation." It has nothing to do with denominations, or even the concept of churches being under the authority of one church. It simply means "assembly."

Remember all those epistles Paul wrote to those first churches, admonishing them, warning them, correcting them, but nowhere does he say going was a sin.

They were all local/regional churches who were a part of THE CHURCH! Christ established ONE church, not a multitude of churches all going their own ways and with their own doctrines, but ONE church!

In reality Christ did set forth some principles about the church in Mat.16 and 18, but the church age did not begin until the day of Pentecost, at which time the Holy Spirit came and indwelt believers. It was at that time that when 3,000 were saved, baptized, and added to the church, that the church they were added to was the local assembly in Jerusalem. There is no universal church here. If you are audacious enough to say that this speaks of the Catholic Church, there is a much better case for this church in Jerusalem to be called the First Baptist Church of Jerusalem rather than the Catholic Church. We just need to compare doctrine, and that is all.

Were they autonomous? If they were, Paul would have no authority to admonish them and correct them, just like the pope who refused King Henry VIIIth his divorce, thus setting the stage for the revolt of the Church in England to separate from the Church, the original Church, headquartered now in Rome.

Were they autonomous? You bet they were! Paul's role as an apostle, was very much like that of a missionary today. In fact the word missionary is derived from apostle. Apostle (Gk. apostolos) means "one sent with a message." When apostolos was translated into Latin, they used the word "mittere," from which our modern word "missionary" comes from--one sent with a message. Paul's "membership" was at Antioch. On each of his three missionary journeys he started and ended at Antioch, his home church. A missionary is one who, in effect, works himself out of a job. He goes to one area to which God sends him, establishes a church that he might pastor until he can appoint a suitable person, and then move on and establish another church in another area. He carries out the Great Commission (Mat.28:19,20), in this way. Paul in three missionary journeys established over 100 churches. He did not have authority over them when he was not acting as pastor, which was rarely. We can see this clearly from the church at Corinth. In 1Cor.7:1, we see that the letter arises because the Corinthians had written to him for advice. His letter is in response to theirs, answering their questions in response to their problems. In that context he rebukes the immorality mentioned in 1Cor.5, but it is the Corinthian church that has to take the action, not Paul. The Corinthians excommunicated the erring member not Paul. None of the other churches, not Rome or any other had any business in this affair. It was entirely in the hands of the Corinthians based on the principles that Jesus had set forth in Mat.18. There is no denomination in the Bible. But there are independent autonomous churches.

Unfortunately, those churches Paul admonished eventually separated from the Original Church as well - the Orthodox Schism circa A.D. 1000 - thus the Church in Corinth, Thessaloniki and Ephesus and other interesting places are now mostly Orthodox.

So, don't blame it on Paul. If people choose not to follow the Word of God whose fault is that? Two generations after Joshua died what were the Israelites doing? Check out the Book of Judges. The original church at Jerusalem (independently autonomous of the others), was never under the jurisdiction of Paul anyway. If you look today in Corinth I am sure that you can find a Baptist church somewhere.
DHK