Does the Effectual Calling not work on the RICH?

[Skandelon]

My understanding of uncondtional election and irresistible grace is that salvation is difficult, even impossible, for anyone that is self-satsified in their sin, whether rich or poor, and that God can and will save all of those He has chosen to save, whether rich or poor, by the power of a changed heart, through faith in Christ.

I understand that, so why would Christ point out that it is difficult (or even impossible) for a rich man, as apposed to anyone else, to be saved? Why does it say that he walked away sad because he was a man of great wealth? Why doesn't it just say he wasn't chosen or something to that effect? What does it have to do with money?

And what does role does envy have to play?

Aren't both money and envy things that have a strong impact on man's will? Couldn't it be that Paul and Christ were acknowledging this obvious truth that you cannot serve two masters? Don't they know, as we know from experience ourselves, that money can distract us and lure us away from following God?

Doesn't jealousy provoke men to work harder to keep up with the Joneses? Isn't that something that provokes man's will? Could it be that is why Paul speaks of it as having the potential to cause Jews to see the good things happening in the lives of the Gentile believers and making them want to change and believe the gospel?

Doesn't that just seem to make Soooo much more sense to the natural reading of these texts?

 

[J.D.]

Once the Gentiles are established in the church God's purpose in actively blinding the Jews would be over. So, Paul is saying that once the Gentiles lives are changed by Christ and the Jews witness all that God is doing in and through the Gentile believers they might become jealous and start looking into this Christianity thing a little more closely. Paul thinks this envy might provoke some of these Jews to leave their unbelief in which case they would be grafted back in and be able to see, hear, understand and repent. Why would this even be necessary if the effectual work of regeneration was the means God employed to change a man's will? (underlines added by J.D.)

1. How much of the Bible contains what Paul thinks? Is this something the Holy Ghost, speaking through Paul, is not sure about?

2. God has chosen to use various means to bring his elect to Christ. In this case, envy brought some Jews to repentance and faith. But tell me, how did that plan pan out? How many Jews have been brought to faith through envy? Not many. So does that mean that God's plan failed?

 

[Skandelon]

The "this" is "who can be saved". That is, salvation is impossible for all men by themselves. He doesn't qualify that one type of man is "more impossible" than another.

I understand that, and we agree. Without God it is impossible for anyone to be saved. But scripture also teaches that with faith all things are possible. We must believe in GOD to be saved and what is it about a RICH man that makes them not trust in God? Could it be they are not in need of God because they think they have all they need? Could it be they are trying to be saved by their own accomplishments and that their master is money? Without God they cannot be saved and the reason Christ specifically points out a RICH man is to reveal this truth.

As I already said, to bring to His disciple's attention their own attitudes toward wealth and wealthy people.This isn't part of the thread. Why don't you start another? I don't think we have enough threads attempting to discredit "calvinism".

I started this thread and this is exactly the point I was wanting to discuss. If Christ was just attempting, as you say, to bring to His disciples attention their own attitude toward wealth, then why did he speak about the difficulty of a wealthy person being saved? What is it about wealth that is a potential snare?

 

[Skandelon]

1. How much of the Bible contains what Paul thinks? Is this something the Holy Ghost, speaking through Paul, is not sure about?

No, I think Paul really believes this and its inspired by the Holy Spirit, don't you?

2. God has chosen to use various means to bring his elect to Christ. In this case, envy brought some Jews to repentance and faith.

Ok, and my question is WHY? Doesn't the effectual work of regeneration completely conform man's will to desire God and come to him? If so, what role does envy play?

But tell me, how did that plan pan out? How many Jews have been brought to faith through envy? Not many. So does that mean that God's plan failed?

Thousands? Hundreds? I don't know, how would I? And on what basis do you think that "not many" have?

I imagine that if I were a Jew of those days and saw all these unclean Gentiles leave behind their sinful lives and start sharing with one another, worshipping God and loving each other I would have started to wonder what they had that I didn't, wouldn't you? I think God's plan to provoke the rebellious Jews to envy was pretty successful, but even if only one Jew was provoked to envy the argument still stands, what purpose did it serve?

 

[canadyjd]

.....I started this thread and this is exactly the point I was wanting to discuss. If Christ was just attempting, as you say, to bring to His disciples attention their own attitude toward wealth, then why did he speak about the difficulty of a wealthy person being saved? What is it about wealth that is a potential snare?

As you stated before, rich people were considered to have been favored by God (and saved). That was the attitude of the disciples.

When the disciples say "who then can be saved", they are expressing a belief that if the rich are not saved, then no one can be saved.

Jesus uses the first point about the rich man to express the larger truth that with all men (rich, poor, slave, free etc...), salvation is impossible without God.

So, the point isn't that it is "harder" for God to save the rich, but that it is impossible for men to be saved without God intervening in their lives.

Now, let me ask you something. You have stated that God's intervention is necessary for salvation. Does God use more influence on some than on others? Or does God use the exact amount of influence on each person?

peace to youraying:

 

[J.D.]

No, I think Paul really believes this and its inspired by the Holy Spirit, don't you?

Yes. But you are the one who used the word "think". But it's not related to the issue at hand, so let's drop that argument. I don't "think" you really meant to say "think". Did you?

Ok, and my question is WHY? Doesn't the effectual work of regeneration completely conform man's will to desire God and come to him? If so, what role does envy play?

Well, I wanted to avoid this topic but you push me to it. Some precision is required in which I may not represent the majority opinion, but I see like this: The means of envy the the way that God brings some to knowledgable conversion after He has regenerated them and changed their wills. So in bringing the Jews to salvation God necessarily uses means, in this case, envy. Means are only effective, or effectual, in the regenerate.

Some will not cut exacty that way, but that's the way I see it.

Thousands? Hundreds? I don't know, how would I? And on what basis do you think that "not many" have? I imagine that if I were a Jew of those days and saw all these unclean Gentiles leave behind their sinful lives and start sharing with one another, worshipping God and loving each other I would have started to wonder what they had that I didn't, wouldn't you? I think God's plan to provoke the rebellious Jews to envy was pretty successful,

I could look up references for you, but just read the book of Acts and see for yourself how the Jews overwhelmingly rejected the Gospel, and any Church history will lack a record of any numerically significant Jewish conversion.

but even if only one Jew was provoked to envy the argument still stands, what purpose did it serve?

There's no argument here as to whether God used envy or not to bring at least some Jews to faith, and it did serve its purpose, and if indeed a future national conversion is in the offing, it may yet again serve its purpose. This deep in the conversation, I've lost track of what the point is other than you seem to be convinced that God using the means of envy somehow proves your point.

 

[Skandelon]

Well, I wanted to avoid this topic but you push me to it. Some precision is required in which I may not represent the majority opinion, but I see like this: The means of envy the the way that God brings some to knowledgable conversion after He has regenerated them and changed their wills. So in bringing the Jews to salvation God necessarily uses means, in this case, envy. Means are only effective, or effectual, in the regenerate.

I can see why you would want to avoid this topic. It was answers like this that convinced me to leave Calvinism...way too much textual gymnastics for me.

You have God regenerating the Jew, that was previously hardened, and then making him envious so as to bring him to "knowledgeable conversion" (a new one to me).

But, I still don't see what purpose the envy serves in the life of a man who has a new heart. If he has been regenerated and his will is new then what purpose does envy play? What does envy accomplish that the work of regeneration has not?

 

[J.D.]

I can see why you would want to avoid this topic. It was answers like this that convinced me to leave Calvinism...way too much textual gymnastics for me.

You have God regenerating the Jew, that was previously hardened, and then making him envious so as to bring him to "knowledgeable conversion" (a new one to me).

But, I still don't see what purpose the envy serves in the life of a man who has a new heart. If he has been regenerated and his will is new then what purpose does envy play? What does envy accomplish that the work of regeneration has not?

That's funny, I found the Calvinistic order of salvation refreshingly clarifying when I first came across it. Nothing confusing. No "gymnastics". It's simple. Regeneration, then conversion. I didn't want to bring it up because I can see the thread becoming immediately derailed on that issue. It's already been hashed out recently.

Regeneration brings about the change of disposition, making the "envy" effectual in bring about conversion. The cause and means work together in that fasion to bring about the determined effects and ends. I don't know how simpler it can be.

 

[Winman]

Well, I wasn't around back then, but I would bet that when Gentiles received the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit such as speaking in tongues (the real thing), healing and miracles, that many of the Jews were indeed envious of them.

And since that time as Christianity generally spread north and west, those Christian nations became more powerful and influencial in the world than Israel and the Jews. To this day the Jews depend upon us a great deal which would be very humbling to this people who believe themselves elect.

 

[J.D.]

Well, I wasn't around back then, but I would bet that when Gentiles received the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit such as speaking in tongues (the real thing), healing and miracles, that many of the Jews were indeed envious of them.

And since that time as Christianity generally spread north and west, those Christian nations became more powerful and influencial in the world than Israel and the Jews. To this day the Jews depend upon us a great deal which would be very humbling to this people who believe themselves elect.

Derailing the topic, but interesting. Maybe start a new thread? Anyway, when you say "the Jews depend upon us a great deal", I bet the Jews would vehemently disagree. In fact, I bet they would deny having "envy" toward anyone including American Christians.

 

[Skandelon]

That's funny, I found the Calvinistic order of salvation refreshingly clarifying when I first came across it. Nothing confusing. No "gymnastics". It's simple. Regeneration, then conversion. I didn't want to bring it up because I can see the thread becoming immediately derailed on that issue. It's already been hashed out recently.

Derailed? This is the very subject of the thread. The use of means and the affect of wealth, as explained in the first few posts...

Regeneration brings about the change of disposition, making the "envy" effectual in bring about conversion. The cause and means work together in that fasion to bring about the determined effects and ends. I don't know how simpler it can be.

So, regeneration is not giving someone a new heart and a new will by which they immediately cry out for mercy? It's just a "change of disposition?"

Envy is a provoking of the WILL, if the will has already been changed by the work of regeneration their would be NO need for anything to provoke it.

 

[just-want-peace]

Hang in there Skandelon, you are backing them into a corner; tho' they'll never admit it!:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Winman]

Derailing the topic, but interesting. Maybe start a new thread? Anyway, when you say "the Jews depend upon us a great deal", I bet the Jews would vehemently disagree. In fact, I bet they would deny having "envy" toward anyone including American Christians.

There are quite a few reasons for the Jews to envy Christians

What the Jews had or what the Jews had been promised

What the Church (made up of mostly Gentiles) now enjoys

SALVATION

"Salvation is of the Jews" (John 4:22)

"Through their (Israel’s) fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles" (Rom. 11:11)
"Be it know unto you (Israel), that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it" (Acts 28:28; cf. 13:46).

BLESSING

"I will bless thee and make thy name great" (Genesis 12:2)
"I (the LORD) will bless them" (Num. 6:27)

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ" (Ephesians 1:3; cf. Gal. 3:14)

A SPECIAL PEOPLE

"For thou art an holy people unto the LORD God; the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto Himself, above all people who are upon the face of the earth" (Deut. 7:6)

"Who gave Himself for us that He might redeem us from all iniquity and purify unto Himself a peculiar people (a special people of His own), zealous of good works" (Titus 2:14 and cf. 1Pet.2:9).

A CHOSEN PEOPLE

"The LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto Himself. The LORD did not set His love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people" (Deut. 7:6-7)

But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren, beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation" (2 Thess. 2:13)
"He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world" (Eph. 1:4)

REDEEMED

"And what one nation in the earth is like thy people, Israel, whom God went to redeem to be His own people" (1 Chron. 17:21)

"In whom (Christ) we have redemption through His blood" (Eph. 1:7)
"For ye are bought with a price" (1 Cor. 6:20)

REST

"To whom he said, This is the rest by which ye may cause the weary to rest, and this is the refreshing; yet they would not hear" (Isaiah 28:12; cf. 30:15)

"Come unto Me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest . . . and ye shall find rest unto your souls" (Matthew 11:28-29)

THE KINGDOM

"Behold the days come saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper… in His days Judah shall be saved and Israel shall dwell safely" (Jeremiah 23:5-6; cf. Lk.1:32-33)

"Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness and hath translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son" (Colossians 1:13).
"For the kingdom of God is not food and drink, but righteousness and joy and peace in the Holy Spirit" (Rom. 14:17).

NEARNESS OF GOD

"For what nation is there so great, who hath God as nigh (near) unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon Him for? (Deut. 4:7)

"But now in Christ Jesus ye who were once far off are made nigh (near) by the blood of Christ"
(Eph. 2:13)

POSSESSING GOD'S HOLY WORD

"And what nation is there so great, who hath statutes and ordinances as righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?" (Deut.4:8)

"For I have given unto them the words which Thou gavest Me . . . I have given them thy Word" (John 17:8,14)

THE BLESSING OF FORGIVENESS

"Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered" (Psalm 32:1)
"I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel...for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jeremiah 31:31,34)

"In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins (Eph. 1:70)
"Having forgiven you all trespasses" (Col. 2:13; cf. Rom. 4:6-9).
"And their sins and iniquities I will remember no more" (Hebrews 10:17).

THE PROMISE OF THE SPIRIT

"And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes"
(Ezekiel 36:26-27)
"And shall put my Spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land" (Ezekiel 37:14; compare Isaiah 32:15; 44:3)

"What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you?" (1 Cor. 6:19)
"Ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you" (Romans 8:9)

ACCESS TO THE HOLY OF HOLIES

"But into the second (the most holy place) went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood"
(Heb. 9:7)

"Having boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus... let us be drawing near" (Heb.10:19-22; 4:16)

CHILDREN OF ABRAHAM

"I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me... They answered, and said unto Him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham" (John 8:37,39; cf. Matt. 3:9)

"They who are of faith are the sons of Abraham...and if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed"(Galatians 3:7,9,29)
"That he (Abraham) might be the father of all them that believe"(Rom. 4:11)