Does the will of man remain "free" after salvation?

[slave 4 Christ]

Slave, do you feel that the truly elect can lose their salvation? It is the same for the non cals that believe in eternal security.They believe if one is truly saved they won't lose their salvation. Both sides have to deal with scripture that seems to warn or indicate that salvation can be lost.

Does not matter what I feel about security.
But, I am absolutely convinced the Bible teaches the truly elect have eternal life and forever will have eternal life.

(Philippians 1:6) 6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

(Romans 8:29,30) 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

The thread is about what happens to "free will" after salvation.

 

[quantumfaith]

Precisely Slave4christ

1. It is by God's grace alone that we are saved, even that salvation exists as a possibility. To reduce all the way back it is by God's grace that there is even existence.

It is because of this grace, that we CANNOT earn our salvation, we cannot do anything of merit to win this salvation.

2. It is appropriated by God's grace through our faith.

 

[zrs6v4]

I have never heard of this "perfection of the saints".

I believe in PRESERVATION OF THE SAINTS. That is, we are kept or preserved by Jesus, not by any works we do.

We don't do works to get saved, why would we need to do works to stay saved?

Winman, Im not sure you are connecting all the implications of your words. I think the very nature of eternal security has a lot to do with God's sovereignty in our salvation. I agree with you that preservation is a great word. I have heard R.C Sproul say that he does not like you use perseverance of the saints, but likes to call it preservation because it is God who is working in us to bring us to completion. When God preserves us we persevere because He is the One who is holding us. How? How can He override our will, isnt it free?

Now, one must logically ask, how can God preserve all of His saints? It is true that Jesus' payment made on the cross was once and for all. This means that we are forgiven past present and future of all sins when we turn to Christ by faith. So yes, we are immediately preserved when we are first saved. Another thing to consider is that we need to endure to the end to be saved or better put, once we start believing (as you said) we must continue to believe. If we stop believing, our faith proves to be vain, and thus we were never truly saved (1 John 2, and consider Matt. 24:13).

Peter said that we must make our calling and election sure (2 Peter 1:10). It is God who brings calls and elects us and when this is the case we are secure. Our wills submitted to God because of His work within us, and this is the case until we die. We cannot choose to deny Christ once we are saved. In a sense we can, but God works in such as way that none of us will. This is His effectual work of grace within us.

To supplement some passages given, I will add John 6:39, "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that all He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day."

Notice that God's election (those the Father gives the Son) consists of only those who believe (see also John 10:26). Those very people who come to God willingly to believe are those who God has elected and given to the Son to save. Those who the Son saves He will raise on the last day. In other words God sovereignly saves and preserves His sheep. This is why eternal security and election go hand in hand. What more security can we have that to come to understand that it is God who brought us to Himself and it is God who will faithfully bring us to the end?

Therefore as Peter said, we should make our calling and election sure. Our confidence is in God not something we did...

 

[zrs6v4]

Quantum,

I don't mean this to be rude, but I have noticed in your posts that you try to remain neutral many times. It seems as though you feel that it is more humble to not pick a side or try to be somewhere in between. I respect this if I am correct in my judgment. I know you are not neutral about many essential beliefs, but why do you seem to avoid concluding on certain theological truths?

I hope it isn't because of pride you see in viewpoints? or the so called wars and divisions on the board?

I think it is healthy to be humble and try to conclude on some of these issues and use our minds logically and open to the possibilities of what God does and can do. I don't think intellectually holding our arms up in the air on every topic is the best way to try to know God and His ways. I think we can know Him, although our humility ought to warn us of areas that we must simply say "I don't know."

I ask out of curiosity, not so much to be ignorant
thanks

 

[Winman]

I don't think you realize what you are saying. If you must persevere, you believe the exact same thing as Arminians. You cannot possibly know if you are saved until the day you die, because you cannot know if you will persevere.

In John 6:37 Jesus said, "and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

He didn't say you have to keep coming over and over and if you fail one day he will reject you. No, if you sincerely come to Jesus he saves you right then and there. He gives you everlasting life and you will never perish. You have passed from death to life, you are born again. You can't become unborn.

To believe simply means to rest on this promise. You come to Jesus and leave your soul in his hands. Believeing is not hanging on, it is letting go.

