Does the Effectual Calling not work on the RICH?

[Skandelon]

While Christ was here he had many express a desire to follow him...

Some followed, others, like the Rich Young Ruler, don't. Why? Calvinists would say, "Because he wasn't chosen." The scripture says, "Because he was a man of great wealth."

Jesus even goes on to say that it is more difficult for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kindom of God. Why?

If it's God's "effectual calling" that determines if they will enter into the kingdom, what does a man's wealth have to do with it?

Think about it. Money (like envy in Rm 11:14) affects man's will. Rich men are more likely to be enslaved to money and after considering the cost of discipleship they are more likely to think it is too great a cost.

Calvinism's teachings don't make much sense in light of these teachings, could you explain them?

 

[Jerome]

Last time I checked, Calvinists were saying that the rich young ruler was saved, because Jesus loved him[Mark 10:21], and, well, Jesus wouldn't have loved some non-elect person, now would He? Wouldn't fit with the "grand theory".

 

[Winman]

Perhaps God is a Democrat and hates the wealthy! :laugh:

 

[Skandelon]

I want to add a point of consideration:

In Romans 11:14 Paul speaks of "provoking his Jewish brethren to envy so that some of them might be saved."

If man's will has nothing to do with their being regenerated then what would the point of provoking a man's will with jealousy be? Isn't the effectual call sufficient to "provoke" a man's will to desire Christ? What purpose does envy or any type of "provoking" accomplish?

 

[Tom Butler]

I'm going to speculate here about why it's difficult to a right man to get into heaven.

My understanding is that, in that culture, prosperity and good health were considered signs of God's blessing, and even more than that, God's approval.

A rich man might conclude that God is pleased with him and is wealth is an indicator. With that attitude, he might conclude that he is saved, or at least has no need for a Savior because God has already given his approval.

I won't defend this idea, but I thought I throw it out there

 

[Winman]

I'm going to speculate here about why it's difficult to a right man to get into heaven.

My understanding is that, in that culture, prosperity and good health were considered signs of God's blessing, and even more than that, God's approval.

A rich man might conclude that God is pleased with him and is wealth is an indicator. With that attitude, he might conclude that he is saved, or at least has no need for a Savior because God has already given his approval.

I won't defend this idea, but I thought I throw it out there

All joking aside, you are absolutely correct. This is why Jesus's disciples were so amazed when Jesus said it would be more difficult for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to be saved. And so they asked, "who then can be saved?" It was the general belief that a rich person was favored by God over others. It was also thought that God was displeased with unfortunate people like the lame or blind, or those to whom accidents happened as the 18 that were killed when a wall collapsed on them in Luke 13.

Matt 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

 

[Skandelon]

Anyone with answers to the OP? How does the provoking of the will through envy and the effect of wealth play into a system where salvation is completely an unconditional work of regeneration?

 

[J.D.]

All joking aside, you are absolutely correct. This is why Jesus's disciples were so amazed when Jesus said it would be more difficult for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to be saved. And so they asked, "who then can be saved?" It was the general belief that a rich person was favored by God over others. It was also thought that God was displeased with unfortunate people like the lame or blind, or those to whom accidents happened as the 18 that were killed when a wall collapsed on them in Luke 13.

Matt 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Yes, this is correct. The fact that God is the ultimate cause of man's salvation does not negate that God uses means to accomplish it. A sinner born into wealth can be doubly blind to his need of salvation, but when the light of Christ shines in, he can be saved.

Is it your position that the rich cannot be saved?

 

[Skandelon]

Yes, this is correct. The fact that God is the ultimate cause of man's salvation does not negate that God uses means to accomplish it. A sinner born into wealth can be doubly blind to his need of salvation, but when the light of Christ shines in, he can be saved.

Is it your position that the rich cannot be saved?

What do you mean by "doubly blind?" How can a man be more blind than that of Total Depravity? Is this "doubly blinded" idea a biblically supported concept?

 

[J.D.]

What do you mean by "doubly blind?" How can a man be more blind than that of Total Depravity? Is this "doubly blinded" idea a biblically supported concept?

Maybe not. I do know of a passage that refers to people being "twice dead". But I'll withdraw it.

Now back to my question,

Is it your position that the rich cannot be saved?

 

[Skandelon]

Maybe not. I do know of a passage that refers to people being "twice dead". But I'll withdraw it.

Now back to my question,Is it your position that the rich cannot be saved?

Nope, but apparently it is much more difficult for them than others. Why? Because wealth affects the will. Just as scripture explains, the Rich Young Ruler walked away BECAUSE he was a man of great wealth. Not because he wasn't elect or because he was Totally Depraved. He considered the cost and it was too high for him.

Same with the issue of envy. What role does the provoking of envy play if the will of man is not an issue?

 

[J.D.]

Nope, but apparently it is much more difficult for them than others. Why? Because wealth affects the will. Just as scripture explains, the Rich Young Ruler walked away BECAUSE he was a man of great wealth. Not because he wasn't elect or because he was Totally Depraved. He considered the cost and it was too high for him.

So would you say that he was a worst sinner than other sinners? And whether someone gets save or not depends to what degree they are in sin? Are you implying that salvation is then easy for poor people, even though they are sinners?

Same with the issue of envy. What role does the provoking of envy play if the will of man is not an issue?

Envy is a means of bringing them to Christ. But if they are hardened, of what use is means?

 

[canadyjd]

..Matt 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

I notice v.26. Jesus is answering the question of the disciples... "who then can be saved?"

