Does the will of man remain "free" after salvation?

[slave 4 Christ]

There are some arminians who believe in the doctrine of conditional security.

This basically states that the condition of salvation is faith, therefore the condition of security is continued faith.

BTW It certainly seems this would be the logical conclusion of free moral agency.

But these arminians also teach that a saved man, because he is a free moral agent, can make shipwreck of his faith, and in so doing forfeit his salvation.

My question is simple. If God so honors man's free moral agency(free will) before and until salvation, then is He not equally bound to honor man's choices after salvation?

If no, then does God somehow over rule this free will?

If yes, then is it not reasonable that man with his free will could walk away from God?

Let me add, The above arminians state we are saved by Grace through faith.
Therefore no faith no Grace. These folks don't play when they say "free will".

 

[psalms109:31]

1 John 2:
Warnings Against Denying the Son
18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.[Some manuscripts and you know all things] 21 I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22 Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

24 As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is what he promised us—eternal life.

26 I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

 

[zrs6v4]

double post...

 

[zrs6v4]

There are some arminians who believe in the doctrine of conditional security.

This basically states that the condition of salvation is faith, therefore the condition of security is continued faith.

BTW It certainly seems this would be the logical conclusion of free moral agency.

But these arminians also teach that a saved man, because he is a free moral agent, can make shipwreck of his faith, and in so doing forfeit his salvation.

My question is simple. If God so honors man's free moral agency(free will) before and until salvation, then is He not equally bound to honor man's choices after salvation?

If no, then does God somehow over rule this free will?

If yes, then is it not reasonable that man with his free will could walk away from God?

Let me add, The above arminians state we are saved by Grace through faith.
Therefore no faith no Grace. These folks don't play when they say "free will".

I've posted this before and had no responses. I am interested to hear how a non-cal will defend their view of free will and eternal security.

I truly believe that most issues with Cal debates are from unclear perspectives of how we understand God's sovereign work. I often try to use the example you are showing to describe a Cal view of the effectual call. In my mind eternal security is because of election. We come to understand that we are in the sovereign hands of God and rest there. He brought us to Him to be justified the very same way He brings us to the end to be glorified. We were eternally secure before birth in a strange sense because God created us to be His at His exact timing.

 

[Luke2427]

There are some arminians who believe in the doctrine of conditional security.

This basically states that the condition of salvation is faith, therefore the condition of security is continued faith.

BTW It certainly seems this would be the logical conclusion of free moral agency.

But these arminians also teach that a saved man, because he is a free moral agent, can make shipwreck of his faith, and in so doing forfeit his salvation.

My question is simple. If God so honors man's free moral agency(free will) before and until salvation, then is He not equally bound to honor man's choices after salvation?

If no, then does God somehow over rule this free will?

If yes, then is it not reasonable that man with his free will could walk away from God?

Let me add, The above arminians state we are saved by Grace through faith.
Therefore no faith no Grace. These folks don't play when they say "free will".

I knew a long time before I became reformed that these whiskey baptists (just take a fifth) were terribly inconsistent.

You cannot have a consistent soteriology that rejects the first four points of Calvinism and embraces the essence of the fifth.

It's like trying to have dry liquid water- it doesn't make sense.

At least these Arminians of the free will and general baptist and Methodist stripe have a consistent theology.

Good work here S4C!

I do not expect you will have many takers on this challenge.

They cannot answer it.

 

[Luke2427]

Therefore no faith no Grace. These folks don't play when they say "free will".

I like this. :laugh: And I can testify to it's verity. I was a Free Will Baptist from the time I was 14 years old to a few years ago.

They are SERIOUS about FREE WILL! It is the CORNERSTONE of their theology.

 

[quantumfaith]

Let me just say, I am often troubled by the issue of "perseverance", not because holding or not holding to it makes one as described as inconsistent, as I personally am bothered much by someone labeling me as "inconsistent". My "bother" is that I sometimes understand my Methodist brothers and sisters in their conviction that one can "walk away" from the faith. I "choose" not to believe this , probably as much about comfort as security as anything theological in mind.

And yes, man's will remains "somewhat free" after salvation. Still free to sin and be disobedient to the commands of God.

 

[Winman]

There are some arminians who believe in the doctrine of conditional security.
This basically states that the condition of salvation is faith, therefore the condition of security is continued faith.
BTW It certainly seems this would be the logical conclusion of free moral agency.
But these arminians also teach that a saved man, because he is a free moral agent, can make shipwreck of his faith, and in so doing forfeit his salvation.
My question is simple. If God so honors man's free moral agency(free will) before and until salvation, then is He not equally bound to honor man's choices after salvation?
If no, then does God somehow over rule this free will?
If yes, then is it not reasonable that man with his free will could walk away from God?

First, I am not an Arminian.
Your confusion arises from falsely believeing non-Cals like myself think faith saves you. Faith does not save anyone, Jesus is who saves. And Jesus has promised to save anyone who believes on him, that is, anyone who places their dependence on him for salvation. It is a one time transaction that cannot be undone because Jesus will never go back on his word. We are often unfaithful to Jesus even after we are saved just as Peter denied Jesus after he had clearly believed earlier, or Thomas who so famously doubted. But Jesus is always faithful and will keep his promise to all that come to him. Our salvation is safe because of his faithfulness, not ours. I don't know of any Christian who has not doubted and feared he was not saved at times. This is unbelief. If our salvation depended on our constant belief without doubt, we would all be lost. Thank God, if we have truly placed our soul in Jesus's hands we are kept by his faithfulness, not our own.

 

[Luke2427]

Let me just say, I am often troubled by the issue of "perseverance", not because holding or not holding to it makes one as described as inconsistent, as I personally am bothered much by someone labeling me as "inconsistent". My "bother" is that I sometimes understand my Methodist brothers and sisters in their conviction that one can "walk away" from the faith. I "choose" not to believe this , probably as much about comfort as security as anything theological in mind.

And yes, man's will remains "somewhat free" after salvation. Still free to sin and be disobedient to the commands of God.

But not as free as it was before salvation, right?

Since before salvation they could choose Christ or reject him.

Now they have no such choice, right?

 

[Luke2427]

First, I am not an Arminian.
Your confusion arises from falsely believeing non-Cals like myself think faith saves you. Faith does not save anyone, Jesus is who saves. And Jesus has promised to save anyone who believes on him, that is, anyone who places their dependence on him for salvation. It is a one time transaction that cannot be undone because Jesus will never go back on his word. We are often unfaithful to Jesus even after we are saved just as Peter denied Jesus after he had clearly believed earlier, or Thomas who so famously doubted. But Jesus is always faithful and will keep his promise to all that come to him. Our salvation is safe because of his faithfulness, not ours. I don't know of any Christian who has not doubted and feared he was not saved at times. This is unbelief. If our salvation depended on our constant belief without doubt, we would all be lost. Thank God, if we have truly placed our soul in Jesus's hands we are kept by his faithfulness, not our own.

Follow this out to it's logical end and you ahve Charles Stanley's eternal security.

Salvation comes by one instantaneous burst of faith and faith is not required thereafter. One can renounce his faith in Christ and become a Muslim and still go to heaven.

 

[Winman]

But not as free as it was before salvation, right?

Since before salvation they could choose Christ or reject him.

Now they have no such choice, right?

This is a ridiculos question. Why would anyone who TRULY believed the gospel ever will to not be saved by him afterward?

In my entire life I have only met one person who said he believed in God when he was young, but no longer did. Now, I had to take his word for it, but it didn't make sense.

I am not talking about a mere profession of belief, but a true and genuine belief. If a person TRULY believes, then they realize they are a lost sinner on their way to hell. They also TRULY believe that their only hope is Jesus Christ the Son of God who died for their sins and rose again.

Now, I can't imagine anyone who truly believed this would ever will not to be saved unless they were suffering from a severe and real mental disorder, in which case I do not believe the Lord would hold them responsible.

No, if someone does this (of which I have only met one), the chances are they never truly believed to begin with.

 

[Luke2427]

This is a ridiculos question. Why would anyone who TRULY believed the gospel ever will to not be saved by him afterward?

In my entire life I have only met one person who said he believed in God when he was young, but no longer did. Now, I had to take his word for it, but it didn't make sense.

I am not talking about a mere profession of belief, but a true and genuine belief. If a person TRULY believes, then they realize they are a lost sinner on their way to hell. They also TRULY believe that their only hope is Jesus Christ the Son of God who died for their sins and rose again.

Now, I can't imagine anyone who truly believed this would ever will not to be saved unless they were suffering from a severe and real mental disorder, in which case I do not believe the Lord would hold them responsible.

No, if someone does this (of which I have only met one), the chances are they never truly believed to begin with.

It is not ridiculous. It is what you believe.

You either believe the grace of God overcomes the will of man in such a way that he cannot choose to go back to a life of sin or you believe that grace leaves the will just as free as it was before but that no matter what this very free will chooses God will still take them to heaven.

Those are your options. Which is it?

 

[slave 4 Christ]

original quote from quantumfaith

Thank you for the reply.

However, I have a few questions about your post.

Let me just say, I am often troubled by the issue of "perseverance", not because holding or not holding to it makes one as described as inconsistent, as I personally am bothered much by someone labeling me as "inconsistent".

1. Is it not true that "inconsistent" Christianity is a label given in both systems of soteriology?

The DoG teach perseverance, not perfection of the saints. There is a group of arminians who do teach perfection of the saints in this life.

My "bother" is that I sometimes understand my Methodist brothers and sisters in their conviction that one can "walk away" from the faith. I "choose" not to believe this , probably as much about comfort as security as anything theological in mind.

2. Is it not unwise to choose to believe the above without biblical reasons?

The reason given above for belief seems to be emotionally driven. May I say this is why many reject the Doctrine of Grace. It makes them uncomfortable.

This is why the Scriptures must explain our experience with God.
And why we absolutely must be careful not to allow our experience to explain scripture.
Let me say. I hold no intellectual superiority in the above stated area, for I interpreted the Bible in this "hermeneutic" for several years. But praise to our Glorious God, what was uncomfortable now brings me great comfort.

And yes, man's will remains "somewhat free" after salvation. Still free to sin and be disobedient to the commands of God.

3. How much sin and disobedience can the free will of man pursue and still be saved? How far can he go in sin and disobedience?

To be "somewhat free" is not free.

 

[quantumfaith]

This is a ridiculos question. Why would anyone who TRULY believed the gospel ever will to not be saved by him afterward?

In my entire life I have only met one person who said he believed in God when he was young, but no longer did. Now, I had to take his word for it, but it didn't make sense.

I am not talking about a mere profession of belief, but a true and genuine belief. If a person TRULY believes, then they realize they are a lost sinner on their way to hell. They also TRULY believe that their only hope is Jesus Christ the Son of God who died for their sins and rose again.

Now, I can't imagine anyone who truly believed this would ever will not to be saved unless they were suffering from a severe and real mental disorder, in which case I do not believe the Lord would hold them responsible.

No, if someone does this (of which I have only met one), the chances are they never truly believed to begin with.

Winman, not entirely certain if I belive this or not. I have encountered many people in life, who were at one time passionate about their relationship to God and demonstrating apparent fruit of spirit and things happen in life to make them "feel" as if God forgot their address. Immediately the arguments are formed that "they were never really saved", I just dont know. I have also seen people who have more than simply walking away from God, out right renounce anything to do with him.

Another one of those things that I will leave in the hands of the Deity.

 

[Winman]

Winman, not entirely certain if I belive this or not. I have encountered many people in life, who were at one time passionate about their relationship to God and demonstrating apparent fruit of spirit and things happen in life to make them "feel" as if God forgot their address. Immediately the arguments are formed that "they were never really saved", I just dont know. I have also seen people who have more than simply walking away from God, out right renounce anything to do with him.

Another one of those things that I will leave in the hands of the Deity.

Well, lots of folks say they believe who don't. I can't imagine anyone who would willingly choose to go to hell if they truly believed in it's existance.

 

[quantumfaith]

Thank you for the reply.

However, I have a few questions about your post.



1. Is it not true that "inconsistent" Christianity is a label given in both systems of soteriology?

The DoG teach perseverance, not perfection of the saints. There is a group of arminians who do teach perfection of the saints in this life.



2. Is it not unwise to choose to believe the above without biblical reasons?

The reason given above for belief seems to be emotionally driven. May I say this is why many reject the Doctrine of Grace. It makes them uncomfortable.

This is why the Scriptures must explain our experience with God.
And why we absolutely must be careful not to allow our experience to explain scripture.
Let me say. I hold no intellectual superiority in the above stated area, for I interpreted the Bible in this "hermeneutic" for several years. But praise to our Glorious God, what was uncomfortable now brings me great comfort.



3. How much sin and disobedience can the free will of man pursue and still be saved? How far can he go in sin and disobedience?

To be "somewhat free" is not free.

I mean you no disrespect brother, I am glad the you feel you have "seen the theological light". I am perfectly content to say what I "feel" and when I just dont "know".

But I do appreciate very much the "kinder and gentler" spirit, often lacking here in BB land.

 

[Winman]

I mean you no disrespect brother, I am glad the you feel you have "seen the theological light". I am perfectly content to say what I "feel" and when I just dont "know".

But I do appreciate very much the "kinder and gentler" spirit, often lacking here in BB land.

I have never heard of this "perfection of the saints".

I believe in PRESERVATION OF THE SAINTS. That is, we are kept or preserved by Jesus, not by any works we do.

We don't do works to get saved, why would we need to do works to stay saved?

 

[Cypress]

Slave, do you feel that the truly elect can lose their salvation? It is the same for the non cals that believe in eternal security.They believe if one is truly saved they won't lose their salvation. Both sides have to deal with scripture that seems to warn or indicate that salvation can be lost.

 

[quantumfaith]

I have never heard of this "perfection of the saints".

I believe in PRESERVATION OF THE SAINTS. That is, we are kept or preserved by Jesus, not by any works we do.

We don't do works to get saved, why would we need to do works to stay saved?

Winman, not sure I made in mention of "perfection" of the saints, if I did, it was a typo.

 

[slave 4 Christ]

Originally Posted by Winman

First, I am not an Arminian.

Then why did you feel a need to reply.

Your confusion arises from falsely believeing non-Cals like myself think faith saves you. Faith does not save anyone, Jesus is who saves. And Jesus has promised to save anyone who believes on him, that is, anyone who places their dependence on him for salvation.

I agree with everything in the above statement.
Except the part about me being confused. :smilewinkgrin:
BTW I don't think you think faith saves.
It is when one has ability to believe that we disagree.

It is a one time transaction that cannot be undone because Jesus will never go back on his word.

You don't believe faith saves, but you do attribute value to your ability of faith.

You describe salvation as a transaction.

A transaction is defined as an agreement, communication, or movement carried out between separate entities or objects, often involving the exchange of items of value, such as information, goods, services, and money. (from Wikipedia)

You say I have something of intrinsic value. God asks for my valuable faith, and grace results.

The above was the problem Paul was dealing with in Ephesians 2:8,9.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

What is the gift of God? What is not your own doing?

Answer.....being saved by Grace through faith.

Why did God save this way? "that no one may boast"

It is the value placed on free will that is the problem.

It is a one time transaction that cannot be undone because Jesus will never go back on his word.

You said, "cannot be undone"
If what you say in this quote is true. Then your free will must be bound at salvation. If this happens, then Jesus would go back on His word in regard to all the bible verses that teach free will.

We are often unfaithful to Jesus even after we are saved just as Peter denied Jesus after he had clearly believed earlier, or Thomas who so famously doubted. But Jesus is always faithful and will keep his promise to all that come to him. Our salvation is safe because of his faithfulness, not ours. I don't know of any Christian who has not doubted and feared he was not saved at times. This is unbelief. If our salvation depended on our constant belief without doubt, we would all be lost. Thank God, if we have truly placed our soul in Jesus's hands we are kept by his faithfulness, not our own.

We are indeed kept by His faithfulness. And our faith in Christ is the proof of HIS faithfulness. He is faithful from start to finish. He gives us all we need for life in HIM. Hebrews 12:2 gives us this truth.

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith.....