Does the church conflict with teaching by Paul

[agedman]

1 Timothy 5:9-16

Why does the church not follow Paul’s teaching concerning widows under and over a certain age?

Is he too constrictive?

Is he out of date?

Is he culturally insensitive?

How would you teach the authority of Scriptures if you do not conform to them?

 

[Reformed]

Why does the church not follow Paul’s teaching concerning widows under and over a certain age?

When you refer to "the church" do you mean the evangelical church in the aggregate? Just like when it comes to church discipline, there are some churches that do it right while many others do not practice it at all.

 

[Rob_BW]

From what I can see, our over 60 widows are all financially set.

May I ask what what exactly you believe the church isn't doing in regards to the yoinger widows?

 

[Van]

Paul presented a culturally appropriate remedy for widows. In the three steps of bible study, does this passage have an application today with care provided by family, private insurance, and government programs. Certainly the church provides care for those in need.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

From what I can see, our over 60 widows are all financially set.

May I ask what what exactly you believe the church isn't doing in regards to the yoinger widows?

You would be wrong.

 

[Rob_BW]

You would be wrong.

Wait, you know thw financial status of the widows in our church?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I have a good brother/friend who is an Old Regular (Primitive Baptist) in the hills of Kentucky. When they rebuilt their church building the construction was done by the community... he is an electrician so he did the electrical ( panel, wiring, lighting and termination device points) others did the foundations, drywall etc. the budget back then was 10-12k to run the place. The Elders serve the church, via sermons, discipleship, baptisms (at the river) and communion. That’s it, acapella singing and straight gospel sermons. And don’t think these folks are rubes... no no, they are highly educated with advanced degrees in mathematics, physics, etc. But they live simple lives, dedicated to putting God first.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

And here is something I find very interested. For years I asked God to bless me in order to bring my home community back to Christ ... I wanted to be a mechanism to rebuild this communities relationship with God. I have totally failed in that endeavor. The area is now more transient, more secular, more postmodern. So as I look at my options, I find a church in the very community that my son just moved to... one that meets my criteria for Christian behavior.... one that I’ve been mentioning to my wife. Un- be-known to me, my Pam (wife) has been googling the place and listening to the sermons contained on the website... and she was delighted by the messages she has heard... so much so that she wrote and has been corresponding with the Teaching elder.

Now to put a spin on all this, she/ Pam had become calloused to the churches in our home community. And she has her reasons...let’s just say again, the churches here are post modern. Well, the sermons she listened to at the Winter-Garden PB church helped her to realize that there are indeed good gospel churches in other places other than this God forsaken place.... her words not mine. Folks, I rejoice in her seeing a future (with God) somewhere else. And I can for my own self praise the Lord, “God is good.”

 

[agedman]

9Let a widow be enrolled if she is not less than sixty years of age, having been the wife of one husband,a 10and having a reputation for good works: if she has brought up children, has shown hospitality, has washed the feet of the saints, has cared for the afflicted, and has devoted herself to every good work. 11But refuse to enroll younger widows, for when their passions draw them away from Christ, they desire to marry 12and so incur condemnation for having abandoned their former faith. 13Besides that, they learn to be idlers, going about from house to house, and not only idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying what they should not. 14So I would have younger widows marry, bear children, manage their households, and give the adversary no occasion for slander. 15For some have already strayed after Satan. 16If any believing woman has relatives who are widows, let her care for them. Let the church not be burdened, so that it may care for those who are truly widows.

Does the church follow this teaching?

Paul is strict concerning the age appropriateness of enrolling (put on the list for support) widows.

Is there Scriptural support for modifying or even ignoring the standard Paul presents?

 

[rlvaughn]

Does the church follow this teaching?

As Reformed mentioned, which church? Some do and some don't.

Paul is strict concerning the age appropriateness of enrolling (put on the list for support) widows.

Is there Scriptural support for modifying or even ignoring the standard Paul presents?

No, not in the context in which he was writing, a church taking on the support of widows. It should be appropriate to the age he set, and first the responsibility of the family.

That said, this does not restrict the church from helping anyone who is in need at the appropriate time they are in need, children, adults, husbands and wives, widows, widowers, and so on. Such help is taught in the Bible, but what Paul is talking about in 1 Timothy 5:9-16 is specific and ongoing support.

 

[Ziggy]

Could the scriptural principle regarding widows needing to be age 60 to be enrolled for support and younger widows suggested to remarry have been (unconsciously?) an underlying basis for Social Security, which requires a widow be 60 and not remarried before that point in order to receive her husband's benefits? Just wondering aloud....

 

[HankD]

Does the church conflict with teaching by Paul?

Yes. Paul doesn't like to see believers claiming allegiance to men by name...

e.g.
Some say I am of Cephas, others I am of Apollos.

We have many who say I am of Arius others I am of Calvin...

This is not good. I know supposedly it lets folks know where we stand but usually quarreling breaks out and often breaks down to an exchange of ad hominems.

 

[agedman]

Does the church conflict with teaching by Paul?

Yes. Paul doesn't like to see believers claiming allegiance to men by name...

e.g.
Some say I am of Cephas, others I am of Apollos.

We have many who say I am of Arius others I am of Calvin...

This is not good. I know supposedly it lets folks know where we stand but usually quarreling breaks out and often breaks down to an exchange of ad hominems.

It also (in the academic world) comes down to the puffing up of authors and numbers of publications.

I cannot begin to count the greater amount of publications written that added nothing of “new” or even noteworthy. Merely because the author needed to be a published author to gain tenure.

 

[atpollard]

Does the church follow this teaching?

To approximately the same extent that the widows do.

Paul is strict concerning the age appropriateness of enrolling (put on the list for support) widows.

Age is not the only requirement that Paul lists in the scriptures that you quoted, yet it is the only requirement that you are focusing on. Why not focus on "widows with no family" instead? Or widows who have lived a life of service to God? Paul excludes serial polygamists (v.9 "having been the wife of one husband"), so should the Church?

Is there Scriptural support for modifying or even ignoring the standard Paul presents?

All the standards that Paul presents, or just some?

Within the original cultural situation in which Paul wrote, the widows described had given their "best years" to the Church and had no other source of support. You can ask if the church should be caring for all widows (and orphans and the sick and the poor, etc.), but that is not what Paul is advocating in this particular section of Scripture.


Now to answer your question directly ... some Churches are. When a pastor of an Evangelical Free Church abandoned his vocation, his wife and his children, the Church Elders chose to continue to pay his salary to his family for years afterward as she struggled to put the pieces of her life back together and move forward. She was not a widow over 60, but she was no less vulnerable through no fault of her own. That Church did what was right for that woman.

 

[agedman]

To approximately the same extent that the widows do.


Age is not the only requirement that Paul lists in the scriptures that you quoted, yet it is the only requirement that you are focusing on. Why not focus on "widows with no family" instead? Or widows who have lived a life of service to God? Paul excludes serial polygamists (v.9 "having been the wife of one husband"), so should the Church?


All the standards that Paul presents, or just some?

All. I don't see an exclusion clause or anything to modify the "rules to live by" given by Paul.

I do understand the cultural nuances and the presentation Paul made would certainly have been in considering those items.

Within the original cultural situation in which Paul wrote, the widows described had given their "best years" to the Church and had no other source of support. You can ask if the church should be caring for all widows (and orphans and the sick and the poor, etc.), but that is not what Paul is advocating in this particular section of Scripture.

I agree. Which also excludes widows who haven't given their "best years" to the service of the Lord.

We might agree that such exclusion is unwarranted, but Paul didn't. I wonder if the reason was because he was also letting younger folks know that if they expect a return, they first must make the investment.

Now to answer your question directly ... some Churches are. When a pastor of an Evangelical Free Church abandoned his vocation, his wife and his children, the Church Elders chose to continue to pay his salary to his family for years afterward as she struggled to put the pieces of her life back together and move forward. She was not a widow over 60, but she was no less vulnerable through no fault of her own. That Church did what was right for that woman.

The church could make what decision it wants in this matter. I don't see it as violating Paul's thinking because the woman was not a widow, but a victim in much the same manner as the church. So, they supported each other in grief and in caring. How grace abounded in this!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Wait, you know thw financial status of the widows in our church?

My mom was a widow... I was the oldest at 12 yo and I looked after my younger siblings . Kinda know that if they can or can’t swing it by observation.

 

[atpollard]

Just an observation, but at the Pentecostal Church near my home the Men's Fellowship asked the "widows" at the church (who had a sort of mutual support group) what their needs were. The answer was a bit of a surprise in that their greatest need was simple handyman tasks. They had a light switch that needed to be replaced or a faucet that needed a new washer to stop the drip. The cost of an Electrician or Plumber to do some 'stupid simple' task was something not in their budget, but beyond their ability to do themselves.

Who would think that cleaning the leaves out of the gutters would really make a difference in someone's life. Yet who do they have to do it if the Church does not step up?

For anyone 'into' the Tithe, it is more than money ... Time, Talent and Treasure: Share what you have (Acts 3:6).

 

[rlvaughn]

...simple handyman tasks...a light switch that needed to be replaced or a faucet that needed a new washer to stop the drip...cleaning the leaves out of the gutters...

Good ideas.These are simple and easy and yet perhaps the kind of stuff most often overlooked.