Thinkingstuff
Active Member
You are not getting the point. Who is the head of the body or the church? What makes up the Church. Can you be saved and not be a part of the body of Christ?
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Does The RCC See faithful Jews/Muslims going to heaven?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
- Start date
You are not getting the point. Who is the head of the body or the church? What makes up the Church. Can you be saved and not be a part of the body of Christ?
jesus is head of the Church, and that Church are the living and dead saints saved by grace of God, no earthly organization or church building!
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Interesting answer
Yes absolutely, however, one correction those who have "fallen asleep" in Christ are never truelly dead. Just seperated from their physical bodies for a time
I don't know why you put this in there. The Catholic church is not an "earthly organization". But the Apostolic Ecclessia of which Jesus is the head.
absolutely! No church building could ever be a substitute for the body of Christ. The Church is the Unified body of Christ made up of people note stone and mortar.
Let me give you a different answer with a different perspective.
First, I don't believe in a "universal" church, a "universal" body of believers. Those terms are restricted to local churches. The word church is translated from ekklesia which always means assembly. It is impossible to have an unassembled assembly. The very definition contradicts the idea of a universal church.
Secondly, there was never any church in the OT. So it the very idea of a "universal church" would exclude all OT believers.
There are many other names that the Bible uses that includes all believers.
One of them is the "family of God," which I believe is a good and accurate term. When one trusts the Lord as their Saviour they become one of his children. They must be born into his family. One is not born into a church, they are born into God's family. Thus any kind of church can be left out of this discussion completely.
The question then becomes, first, what does it mean to be "born again"?
And, secondly, can a Muslim believe all that the Bible teaches on what it means to be born again, and still be a Muslim?
Even Nicodemus, a teacher of the Jews, believing as a devout Jew, was not born again. If a devout Rabbi was not born again, how then could a Muslim be born again? Does he believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah, the Savior of the world? He must believe much more than that, but that is a starting point. Nicodemus had to start there.
How could you possibly know that?
And it's literally BORN FROM ABOVE.
How could you possibly know that Nicodemus was not a child of the heavenly Zion?
I totally disagree with you. Even the tone, the gentleness which Christ dealt with him who slipped away and came to him by night disagrees with that. The actions recorded of him later on in the gospel disagrees with that. Nicodemus was ATTRACTED to the light just as Christ explained in v 21.
Again, it's BORN FROM ABOVE and you don't know that.
And HOW is explained in v 8.
Because the Scripture says so. His testimony says so. Jesus says so.
Jesus said.
Nicodemus you must be born again. (John 3:3) Why would he say that unless he wasn't born again. The answer that Nicodemus responded with was a confused answer.
How can a man be born when he is old. Shall he enter into his mother's womb and be born a second time.
First comes the command from Jesus.
Second comes the confusing answer from Nicodemus about "how can I."
I am not here to quibble about words.
He was a child of the devil (John 8:44) not a child of God. He had not yet been converted. Jesus said:
"Art thou are a Rabbi of Israel and knowest not these things."
He slipped away at night for fear of the Jews. If he truly was a believer he would have acted as the other disciples and had no fear of Jesus at all. In fact he would have left the Sanhedrin. He was attracted to Jesus as most people were. He knew who Christ was. Look at his opening words.
"We know that thou are a man come from God for no man can do the things that thou does except God be with him."
That is all that he said. He wanted to know more. Who is this Jesus? Is he really the Messiah, the One to come? He had heard him; he had seen his miracles; now was the time to find out more.
I do know that that is an alternative interpretation but not a necessary one.
John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
You read too much into that verse. That simply tells of the working of the Holy Spirit. Sometimes he works in one place more than he works in another place. But in no way does that mean he is confined. Often you hear of a revival breaking out, as we read about in the first part of Acts 8 when Philip was in Samaria. "The wind was blowing there," or the Holy Spirit was working there. But that doesn't mean he wasn't working in the heart of the Ethiopian Eunuch at the same time.
Last edited by a moderator:
Dhk
If you translate it
From Greek or Hebrew to English it isn't an easy translation it can mean either
Born from above
Or
Born again
But people in the east talk more mystical in codex sinicatus the oldest complete existing bible from the year 300 found in southern Egypt in 1846 by a Russian explorer its greek is clearly
Born from above
If you translate it
From Greek or Hebrew to English it isn't an easy translation it can mean either
Born from above
Or
Born again
But people in the east talk more mystical in codex sinicatus the oldest complete existing bible from the year 300 found in southern Egypt in 1846 by a Russian explorer its greek is clearly
Born from above
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
You've made some interesting point however to deal with one misconseption that you present namely
What Daniel predicted of the Son of Man was that he would establish a New Kingdom from which the old pours into. Jesus said the Kingdom of Heaven or God is at hand or here right now. Therefore as the King and the proporgator of the New Kingdom which includes OT and NT people alike we see the Church as the body of Believers from of old as well as the NT times thus the ecclessia is the Kingdom which Jesus speaks of on Earth and in Heaven.
What one chooses to call the "Church/bride/Body etc" of Christ though did NOT officially start up until the time of yeshua coming to earth, som ALL saved before him were placed in a holding place called Abrahams Bosum, and those believers went to heaven with jesus when he ascended ...
So they were saved by grace, but were NOT of the Church of Christ....
he knew that Jesus was ateacher sent by God, attested to by Miracles...
PERIOD...
He did NOT know of Him as Messiah, Son of God YET...
he still needed to be reborn again to enter the Kingdom of God!
Fred's Wife
Member
I agree with DHK..."there was never any church in the OT".
Daniel was a prophet to Israel, not to the Church. This "New" kingdom of which Daniel prophesied is the re-establishment of Israel's fallen kingdom.(Matthew 25:31; Daniel 7) This is the glorious earthly kingdom Jesus Christ will establish upon His return, the kingdom foretold by Old Testament prophets. Christ's kingdom will not end at the conclusion of the 1,000 years, but will continue forever (Isaiah 9:7). The Millennial reign is only one phase to Christ's eternal rule. (Psalm 72; Isaiah 11:16; 35; 60; Jeremiah 30; Daniel 7, etc.)
Daniel was a prophet to Israel, not to the Church. This "New" kingdom of which Daniel prophesied is the re-establishment of Israel's fallen kingdom.(Matthew 25:31; Daniel 7) This is the glorious earthly kingdom Jesus Christ will establish upon His return, the kingdom foretold by Old Testament prophets. Christ's kingdom will not end at the conclusion of the 1,000 years, but will continue forever (Isaiah 9:7). The Millennial reign is only one phase to Christ's eternal rule. (Psalm 72; Isaiah 11:16; 35; 60; Jeremiah 30; Daniel 7, etc.)
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Using your same argument the attoning blood of Jesus Christ didn't apply to anyone before his death an resurrection which would exclude all OT people of God.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
I don't think that lines up with Scripture. Especially with Daniels prophesy.
Now if this dream relates to the King's dream of the 4th Kingdom ie
which is considered the Roman Empire then we can say as the fourth kingdom was destroyed as "in those days" the kingdom was established. Christianity brought the downfall of the Roman Empire and the nature of the empire was entirely changed by Christianity. So it would stand to reason that this isn't a future event for us but a past one though it was a future one for Daniel.
Note I don't hold to any version of the rapture eschatology initially created by Darby. I am Amillenialist in my eschatological views.
Not at all!
OT believers in the coming Messiah were saved by the Grace of the Cross yet to come, just as we receive Grace by it looking back!
Just stating that they would be in heaven with yeshua right now, but that they would be in the Kingdom of god, but now the church of god, as the Church is made up of all NT saints from yeshua time forward!
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
So it is with the Kingdom of God or the Ecclessia. Jesus is the fulfillment of the OT just as his Kingdom is the fulfillment of the OT.
I believe the church entire to include OT saints are with Jesus right now and that Jesus dwells with his Kingdom in both the temporal and the eternal.
It's anothen:
from above, from a higher place
of things which come from heaven or God
from the first, from the beginning, from the very first
anew, over again
It always has the meaning 'above' when used by John:
3 Jesus answered and said to him, 'Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;' (YLT)
7 'Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above; (YLT)
31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly , and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. Jn 3
11 Jesus answered , Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also his coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout . Jn 19
As is the case with James:
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Ja 1
15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure , then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. Ja 3
King James Word Usage - Total: 13
from above 5, top 3, again 2, from the first 1, from the beginning 1, not translated 1
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/anothen.html
Last edited by a moderator:
Disagree on all three. You judge harshly.
That's your paraphrase DHK, but that's not quite the way it went down.
Believe it or not, there is relevancy, a continuity, between the statements of vv 2 & 3:
"Rabbi, we know that you have come from God as a teacher, because no one can perform these signs that you are doing unless God is with him." [ISV]
Jesus replied to him, "Truly, I tell you with certainty, unless a person is born from above he cannot see the kingdom of God.” [ISV]
Within Christ's response to Nicodemus lies the subtle inference, 'Thou art not far from the kingdom of God'. I'll paraphrase:
“That which enables one to truly perceive that I have come from God also enables a person to see the kingdom of God”.
“We know that you have come from God”; evidently there was a group that accompanied Nicodemus, and he spoke for the group (as Christ did also v 11).
And you hold that against him? Even His disciples were confused about a lot of things.
Again, believe it or not, there is relevancy, a continuity, between the statements of vv 4 & 5-6. Christ is correcting Nicodemus's notion that this was a new or second birth. This 'birth from above' had absolutely nothing to do with the material realm of the flesh, it was a supernatural birth of the Spirit:
“Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God! That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
It was not a command, it was a statement of fact:
"Truly, I tell you with certainty, unless a person is born from above he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
And this is a big deal why? Does this somehow imply that Nicodemus's works were evil, that he hated the light, and would not come to the light?
See my prior post. It should be rendered 'from above'.
Egad, how Pharisaical can you get? Your judgment is harsh. Reminds me of, “this multitude that knoweth not the law are accursed”! It's all about 'head knowledge' with you isn't it?
I assure you this was no enemy of Christ:
38 And after these things Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, asked of Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took away his body.
39 And there came also Nicodemus, he who at the first came to him by night, bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about a hundred pounds.
40 So they took the body of Jesus, and bound it in linen cloths with the spices, as the custom of the Jews is to bury. Jn 19
Last edited by a moderator:
he did not as of yet had the understanding/revelation/openning as peter did that Jesus was the Son of God, Messiah of isreal...
No doubt that after the death upon the Cross, the Lord revelaed himself as such to him bybringing clarity to the OT prophecies of messiah to come, but at time of talk with jesus, he saw him as being a teacher, perhaps even another prophet, but was in the dark on him being messiah/son of God!
Fred's Wife
Member
Wow! You just simply wiped out the awesome prophecy of Daniel and the future eternal Kingdom of God...which is FUTURE for us as it was for Daniel.
I am Futurist, pre-trib, and premil. The "rapture eschatology" was not initially created by J. N. Darby. He only EXPOUNDED on what was already written in the Scriptures.
he can't see it, as the RCC sees itself as the Kingdom of God here on the earth!