Does this indicate a choice?

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It is not a delusional statement to say that dying people want to live. That indeed is a universal truth. People don't like death. The only ones that like death are believers who know they are going to be with the Lord, (and only then if they know that their time on earth is done), and 2, deceived Islamic terrorists who will blow willingly commit suicide thinking that that act will get them a free pass into paradise. With that deception they don't seem afraid to die either. But Winman isn't talking about Islam. He is speaking of drowning individuals. His point is valid.

Here is what he said again:

Here is the illustration expanded upon (my take on it).
A man swims 100 feet off the pier into water that is far over his head. The waters become rough, and he realizes he doesn't have the strength to swim back. He begins to yell for help, but at first is not heard. Now, losing strength, and beginning to drown he musters some more strength and calls for help. You happen to hear him. You see that he is in trouble.
You ask? http://baptistboard.com/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=1642495What is your problem?
His strength waning, he says: "I am drowning."
You advise him: "Swim to the shore and you shall be saved."
And with that wonderful bit of advice the man breathes his last and dies.

The problem was that he couldn't swim to the shore. He was drowning. If he could have swam to the shore then he wouldn't have drowned; he would have saved himself. But he wasn't able to do that. What did he need? He needed a Saviour.
He needed someone stronger and greater than he, that would come and grab him by the hand and place him on solid ground in a place of safety.

Salvation is a call for help. It is a call by the sinner to the Saviour. And He comes and takes the sinner by the hand, draws him out of the morass of sin, and places him on the solid rock where alone he will have salvation and forgiveness of sins.

Except in my scenario, he is the lifeguard who seeing you floundering, pulls you in & saves your life .... BTW, he has already warned you the water there was dangerous. Now if you are still stupid enough to continue to go out there thinking you are superior to the dangerous water current....well then, eventually you will sink.

 

[Luke2427]

I understand it's not a Calvinist position, but that's fine. I try to line my doctrine up with Scripture and not a system. I say that faith happens at regeneration. Otherwise, you would have regenerate people outside of Christ. But you also have passages (like II Corinthians 2:14) that show that the natural man won't come to Christ outside of Christ. That's why my position is that they happen at the same time. Faith is us believing on Jesus. Regeneration is God giving us new life. I believe God is the start of the events, but that it all happens at the same time.

That they come to Christ inside of Christ does not make sense.

And this is not just something that Calvinism asserts.

It is what the Bible teaches. I John 5:1 says, "Whosoever believeth that Jesus in the Christ HAS BEEN born of God."

Being born of God precedes believing that Jesus is the Christ.

It is not possible that the natural man can have saving faith because the saving faith is the very essence of "receiving the things of the Spirit of God" and the natural man clearly cannot do this. So he must be regenerated first.

 

[webdog]

Nobody said he breaks down the door, Winman. For the thousandth time he does not FORCE anybody to get saved.

he does not FORCE anybody to get saved.
he does not FORCE anybody to get saved.
he does not FORCE anybody to get saved.
he does not FORCE anybody to get saved.
he does not FORCE anybody to get saved.
he does not FORCE anybody to get saved.
he does not FORCE anybody to get saved.
he does not FORCE anybody to get saved.
he does not FORCE anybody to get saved.
he does not FORCE anybody to get saved.
he does not FORCE anybody to get saved.
he does not FORCE anybody to get saved.
he does not FORCE anybody to get saved.
he does not FORCE anybody to get saved.
he does not FORCE anybody to get saved.
he does not FORCE anybody to get saved.

Got it yet?

...yet The Archangel says the rescuer immobilizes the drowning victim in order to save them. Sounds like force to me.

 

[webdog]

Except in my scenario, he is the lifeguard who seeing you floundering, pulls you in & saves your life .... BTW, he has already warned you the water there was dangerous. Now if you are still stupid enough to continue to go out there thinking you are superior to the dangerous water current....well then, eventually you will sink.

The flaw in your portion of the analogy is he didn't warn them, he placed them in the waters.

 

[webdog]

Mets65 says:



Webdog replies:



Archangel says:



Winman replies:



Webdog replies:



My posting now? Webdog's hypocrisy on display. Q.E.D.

The Archangel

Again, pot or kettle?

 

[The Archangel]

Again, pot or kettle?

Neither.

The Archangel

 

[DHK]

That they come to Christ inside of Christ does not make sense.

And this is not just something that Calvinism asserts.

It is what the Bible teaches. I John 5:1 says, "Whosoever believeth that Jesus in the Christ HAS BEEN born of God."

Being born of God precedes believing that Jesus is the Christ.

Yes, that is your belief; not mine. That is why you can't agree with the illustration I gave. A drowning man cries out for help. He wants to be saved. But you say he cannot be saved. He must be "regenerated" first. Calvinism makes no sense. A man cries out to God and God cannot save him?? Calvinism ties the hands of God, and tells God that he cannot do what God wills to do.
What does God will to do?
God is not wiling that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.
(God) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4)
--But that is not what Calvinism teaches. Calvinism does not teach what the will of God teaches.

It is not possible that the natural man can have saving faith because the saving faith is the very essence of "receiving the things of the Spirit of God" and the natural man clearly cannot do this. So he must be regenerated first.

That is not what the Bible teaches. That is what Calvinism teaches.
The Bible teaches a man must have faith to be saved; but no where does it teach that that faith must come from God. Your very definition of faith is most likely an unbiblical definition.

 

[mets65]

I want one reason why christ would not predestine everyone to heaven.

 

[jbh28]

I want one reason why christ would not predestine everyone to heaven.