The answer is "with men this is impossible..." It is impossible for men to be saved on their own. Not just rich men, but "men" in general (i.e. mankind)

"....but with God all things are possible".

Salvation is only possible for men "with God" involved in the salvation process.

peace to youraying:

 

[J.D.]

I notice v.26. Jesus is answering the question of the disciples... "who then can be saved?"

The answer is "with men this is impossible..." It is impossible for men to be saved on their own. Not just rich men, but "men" in general (i.e. mankind)

"....but with God all things are possible".

Salvation is only possible for men "with God" involved in the salvation process.

peace to youraying:

Touché!!

----------

 

[Skandelon]

I notice v.26. Jesus is answering the question of the disciples... "who then can be saved?"

The answer is "with men this is impossible..." It is impossible for men to be saved on their own. Not just rich men, but "men" in general (i.e. mankind)

"....but with God all things are possible".

Salvation is only possible for men "with God" involved in the salvation process.

peace to youraying:

We all believe that without God salvation would be impossible and that all things are possible with Him. That doesn't answer the question as to why it would be more difficult for a rich man to be saved if indeed the effectual calling is the means by which we all are regenerated.

The bible also says, "all things are possible to him that believes." It is just more difficult for a wealthy man to have faith, because he has a tendency to believe in himself and his money instead of depending on another.

 

[Skandelon]

So would you say that he was a worst sinner than other sinners? And whether someone gets save or not depends to what degree they are in sin? Are you implying that salvation is then easy for poor people, even though they are sinners?

I'm not implying anything. I'm just quoting the text. Jesus is the one who says its difficult for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven, not me. I'm asking how you understand that within your understanding of unconditional election and irresistible grace.

Envy is a means of bringing them to Christ. But if they are hardened, of what use is means?

Once the Gentiles are established in the church God's purpose in actively blinding the Jews would be over. So, Paul is saying that once the Gentiles lives are changed by Christ and the Jews witness all that God is doing in and through the Gentile believers they might become jealous and start looking into this Christianity thing a little more closely. Paul thinks this envy might provoke some of these Jews to leave their unbelief in which case they would be grafted back in and be able to see, hear, understand and repent. Why would this even be necessary if the effectual work of regeneration was the means God employed to change a man's will?

 

[canadyjd]

We all believe that without God salvation would be impossible and that all things are possible with Him. That doesn't answer the question as to why it would be more difficult for a rich man to be saved if indeed the effectual calling is the means by which we all are regenerated.

First, we don't "all believe" the salvation is impossible without God, or that all things are possible with God, but that is besides the point.

Matt. 19:23 "And Jesus said to His disciples, 'Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven..."

Jesus doesn't say it is "harder" or "more difficult" for a rich man to enter into heaven than someone else. He says it is "hard". In fact, Jesus further explains in v.26 that salvation is "impossible" for all men. You can't get any harder than "impossible", can you?

At no time does Jesus say it is harder or more difficult for God to bring a rich man to salvation than anyone else. Never does He qualify God in such a way. All things are possible with God.

He is teaching His disciples a truth about the deceitfulness of wealth and their own attitudes toward wealth and wealthy people.

peace to youraying:

 

[Skandelon]

First, we don't "all believe" the salvation is impossible without God, or that all things are possible with God, but that is besides the point.

Who doesn't believe this? An atheist?

Matt. 19:23 "And Jesus said to His disciples, 'Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven..."

Jesus doesn't say it is "harder" or "more difficult" for a rich man to enter into heaven than someone else. He says it is "hard". In fact, Jesus further explains in v.26 that salvation is "impossible" for all men. You can't get any harder than "impossible", can you?

Actually, he says,"with man this is impossible," meaning no one can earn his way to heaven through works, wealth or fame as was the common misconception of that day. A man is wealthy, he must be favored by God. A man is poor, he must not be favored. But "with God all things are possible," meaning that by his grace anyone might be saved.

At no time does Jesus say it is harder or more difficult for God to bring a rich man to salvation than anyone else. Never does He qualify God in such a way. All things are possible with God.

He does point out the difficulty of a rich man being saved though, you can't get around that. Why point that out if its equally difficult for all regardless of wealth?

Why does he on the other hand use a child as an example of what we must become like in order to enter his kingdom? Isn't a child just as Totally Depraved as an adult? What is different from a Rich Man and a young child with regard to salvation in an completely "unconditional" system?

 

[J.D.]

I'm not implying anything. I'm just quoting the text. Jesus is the one who says its difficult for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven, not me. I'm asking how you understand that within your understanding of unconditional election and irresistible grace.

My understanding of uncondtional election and irresistible grace is that salvation is difficult, even impossible, for anyone that is self-satsified in their sin, whether rich or poor, and that God can and will save all of those He has chosen to save, whether rich or poor, by the power of a changed heart, through faith in Christ.

 

[canadyjd]

Actually, he says,"with man this is impossible," meaning no one can earn his way to heaven through works, wealth or fame as was the common misconception of that day.

The "this" is "who can be saved". That is, salvation is impossible for all men by themselves. He doesn't qualify that one type of man is "more impossible" than another.

He does point out the difficulty of a rich man being saved though, you can't get around that. Why point that out if its equally difficult for all regardless of wealth?

As I already said, to bring to His disciple's attention their own attitudes toward wealth and wealthy people.

Why does he on the other hand use a child as an example of what we must become like in order to enter his kingdom?

This isn't part of the thread. Why don't you start another? I don't think we have enough threads attempting to discredit "calvinism".

peace to youraying: