Does the Second commandment prohibit Films/paintings of Jesus?

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Why?

Because of the immoral personal character Mr. Gibson has openly exhibited.

I'm fully aware that all people have personal character flaws....with yours truly at the top the list. OTOH, I'm not planning to promote a film about Jesus Christ either.

His personal issues didn't manifest until long after the film was produced and became a box office hit.

I see Gibson as a modern-day example of the tragic hero. Like MacBeth in Shakespeare's play, Gibson displays a fatal flaw. During Act 1, Scene 7 of Macbeth, Macbeth states, "I have bought/Golden opinions from all sorts of people/Which would be worn in their newest gloss." This speech shows that Macbeth is a well-respected man. Just like Macbeth, Mel Gibson also had a good reputation in front of plenty of people from all the movies he acted and directed in. (Some movies he directed include: the Academy Award-Winning Braveheart and the successful The Passion of the Christ). This state of success only lasted for so long for both Macbeth and Mel Gibson.

Tragic flaws are what bring these tragic heros to their bad decisions they made. Macbeth admits his tragic flaw in Act 1, Scene 7, saying, "I have no spur/To prick the sides of my intent, but only/Vaulting ambition, which o'erleaps itself/ And falls on the other." His tragic flaw, vaulting ambition, this desire for power, causes him to murder King Duncan of Scotland and ironically also causes his own death while he is King. On the other hand, Mel Gibson also admits his tragic flaw, by saying, "I had really good highs but some very low lows. I found out recently I'm manic depressive." Manic depressive -- more properly called Bipolar Disorder -- is the state of having mood disorders and this causes Mel Gibson to often drink to until he is drunk. His drunken episodes caused him to lose his driving license and threaten a deputy. It eventually led him to three years on probation and one year in a self-help class, and continuing attendance at a 12-Step program.

I applaud Gibson for being forthright in explaining the seemingly inexplicable. We hold our modern-day heroes up to impossible standards, and then complain when they ultimately fail to live up to them. That doesn't excuse his behaviors while he was unknowingly suffering from Bipolar Disorder, but it also doesn't negate the wonderful work his movie Passion of the Christ was from the beginning.

 

[Iconoclast]

Mel Gibson is not the issue.....the commandment is.

 

[DHK]

DHK
There were many sabbaths spoken of.You start with the mosaic law...the sabbath was before that.

And your point? The Gentile Christian is never commanded to keep the Sabbath. Give me one Scripture in this dispensation or earlier where the Gentile Christian is commanded to keep the Sabbath.
Remember: Sabbath = Saturday or the seventh day of Creation week, the day which God rested; not the first day of the week, the day which Christ arose from the dead. You must work from that premise.

This is dispensational error.

It is not error of any kind. It is your refusal to accept biblical truth. Here it is:
Exodus 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
--There is no dispensation here. It is a sign between Jehovah, and Israel and her generations forever! That excludes you.

The one day in seven rest was first a creation ordinance...God Himself "rested".....the ten commandments are throughout time.

So he rested! Go back and read the Genesis account. There is no command to keep it holy. That command does not come into effect until Moses gives the command to Israel. Only then are they commanded to keep the Sabbath holy. The command is given only to Israel, and to no other people.

The church has answered this way...yes...all ten.

What church? Not mine! I an mot subservient to your church and odd doctrines.

You are not to take away from the word of God DHK. It is given to us and stands pointing to the future rest....

The keeping of the Sabbath Day was never given to any Gentile Christian.
You cannot find one Scripture that gives a command to that effect.

8 for if Joshua had given them rest, He would not concerning another day have spoken after these things;

9 there doth remain, then, a sabbatic rest to the people of God,

10 for he who did enter into his rest, he also rested from his works, as God from His own.

11 May we be diligent, then, to enter into that rest, that no one in the same example of the unbelief may fall,

First, Icon, You need to give an entire reference and not keep people guessing as to where you are quoting from. (8,9,10,11) is not a biblical reference to anything.
However I assume you are quoting from Hebrews 4.
The rest is speaking of Jesus Himself. Jesus is not a day. Learn that.
I entered into the rest that Jesus gives when I got saved and have remained in that rest every minute of every day ever since that day. It is a wonderful day. If you only have rest one day out of seven I pity you. Jesus is my rest; he is not a day.
He said: "Come unto me all ye that labor and you shall find REST."
That Sabbatic rest is a contrast. It has been done away. The Book of Hebrews is a book of contrast. The key word is "better". We have something "better than" the OT Sabbath; we have the actual rest in Christ.
You cannot get around this verse DHK...as well as this one...after the cross;

Matthew 28

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

28 And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,

Do you keep all the sabbaths Icon? Do you even know what they are?

It is God who defines when and how we are to worship Him.He has...6 days to labor...one day of rest.....it is a holy rest

Do you follow that pattern? The seventh day is Saturday. Is that when you worship? Is that when you go to church? Are you a Seventh Day Baptist?

8._____ The sabbath is then kept holy unto the Lord, when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering their common affairs aforehand, do not only observe an holy rest all day, from their own works, words and thoughts, about their worldly employment and recreations, but are also taken up the whole time in the public and private exercises of his worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy.
( Isaiah 58:13; Nehemiah 13:15-22; Matthew 12:1-13 )

Pure hypocrisy Icon.
I thought the Bible was your final authority in all matters if faith and doctrine.
You said: "It is God who defines when and how we are to worship."
And then in answer to your own question, you don't answer from the Bible, but from a confession. That is not sola scriptura, Icon. That is using the Confession as your authority. And it is not true.
The Sabbath is not kept. Very few Christians keep it. If you believe you should keep it, perhaps you should join the SDA. At least they are right on what the Sabbath is. Your confession is absolutely doctrinally wrong. That is why it is wrong to use confessions.

I prefer this explanation;FROM A Baptist Catechism with Commentary...by WR.DOWNING...pg 89-90

I prefer not. Your confession is wrong. The moral law does not include the Sabbath. There is nothing moral or immoral about keeping the Sabbath. Tell me how a pygmy in Africa, having never heard the gospel, would know from his own conscience that it is wrong to kill, steal, and commit adultery; but not know anything about what day is the right day to worship God.
He doesn't even know what God to worship!!! Let alone, what day to worship, the right God. It is ludicrous to say that he must worship on a certain day is part of the moral law when there is nothing moral about it.

Wrong again DHK

16 And concerning the collection that [is] for the saints, as I directed to the assemblies of Galatia, so also ye -- do ye;

2 on every first [day] of the week, let each one of you lay by him, treasuring up whatever he may have prospered, that when I may come then collections may not be made;

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's-day, and I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, saying,

11 `I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last

7 And on the first of the week, the disciples having been gathered together to break bread, Paul was discoursing to them, about to depart on the morrow, he was also continuing the discourse till midnight,

The Confession is wrong. The early church met every day in the week as they started out. Did they defile the Sabbath in doing so? When they met on the first day of the week they were not meeting on the Sabbath, for the first day of the week is not the seventh day of the week. Were they then defiling the Sabbath?
Apparently you don't know what the Sabbath is.
The confession is wrong.

There is no command in Scripture for Gentile believers to keep the Sabbath.

Learn this! The first day of the week IS NOT the Sabbath!

 

[Yeshua1]

Still fail to see how the Commandment prohibits all examples of jesus in films/tv shows/paintings, as that applies again to me to only either misrepresenting Him, or else if one bows down and sees that actor as being Him for real!

And think hebrews makes clear that the Sabbath given to isreal before coming of jesus, but as Lord of it, we now experience the true Sabbath rest found in Him as Saviour!

 

[Iconoclast]

Still fail to see how the Commandment prohibits all examples of jesus in films/tv shows/paintings, as that applies again to me to only either misrepresenting Him, or else if one bows down and sees that actor as being Him for real!

And think hebrews makes clear that the Sabbath given to isreal before coming of jesus, but as Lord of it, we now experience the true Sabbath rest found in Him as Saviour!

by Sinclair Ferguson


The anonymous author of Hebrews found different ways of describing the superiority of the Lord Jesus Christ. One of them, which forms the underlying motif of chapters 3 and 4, is that Jesus Christ gives the rest that neither Moses nor Joshua could provide. Under Moses, the people of God were disobedient and failed to enter into God’s rest (3:18). Psalm 95:11 (quoted in Hebrews 4:3) implies that Joshua could not have given the people “real rest” since “through David” God speaks about the rest he will give on another day (Heb. 4:7). This in turn implies that “There remains a sabbath rest for the people of God” (Heb. 4:9).

In speaking of this rest (3:18; 4:1, 3–6, 8) the author consistently used the same word for “rest” (katapausis). Suddenly, in speaking about the “rest” that remains for the people of God, he uses a different word (sabbatismos, used only here in the NT) meaning specifically a Sabbath rest. In the context of his teaching, this refers fundamentally to the “Sabbath rest” which is found in Christ (“Come … I will give you rest,” Matt. 11:28–30). Thus we are to “strive to enter that rest” (4:11).

here is more;

Considering this, what difference did the coming of Jesus make to the Sabbath day? In Christ crucified and risen, we find eternal rest (Matt. 11:28–30), and we are restored to communion with God (Matt. 11:25–30). The lost treasures of the Sabbath are restored. We rest in Christ from our labor of self-sufficiency, and we have access to the Father (Eph. 2:18). As we meet with Him, He shows us Himself, His ways, His world, His purposes, His glory. And whatever was temporary about the Mosaic Sabbath must be left behind as the reality of the intimate communion of the Adamic Sabbath is again experienced in our worship of the risen Savior on the first day of the week — the Lord’s Day.

But we have not yet reached the goal. We still struggle to rest from our labors; we still must “strive to enter that rest” (Heb. 4:11). Consequently the weekly nature of the Sabbath continues as a reminder that we are not yet home with the Father. And since this rest is ours only through union with Christ in His death and resurrection, our struggles to refuse the old life and enjoy the new continue.
But one may ask: “How does this impact my Sundays as a Christian?” This view of the Sabbath should help us regulate our weeks. Sunday is “Father’s Day,” and we have an appointment to meet Him. The child who asks “How short can the meeting be? ” has a dysfunctional relationship problem — not an intellectual, theological problem — something is amiss in his fellowship with God.

This view of the Sabbath helps us deal with the question “Is it ok to do … on Sunday? — because I don’t have any time to do it in the rest of the week?” If this is our question, the problem is not how we use Sunday, it is how we are misusing the rest of the week.

This view of the Lord’s Day helps us see the day as a foretaste of heaven. And it teaches us that if the worship, fellowship, ministry, and outreach of our churches do not give expression to that then something is seriously amiss.

Hebrews teaches us that eternal glory is a Sabbath rest. Every day, all day, will be “Father’s Day”! Thus if here and now we learn the pleasures of a God-given weekly rhythm, it will no longer seem strange to us that the eternal glory can be described as a prolonged Sabbath!

 

[Yeshua1]

here is more;

The christian rests in Jesus work, as we can do nothing to get right with God apart from what he jas already done on our behalf!

Sabbath day given to Isreal, as we under grace can still observe that day unto the lord, or Sunday, or all days, as long as we are under "jesus sabbath rest!"

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

And your point?

I have asked you not to do this...but I am flexible...we will do it your way.

My point is you are trying to come off like you know what you are talking about as you put forth more error and yet speak down in condescending fashion while you show you are defective in your understanding and teaching on this...that is the point! Now I will expose your false ideas as you have requested.

The Gentile Christian is never commanded to keep the Sabbath. Give me one Scripture in this dispensation or earlier where the Gentile Christian is commanded to keep the Sabbath.