I have often compared it to being in a fire in a tall building with firemen below calling for you to jump, promising to catch you in their net. Well, that's what believeing means, it means to let go and jump, trusting your life into their hands.

All we have to do is jump, and leave the rest to Jesus.

 

[quantumfaith]

Quantum,

I don't mean this to be rude, but I have noticed in your posts that you try to remain neutral many times. It seems as though you feel that it is more humble to not pick a side or try to be somewhere in between. I respect this if I am correct in my judgment. I know you are not neutral about many essential beliefs, but why do you seem to avoid concluding on certain theological truths?

I hope it isn't because of pride you see in viewpoints? or the so called wars and divisions on the board?

I think it is healthy to be humble and try to conclude on some of these issues and use our minds logically and open to the possibilities of what God does and can do. I don't think intellectually holding our arms up in the air on every topic is the best way to try to know God and His ways. I think we can know Him, although our humility ought to warn us of areas that we must simply say "I don't know."

I ask out of curiosity, not so much to be ignorant
thanks

I, and you know nothing of me, save what you see here, am often intellectually neutral, particularly when I do not think I have "resolved" something well enough.

When I say "I dont know" I almost always have a particular personal conviction about the issue but am uncertain about being able to defend it eloquently. But yes there are many things I "do not know", in reality all these things we claim to know as believers are held by faith, are they not?

I have often debated with atheists, of all flavors, who quite often ask piercing questions about my theistic beliefs and convictions.

Not quite sure if I understand the "purpose" of your post. Are you "yanking my chain", I certainly hope not, will assume not.

Over the course of my 48 years, 36 of those being a believer in Christ, I have seldom had any "serious" doubts, most of those early on as a very young believer.

Also, I am a professional educator, part of my profession requires me to teach students to ask "why", "how do I know", "how does this work" etc. That is probably a large factor in my "online personality".

I am not trying to "appear" to be Mr. Humble or anything other than what I am
"just a beggar trying to help another beggar find a crumb."

I do have a dislike when an a attitude of " I know it all, just ask me" or "its my way of the highway" drips off of the page of a post.

Hope this helps. If you have any further questions or seek any further clarifications, please do ask.

 

[Cypress]

Does not matter what I feel about security.
But, I am absolutely convinced the Bible teaches the truly elect have eternal life and forever will have eternal life.

(Philippians 1:6) 6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

(Romans 8:29,30) 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

The thread is about what happens to "free will" after salvation.

Alrighty then, to put it more directly.........The freewillers if you will, now place their freewill in God's care. A case of Thy will not my will. I will be happy to provide the scriptures I mentioned if you like but I am certain you are aware of them. So not to go on feelings, I am certain a tension exists in scripture regarding eternal security.:love2:

 

[slave 4 Christ]

Alrighty then, to put it more directly.........The freewillers if you will, now place their freewill in God's care. A case of Thy will not my will. I will be happy to provide the scriptures I mentioned if you like but I am certain you are aware of them. So not to go on feelings, I am certain a tension exists in scripture regarding eternal security.:love2:

Cypress,

I'm afraid you have me at a loss. I don't understand your point.

Please be more specific. Thanks

 

[Robert Snow]

Slave, do you feel that the truly elect can lose their salvation? It is the same for the non cals that believe in eternal security.They believe if one is truly saved they won't lose their salvation. Both sides have to deal with scripture that seems to warn or indicate that salvation can be lost.

Exactly! We are born into God's family; as soon as someone tells me how someone can be unborn, I will consider the concept of one losing their salvation.

Besides, the scripture says that, once we believe, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Also, the bible teaches that the ones who are born of God overcome sin. This doesn't mean there could not be dry spots in the journey, but all Christians will overcome in the end! Praise God!

1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

 

[jbh28]

I don't think you realize what you are saying. If you must persevere, you believe the exact same thing as Arminians. You cannot possibly know if you are saved until the day you die, because you cannot know if you will persevere.

In John 6:37 Jesus said, "and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

And we persevere, not because of us, but because of God. We can know that we will persevere because God has promised to keep us.

 

[Cypress]

Cypress,

I'm afraid you have me at a loss. I don't understand your point.

Please be more specific. Thanks

I will try by going back to the beginning....if this only muddies the water, let me know and I will try again....here goes.