So let me ask you this, why doesn't God save everyone. If the death of Christ on the cross is sufficient for all(which I believe), then why doesn't God just save everyone?

 

[Luke2427]

Yes, that is your belief; not mine. That is why you can't agree with the illustration I gave. A drowning man cries out for help. He wants to be saved. But you say he cannot be saved. He must be "regenerated" first. Calvinism makes no sense. A man cries out to God and God cannot save him??

First of all, if I respond to this, am I going to have you shutting down my threads left and right out of frustration again?

I'll give it a shot and see how it goes.



NNE cries out to God UNTIL they are regenerated.

If one is drowning he will cry out to anything and everything else to save him but God until he is regenerated.

And if he cries out to "God" by name, per say, he is only interested in rescue from destruction which is STILL self worship and damnable- such a cry only frustrates the wrath already abiding on him. It is his wicked self interest that incurs the fierce wrath of Almighty God to begin with.

 

[Luke2427]

I want one reason why christ would not predestine everyone to heaven.

There is no display of Divine Wrath and Justice and hatred of evil if no one perishes.

God could offer the blood of Christ to Satan if God willed- but He will not because Satan serves a purpose: he, in his destruction and damnation, is an object that demonstrates the awesome and fearful holiness of God.

 

[DHK]

First of all, if I respond to this, am I going to have you shutting down my threads left and right out of frustration again?

I'll give it a shot and see how it goes.

NNE cries out to God UNTIL they are regenerated.

That is your opinion, and the opinion of some others. I don't believe it is Biblical, and can be proven Biblical. However you can discuss this without frustration and in a civil tone.

If one is drowning he will cry out to anything and everything else to save him but God until he is regenerated.

"There is no such thing as an atheist in a foxhole." It is a well-known adage. When death is imminent men start crying out to God. It has nothing to do with a so-called regenerated man. God does not put conditions on who may or may not call upon him. You cannot tie the hands of God and put restrictions upon him. It seems that you have put God in your box and have made him your puppet according to your theology. God is sovereign. He says whom he will, apart from your theology.

And if he cries out to "God" by name, per say, he is only interested in rescue from destruction which is STILL self worship and damnable- such a cry only frustrates the wrath already abiding on him. It is his wicked self interest that incurs the fierce wrath of Almighty God to begin with.

Your opinion and that is all. It is philosophy that you presented here, not the Word of God.
The Bible says that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved--totally contrary to what you have just said. It does not say: "Whoever is regenerated shall call upon the name of the Lord and shall therefore find salvation." I don't find that theology or philosophy in the Bible. It is what you teach.

 

[Iconoclast]

God is not wiling that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance

dhk ... God is very willing that many perish. You are mis-quoting scripture to fit your philosophy.

God is not wiling that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.
(God) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4)
--But that is not what Calvinism teaches. Calvinism does not teach what the will of God teaches

you descibe a god whose will does not get done.

 

[mets65]

Where does scripture say he is willing that many perrish?

 

[mets65]

He's not misquoting, that's what 2 Peter 3 says

 

[Luke2427]

That is your opinion, and the opinion of some others. I don't believe it is Biblical, and can be proven Biblical. However you can discuss this without frustration and in a civil tone.

"There is no such thing as an atheist in a foxhole." It is a well-known adage. When death is imminent men start crying out to God. It has nothing to do with a so-called regenerated man. God does not put conditions on who may or may not call upon him. You cannot tie the hands of God and put restrictions upon him. It seems that you have put God in your box and have made him your puppet according to your theology. God is sovereign. He says whom he will, apart from your theology.

Your opinion and that is all. It is philosophy that you presented here, not the Word of God.
The Bible says that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved--totally contrary to what you have just said. It does not say: "Whoever is regenerated shall call upon the name of the Lord and shall therefore find salvation." I don't find that theology or philosophy in the Bible. It is what you teach.

It is what the Bible teaches.

The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God... neither can he. I Cor. 2:14

Were God to throw him a lifeline he would not receive it. He'd sooner drown.

And you have not because you ask not. And you ask and do not receive because you wish to consume it upon your own lusts. That's what James said. You don't get what you ask God for because you ask him out of self interest. That's Bible.

Jesus said, "If you ask anything IN MY NAME I will do it."

In my name means for my sake and honor.

You do not ask God to save you for you.

You realize he is worthy to be served and you ask him to let you serve him.

That is what the Bible teaches.

This new idea that has come along in the past 100 years or so with the rise of nameless theologies and non-denominational and independent unaccountable churches that you can pray a prayer and be saved is not biblical.

 

[quantumfaith]

That is your opinion, and the opinion of some others. I don't believe it is Biblical, and can be proven Biblical. However you can discuss this without frustration and in a civil tone.

"There is no such thing as an atheist in a foxhole." It is a well-known adage. When death is imminent men start crying out to God. It has nothing to do with a so-called regenerated man. God does not put conditions on who may or may not call upon him. You cannot tie the hands of God and put restrictions upon him. It seems that you have put God in your box and have made him your puppet according to your theology. God is sovereign. He says whom he will, apart from your theology.

Your opinion and that is all. It is philosophy that you presented here, not the Word of God.
The Bible says that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved--totally contrary to what you have just said. It does not say: "Whoever is regenerated shall call upon the name of the Lord and shall therefore find salvation." I don't find that theology or philosophy in the Bible. It is what you teach.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[jbh28]

Where does scripture say he is willing that many perrish?

oh, so everyone goes to heaven?

 

[quantumfaith]

Where does scripture say he is willing that many perrish?

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[quantumfaith]

oh, so everyone goes to heaven?

Where did anyone say that?