I already did...Hebrews 4:9...which you cannot sidestep- try as you may;

9 there doth remain, then, a sabbatic rest to the people of God,

the eternal rest In Christ...is in heaven...the sabbatic rest that remains is for us now.
from Sinclair Ferguson;
Under Moses, the people of God were disobedient and failed to enter into God’s rest (3:18). Psalm 95:11 (quoted in Hebrews 4:3) implies that Joshua could not have given the people “real rest” since “through David” God speaks about the rest he will give on another day (Heb. 4:7). This in turn implies that “There remains a sabbath rest for the people of God” (Heb. 4:9).

In speaking of this rest (3:18; 4:1, 3–6, 8) the author consistently used the same word for “rest” (katapausis). Suddenly, in speaking about the “rest” that remains for the people of God, he uses a different word (sabbatismos, used only here in the NT) meaning specifically a Sabbath rest. In the context of his teaching, this refers fundamentally to the “Sabbath rest” which is found in Christ (“Come … I will give you rest,” Matt. 11:28–30). Thus we are to “strive to enter that rest” (4:11).

Remember: Sabbath = Saturday

This shows you have no idea what you are talking about,and yet you chide me to learn about it.......Sabbath means rest....not saturday

or the seventh day of Creation week, the day which God rested; not the first day of the week, the day which Christ arose from the dead. You must work from that premise.

I do not have to work from your false premise as you as has happened many times before are quite mistaken.

We are not remembering creation rest now...but the resurrection .

It is not error of any kind. It is your refusal to accept biblical truth

.

The fact is it is you who resist scripture here.

Here it is:
Exodus 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed

.

you post this as if it is the only verse to consider...you are wrong again.

--There is no dispensation here. It is a sign between Jehovah, and Israel and her generations forever! That excludes you.

In you false theology it might..in reality .....you are wrong once again.

So he rested! Go back and read the Genesis account. There is no command to keep it holy. That command does not come into effect until Moses gives the command to Israel. Only then are they commanded to keep the Sabbath holy. The command is given only to Israel, and to no other people.

More dispensational ERROR.

What church? Not mine! I an mot subservient to your church and odd doctrines

.

Biblical truth is not odd doctrines.You would not be a member in the church I attend with your antinomian tendencies.

The keeping of the Sabbath Day was never given to any Gentile Christian.
You cannot find one Scripture that gives a command to that effect.

I gave the verses you deny them...that is between you and God.

First, Icon, You need to give an entire reference and not keep people guessing as to where you are quoting from. (8,9,10,11) is not a biblical reference to anything.
However I assume you are quoting from Hebrews 4.

Is there any other verse like this one that would confuse you? You claim thousands of books in your library and yet struggle with this, and look to speak down to me as if you understand the issue.,

The rest is speaking of Jesus Himself. Jesus is not a day. Learn that.

While Jesus is our eternal rest....into the eternal state...God has still commanded one day in seven rest here and now...if you understood the article written by Sinclair Ferguson you would get it.

I entered into the rest that Jesus gives when I got saved and have remained in that rest every minute of every day ever since that day. It is a wonderful day. If you only have rest one day out of seven I pity you. Jesus is my rest; he is not a day

.


Your smug comment here will not mask your disobedience to the command..again that is between you and God.

That Sabbatic rest is a contrast. It has been done away.

You say that....the bible says this;

The mosaic ceremonial laws have been fulfilled..and yet we are told;

9 there doth remain, then, a sabbatic rest to the people of God

Do you keep all the sabbaths Icon? Do you even know what they are?

You cannot follow the teaching to answer in this foolish way.

Do you follow that pattern? The seventh day is Saturday. Is that when you worship? Is that when you go to church? Are you a Seventh Day Baptist?

My other post made it clear..Your personal attacks just show your weak case.
where do I say anything about Saturday? you are avoiding the scriptures.

Pure hypocrisy Icon.

attacking me with this foolishness does not change the teaching or your disobedience.

I thought the Bible was your final authority in all matters if faith and doctrine

.

it is ..here again you seek to undermine me personally with more nonsense which is your M.O.

You said: "It is God who defines when and how we are to worship."
And then in answer to your own question, you don't answer from the Bible, but from a confession. That is not sola scriptura, Icon. That is using the Confession as your authority. And it is not true.

If you notice....both the confession and catechism are loaded with scripture..so this is willful ignorance on your part....pathetic:thumbsup:

The Sabbath is not kept. Very few Christians keep it.

The mosaic Sabbath is not kept....the Nt Lord's Day is kept by multitudes of Christians...in fact they call the Sabbath a delight:wavey:

If you believe you should keep it, perhaps you should join the SDA. At least they are right on what the Sabbath is. Your confession is absolutely doctrinally wrong. That is why it is wrong to use confessions.

Now you want to say I am sda??? lol..you should be ashamed of yourself.
You have never,and in fact cannot answer the confession or the catechism...not even close...so you now try and denigrate all that understand the truth.

I prefer not. Your confession is wrong.

because you fail to understand the teaching does not make it wrong...it just means you cannot understand it.

The moral law does not include the Sabbath.

Everyone in the believing church knows that the ten commandments are the moral law...to make this statement...is quite foolish and yet it reveals something about your belief system that has you say such a thing.

The Confession is wrong.

To you it is....

Apparently you don't know what the Sabbath is.
The confession is wrong.

There is no command in Scripture for Gentile believers to keep the Sabbath.

Learn this! The first day of the week IS NOT the Sabbath!

[/QUOTE]
For someone who said"sabbath equals Saturday"...I do not need to answer this.

 

[DHK]

For someone who said"sabbath equals Saturday"...I do not need to answer this.

Yes you do.
At least you must answer to the above: the Sabbath = Saturday and nowhere in Scripture from the dawn of creation has that ever been changed. Even if Moody preached it was Sunday, do you believe that Moody had the right to change the Bible? Did he write his own? Do you have a copy? When and where was the Sabbath changed from Saturday to Sunday?
Chapter and verse please.

Now exegete these Scriptures please:
Acts 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:
2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
--Paul went into the synagogue, as his custom was. And for three "sabbath" days he reasoned with them out of the Scriptures.
Which day was the sabbath here? Was it a Sunday or a Saturday?

Acts 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
--From Thessalonica he went to Berea. Where did he go? He went to the synagogue of the Jews. What did he do? Look at verse 11:

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
--He preached the Word. Verse 12 says many believed. He preached on the Sabbath.

Acts 17:17 Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.

Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
--It says here that it is the "first day of the week. There is no mention of the synagogue here; neither is there any mention of the word "sabbath" here.
What day of the week is it?

1 Corinthians 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
--The first day of the week?
Which day of the week is it? Saturday or Sunday?
Is it the Sabbath day? It doesn't say it is. Why would it be?

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes you do.
At least you must answer to the above: the Sabbath = Saturday and nowhere in Scripture from the dawn of creation has that ever been changed. Even if Moody preached it was Sunday, do you believe that Moody had the right to change the Bible? Did he write his own? Do you have a copy? When and where was the Sabbath changed from Saturday to Sunday?
Chapter and verse please.

Now exegete these Scriptures please:
Acts 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:
2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
--Paul went into the synagogue, as his custom was. And for three "sabbath" days he reasoned with them out of the Scriptures.
Which day was the sabbath here? Was it a Sunday or a Saturday?

Acts 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
--From Thessalonica he went to Berea. Where did he go? He went to the synagogue of the Jews. What did he do? Look at verse 11:

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
--He preached the Word. Verse 12 says many believed. He preached on the Sabbath.

Acts 17:17 Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.

Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
--It says here that it is the "first day of the week. There is no mention of the synagogue here; neither is there any mention of the word "sabbath" here.
What day of the week is it?

1 Corinthians 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
--The first day of the week?
Which day of the week is it? Saturday or Sunday?
Is it the Sabbath day? It doesn't say it is. Why would it be?

sabbath day was given to isreal, while the Church worshipped on the Lord day!

sabbath given to isrea; forever, not to the church!