Originally Posted by Cypress
"Slave, do you feel that the truly elect can lose their salvation? It is the same for the non cals that believe in eternal security.They believe if one is truly saved they won't lose their salvation. Both sides have to deal with scripture that seems to warn or indicate that salvation can be lost."

To which you replied......
"Does not matter what I feel about security.
But, I am absolutely convinced the Bible teaches the truly elect have eternal life and forever will have eternal life.

(Philippians 1:6) 6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

(Romans 8:29,30) 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

The thread is about what happens to "free will" after salvation."

To which I further replied
"Alrighty then, to put it more directly.........The freewillers if you will, now place their freewill in God's care. A case of Thy will not my will."
This was to answer what happens to free will after salvation.

And this was meant to address the certainty you mentioned. ( I am glad you are certain by the way.) You seemed to take offense at the way I asked the question about how you felt.

" I will be happy to provide the scriptures I mentioned if you like but I am certain you are aware of them. So not to go on feelings, I am certain a tension exists in scripture regarding eternal security."

 

[zrs6v4]

I, and you know nothing of me, save what you see here, am often intellectually neutral, particularly when I do not think I have "resolved" something well enough.

When I say "I dont know" I almost always have a particular personal conviction about the issue but am uncertain about being able to defend it eloquently. But yes there are many things I "do not know", in reality all these things we claim to know as believers are held by faith, are they not?

I have often debated with atheists, of all flavors, who quite often ask piercing questions about my theistic beliefs and convictions.

Not quite sure if I understand the "purpose" of your post. Are you "yanking my chain", I certainly hope not, will assume not.

Over the course of my 48 years, 36 of those being a believer in Christ, I have seldom had any "serious" doubts, most of those early on as a very young believer.

Also, I am a professional educator, part of my profession requires me to teach students to ask "why", "how do I know", "how does this work" etc. That is probably a large factor in my "online personality".

I am not trying to "appear" to be Mr. Humble or anything other than what I am
"just a beggar trying to help another beggar find a crumb."

I do have a dislike when an a attitude of " I know it all, just ask me" or "its my way of the highway" drips off of the page of a post.

Hope this helps. If you have any further questions or seek any further clarifications, please do ask.

I think much of our issues on the forum with our conversations are misunderstood based on our lack of personal relationship. For example I asked the question because I didn't know if you were 80 or 15 (that isn't to be an insult BTW). I also didn't know you were a teacher or how you deal with worldview questions. I think doubts are good. When we weren't saved, we doubted we were and because of our doubts or questions we were able to seek assurance. I think I agree with your approach and I agree with your view of humility. As I said in the PM you sent me, I just sensed a little neutrality in statements on issues I find that we don't have to say "I have no idea". Thanks for clarifying, I don't want to jack this thread so we can continue through private message if necessary. I agree that even in our theologies we are confident in we can learn much deeper. I know the Gospel but I grow in understanding of it daily, I know God but I get to know Him better daily. There are also things we don't and can't know: Christ's return date. There simply should be humility in confidence on things God's Word teaches.

 

[zrs6v4]

I don't think you realize what you are saying. If you must persevere, you believe the exact same thing as Arminians. You cannot possibly know if you are saved until the day you die, because you cannot know if you will persevere.

In John 6:37 Jesus said, "and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

He didn't say you have to keep coming over and over and if you fail one day he will reject you. No, if you sincerely come to Jesus he saves you right then and there. He gives you everlasting life and you will never perish. You have passed from death to life, you are born again. You can't become unborn.

To believe simply means to rest on this promise. You come to Jesus and leave your soul in his hands. Believeing is not hanging on, it is letting go.

I have often compared it to being in a fire in a tall building with firemen below calling for you to jump, promising to catch you in their net. Well, that's what believeing means, it means to let go and jump, trusting your life into their hands.

All we have to do is jump, and leave the rest to Jesus.

I don't want to be in fight mode, so sure it is possible that I am wrong . I didn't mean my initial comment to be an insult, so if you were offended, don't take it personally. Just try to think what Im saying through and I will do the same to your posts. I know the impossibility of my request from both sides BTW.

I don't believe in works salvation or that part of our earning salvation is by our perseverance. What I believe is that all the saints persevere and do not stop repenting and believing. In John's Gospel His usage for "believe" in the Greek is actual describing a continuation of belief, yet we are justified when we have saving faith. We begin believing, are saved, and then continue believing as all saints do. We all persevere to the end as God continues to bring us back to Himself by His actions.

Yes, we can know if we are saved. We know we will persevere because we trust in Christ and He will not let us go. Our confidence is not in our persevering efforts but in the sovereign God who saves us and promised to keep us. Trusting in the Lord has nothing to do with our actions or an event in our lives, it is what it means- a trust and reliance fully upon Him for everything.

As for the John 6:35-65 passage. I would love to attempt to work through that exegetically if you'd like to. If you do you will find that God chooses, we fully and willingly believe, and will be kept by God until we are raised to Him at the end. 99% of the people who were there when Jesus said those things left but the 11 who He chose. Very good passage.

You simply misunderstood my points, majorly. I never said Christ would reject us if we didn't persevere. I said we persevere because of God's power working within us. You are speaking of the heart of Christ who doesn't reject those who come to Him, and your right that He doesn't. Christ definitely offers forgiveness to all who come to Him. He doesn't give someone salvation and then take it away when they fail or we all would go to hell for certain. The assurance is that God draws us to Himself by working in our hearts, saves us in a very relational and impactive way, and always keeps us. The very nature of salvation is grounded in the work of God's saving grace. We can declare we are saved and know God confidently by this saving grace that He has bestowed on us.

In my mind if you hold in any kind of free will in salvation outside of God's sovereignty then your assurance would no longer rest on what God is going to do in keeping you but in your own works to keep yourself. We are responsible for believing God, but we rest in Him for keeping us in that heart of believing at the very same time.

Again, I am not arguing the instantaneous aspect of justification by faith. I am just showing how before and after that point God works effectually in our lives to His purposes and pleasure. Fortunately for those who are saved, His pleasure is for us to take pleasure in Him and love Him for who He is. As a result of that heart He creates within us, we persevere. Be careful in how you judge the way God works effectually because He works is very beautiful ways (use your imagination on how He might possible do this). It isn't as though He presses a button or does some sort of non personal work, He is very intimate and bends our hearts through the work of the Spirit many if not all the time.

 

[slave 4 Christ]

Quote from Cypress

To which I further replied
"Alrighty then, to put it more directly.........The freewillers if you will, now place their freewill in God's care. A case of Thy will not my will."
This was to answer what happens to free will after salvation.

If it is true that free will is needed to place faith, then how can you continue to believe?

If you place your free will in God's care, are you suggesting that God now believes for you?

Also this view does not fit with the idea that love is God's highest motivation.
If free will is needed to prove to God that man loves Him, how will a man do so if his free will is not under his control?

And this was meant to address the certainty you mentioned. ( I am glad you are certain by the way.) You seemed to take offense at the way I asked the question about how you felt.

No offense taken.

 

[zrs6v4]

Winman,

I also wanted to clarify one of your confusions to the post you responded to.

I said, "If we stop believing, our faith proves to be vain, and thus we were never truly saved (1 John 2, and consider Matt. 24:13)."


Keep in mind what I said in my previous post. I did not mean that we have to perfectly believe until we die. Again we all fail. What I meant was along the lines of those who reject the faith or stop turning (repenting) to Christ in their lives as a whole, not so much our daily struggle to believe.

 

[Luke2427]

Alrighty then, to put it more directly.........The freewillers if you will, now place their freewill in God's care. A case of Thy will not my will. I will be happy to provide the scriptures I mentioned if you like but I am certain you are aware of them. So not to go on feelings, I am certain a tension exists in scripture regarding eternal security.:love2:

Once they put it in God's hands, though, they don't actually possess it so that they can choose to opt out, right?

This is the problem.

It is inconsistent to say that God so cherishes free will of sinners that he will allow billions of them to utilize it to go to hell thereby, and then say that all of the sudden, that will that God so cherishes which chooses him is not precious any more now that the sinner is a saint.

It does not make sense.

God cherishes the choice of Him in the breast of sinners; but cares nothing for the choice of Him in the heart of saints??

They give him their wills and he TAKES it? Why? Why is the will to choose Him not MORE precious in one of his OWN?

It is so precious that he is willing to let billions and billions tumble forever in the lake of fire rather than take it from them to save them, and SUDDENLY it is not very precious at all- and at the very time that it should seem to be most precious being it belongs to a child of His.

