(Continued from previous post)
And practice the church did, qb! Including the determining of the scope of scripture, canonized it and declared it divinely inspired "God breathed" scripture!
No other church can claim the audacity to do such a thing! Not one!
"Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church." (1 Tim 3:15)
If that does not give the church as a source of faith, since it is the storehouse of the truth and practice, then nothing I can add will convince you, qb.
The Catholic Church includes them in her membership however imperfect that membership may be.
Here is the official statement from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
838. "'The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.'[LG 15.] Those 'who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.'[UR 3.] With the ORTHODOX Churches, this communion is so profound 'that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist.'[Paul VI, Discourse, December 14, 1975; cf. UR 13-18.]"
To view the context, please visit http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/church3.html#CATHOLIC
Why would Christ establish an authoritarian church if we are not to put our faith and trust in Jesus Christ but through that church? When I say, "I have faith in Jesus Christ" is so because of the teachings of the Church, therefore, my faith is through the Church that I do so. Therefore, I have a hard time saying "I have faith in Jesus Christ but not His church" and not seeing it as a contradiction of terms. Look at Matthew 18:16-18 and note the final arbitrator in a dispute - The Church!
That "standard" is above those who serve here, even individual popes, bishops and priests, and of course, the sea of fallible men and woman who are her faithful laity, including me, who falls short of the glory of God.
Well now, He does in my church and guess how He does this?
He appointed a vicar to do it for him! An earthly vicar (second in command) who, in the flesh, and yes, in normal things, as fallible as you and I, but in those special cases of a decree that affects faith and morals, the holy Spirit protects him from error. The first of such "vicars" was St. Peter, the "Chief of the Apostles."
"He said to them, 'But who do you say that I am?'
Simon Peter said in reply, 'You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.'
Jesus said to him in reply, 'Blessed are you Simon, son of Jonah.
For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
And I so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church,
and the gates of the netherword shall not prevail against it.
And I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven.
Whatsoever you bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven;
and whatsoever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
(Matthew 16:15-19)
God bless,
PAX
Bill+†+
Et ego dico tibi quia tu es Petrus et super hanc petram
aedificabo ecclesiam meam et portae inferi non praevalebunt
adversum eam et tibi dabo claves regni caelorum et quodcumque
ligaveris super terram erit ligatum in caelis et quodcumque
solveris super terram erit solutum in caelis.
(Matt 16:18-19 From the Latin Vulgate)
What was "God's Word: was the Old Testament, now a closed covenant, and the "Oral Word of Jesus Christ" that he taught them while He was among them here on this earth. And bafore it was written, it was spoken that "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (church) with Peter given the "keys of the kingdom" of authority, underlined by the power to "bind an loose" that was later "etched in concrete" when the pen touched in papyrus it writings those oral words, now written words of Matthew 16:18-19.
And practice the church did, qb! Including the determining of the scope of scripture, canonized it and declared it divinely inspired "God breathed" scripture!
No other church can claim the audacity to do such a thing! Not one!
I will simply give one of my "taglines" to refute that:
"Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church." (1 Tim 3:15)
If that does not give the church as a source of faith, since it is the storehouse of the truth and practice, then nothing I can add will convince you, qb.
I have never insisted that the church was a building but was the faithful that make up her membership. And indeed, she is made up of those who are "believers in Jesus Christ" including, I might add, all other Christians who are not in a perfect union with the true church of Christ as established by Christ, a church, the only church, who can trace her origins back to Christ Himself. All others are schisms from the Mother Church, even while they may still believe in Jesus Christ.
The Catholic Church includes them in her membership however imperfect that membership may be.
Here is the official statement from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
838. "'The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.'[LG 15.] Those 'who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.'[UR 3.] With the ORTHODOX Churches, this communion is so profound 'that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist.'[Paul VI, Discourse, December 14, 1975; cf. UR 13-18.]"
To view the context, please visit http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/church3.html#CATHOLIC
"Nit" the Church? I am not ridiculing you here, as I make typos myself, but I think you mean "NOT the church." (Correct me if I am wrong here.)
Why would Christ establish an authoritarian church if we are not to put our faith and trust in Jesus Christ but through that church? When I say, "I have faith in Jesus Christ" is so because of the teachings of the Church, therefore, my faith is through the Church that I do so. Therefore, I have a hard time saying "I have faith in Jesus Christ but not His church" and not seeing it as a contradiction of terms. Look at Matthew 18:16-18 and note the final arbitrator in a dispute - The Church!
This is so simple: It is not because of the fallible nature of the men who serve the Church, but the ]I]divine charisma[/I] of the Church, who is collectively made up of those same fallible men and her lay faithful members so much but for the promise of the teaching magisterium of that church through the influence of the holy Spirit.
That "standard" is above those who serve here, even individual popes, bishops and priests, and of course, the sea of fallible men and woman who are her faithful laity, including me, who falls short of the glory of God.
When was the last time Jesus Christ came down from heaven and spoke directly, as "The Coach," to you through your church, qb? If so, how was he dressed? How tall was he and did he wear a beard? I'm being a little funny here, but my point is, Christ, being in heaven, does not act directly upon you through His church.
Well now, He does in my church and guess how He does this?
He appointed a vicar to do it for him! An earthly vicar (second in command) who, in the flesh, and yes, in normal things, as fallible as you and I, but in those special cases of a decree that affects faith and morals, the holy Spirit protects him from error. The first of such "vicars" was St. Peter, the "Chief of the Apostles."
To follow the church reminds me of my "tagline" I gave above, and to find the truth, guess what, qb?
Sure, I will be most happy to:
"He said to them, 'But who do you say that I am?'
Simon Peter said in reply, 'You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.'
Jesus said to him in reply, 'Blessed are you Simon, son of Jonah.
For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
And I so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church,
and the gates of the netherword shall not prevail against it.
And I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven.
Whatsoever you bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven;
and whatsoever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
(Matthew 16:15-19)
Of course! The trouble is, what is scripture? Or better, what is scripture and what is not? Go back and look at that list of those writings that did not make the grade and see if you can do better then the Church did. And what ever the Church did, she did so from the authority given to her by Christ Himself!
God bless,
PAX
Bill+†+
Et ego dico tibi quia tu es Petrus et super hanc petram
aedificabo ecclesiam meam et portae inferi non praevalebunt
adversum eam et tibi dabo claves regni caelorum et quodcumque
ligaveris super terram erit ligatum in caelis et quodcumque
solveris super terram erit solutum in caelis.
(Matt 16:18-19 From the Latin Vulgate)