He will not take it to keep billions out of hell but he will take it to keep his own saved?

 

[MB]

There are some arminians who believe in the doctrine of conditional security.

This basically states that the condition of salvation is faith, therefore the condition of security is continued faith.

BTW It certainly seems this would be the logical conclusion of free moral agency.

But these arminians also teach that a saved man, because he is a free moral agent, can make shipwreck of his faith, and in so doing forfeit his salvation.

Not all people who believe in free will also believe they can loose there Salvation. Like most Calvinist you lump everyone who isn't a Calvinist as Arminian. Mostly because you can't understand there is anyone else in existance.

My question is simple. If God so honors man's free moral agency(free will) before and until salvation, then is He not equally bound to honor man's choices after salvation?

If no, then does God somehow over rule this free will?

You see glory comes to God because of man's willingness to follow Him. It's called submission or surrender. Because we do submit to His Righteousness God receives all the glory.( Rom 10:1-4 ) Simply because He has won us with out force. Does God over rule our freewill? If we endure the chastening yes. We are His after all, He did purchase us with His blood. He chastens those who are His. With no Chastening, when we do stray, then we weren't His to begin with. God chastens His children. Rather like being a Marine. Once a Marine always a Marine.
Jonah had freewill He choose not to preach, but God convinced Him other wise. If Jonah didn't have freewill he could never have chosen not to do what God had told him to do. Jonah was already God's by submission. If you didn't have freewill you wouldn't be able to sin. Although like everyone else you still sin.

If yes, then is it not reasonable that man with his free will could walk away from God?

Let me add, The above arminians state we are saved by Grace through faith.
Therefore no faith no Grace. These folks don't play when they say "free will".

Since I'm one who has used that phrase you're right here I don't play around I get right down to the truth. Actually I wonder where you get the idea Grace comes first.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

It is faith that is the first gift then comes grace. There isn't any way you can say this differently because we are saved by grace and that grace always comes through faith. It's clear as a bell and you can see it even though you might deny it.

No faith No grace. How simple compared to regeneration so you can believe which completely non biblical.
MB

 

[Cypress]

If it is true that free will is needed to place faith, then how can you continue to believe?

If you place your free will in God's care, are you suggesting that God now believes for you?

Also this view does not fit with the idea that love is God's highest motivation.
If free will is needed to prove to God that man loves Him, how will a man do so if his free will is not under his control?



No offense taken.

Reply: Not sure the condition is true. I see it like this; since free will is what we have, it is part and parcel of having faith.It is a surrender of independence in the use of the free will and the believer is now enabled to use it in a manner pleasing to God through the indwelling of the Holy
Spirit as part of the body of Christ.

Reply:No

Reply: Free will was given to man by God in love.....giving it back is mans response to God's love. It fits rather well imo in this light.

Glad we are on good terms brother:thumbs:

 

[Cypress]

Once they put it in God's hands, though, they don't actually possess it so that they can choose to opt out, right?

This is the problem.

It is inconsistent to say that God so cherishes free will of sinners that he will allow billions of them to utilize it to go to hell thereby, and then say that all of the sudden, that will that God so cherishes which chooses him is not precious any more now that the sinner is a saint.

It does not make sense.

God cherishes the choice of Him in the breast of sinners; but cares nothing for the choice of Him in the heart of saints??

They give him their wills and he TAKES it? Why? Why is the will to choose Him not MORE precious in one of his OWN?

It is so precious that he is willing to let billions and billions tumble forever in the lake of fire rather than take it from them to save them, and SUDDENLY it is not very precious at all- and at the very time that it should seem to be most precious being it belongs to a child of His.

He will not take it to keep billions out of hell but he will take it to keep his own saved?

Luke, sorry, but I am not following you, maybe my response to Slave will let you see my position a bit more clearly.:love2:

 

[quantumfaith]

Reply: Not sure the condition is true. I see it like this; since free will is what we have, it is part and parcel of having faith.It is a surrender of independence in the use of the free will and the believer is now enabled to use it in a manner pleasing to God through the indwelling of the Holy
Spirit as part of the body of Christ.

Reply:No

Reply: Free will was given to man by God in love.....giving it back is mans response to God's love. It fits rather well imo in this light.

Glad we are on good terms brother:thumbs:

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs: