Does unconditional election make God partial?

#1. Good to hear that God actually LOVES "The WORLD" as in EVERYONE!!

#2. Good to hear that you view the sacrifice given as THE atonement -- to Propitiate (appease) the Father (in the Calvinist view), "was of the magnitude" to suffice for ALL the DEBT owed by ALL the sins of ALL people of the Whole World.

#3. You say that the Bible NEVER says the "WHOLE WORLD" is saved -- (you know, "in actual words") - and yet I think you believe that "Christ is the proptiation for the SINS of the WHOLE WORLD" --

How do you reconcile your views with Calvinism?

In Christ,

Bob

 

I read the Bible. So far I haven't found it to contradict Calvinism. However it does contradict what non-Calvinists say about Calvinism. That should come as no surprise to you.

 

Bob,

When Jesus had finished saying all these things, he looked up to heaven and said, "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son so he can give glory back to you. For you have given him authority over everyone in all the earth. He gives eternal life to each one you have given him.

I guess we are all still on the word "world" again.

Jesus said;

My prayer is not for the world, but for those you have given me, because they belong to you.

Do you ever stop for a minute or two and think to yourself that just maybe.....just maybe you are using that word the way it is NOT intended in "for God so loved the world"?

I mean look how Jesus is using it. Take an honest look at that.

If I was a world traveler and told you;

"I have been all over the world"....

Would you rationally think that I have been over every square inch of the entire world?

You speak of drawing....but how about speaking about the One that ENABLES ?

May you be filled with joy, always thanking the Father, who has enabled you to share the inheritance that belongs to God's holy people, who live in the light. For he has rescued us from the one who rules in the kingdom of darkness, and he has brought us into the Kingdom of his dear Son. God has purchased our freedom with his blood and has forgiven all our sins. Colossians 1

If we are purchased..and forgiven all our sins..how are we not saved? And if we are saved...Who rescued us from darkness?

"Satan, the god of this evil world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe, so they are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News that is shining upon them. They don't understand the message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God" 2 Corinthians 4

It continues a little later with;

For God, who said, "Let there be light in the darkness," has made us understand that this light is the brightness of the glory of God that is seen in the face of Jesus Christ.

A couple things to think about.

God bless! Regards, KJB

 

There are benefits for the believer that do not exist for those that choose to reject salvation out of REAL choice.

"Behold I stand at the door and knock - IF anyone hears AND OPENS THE DOOR I will come in and fellowship WITH HIM" Rev 3

That promise of fellowship does not work IF YOU CHOOSE to never open the door.

This has always been the Arminian POV.

The WORLD has that invitation but the WORLD does not have the benefit of being IN fellowship with Christ UNLESS they all choose to open the door.

But this is not trick-gimmick marketeering lawyersleeze fine-print-gotcha as some suppose. God really does so LOVE THE WORLD and really IS NOT WILLING that ANY should perish. He really does die for the SINS of the "Whole World".

So the ENTRANCE - the INVITATION is really for all. No tricks, no gimmicks.

But the benefits of fellowship can only be obtained by first ENTERING into that relationship - OPENING the door!

You know - the funny thing is - James just "insisted" that I was WRONG to think that KJB, Pastor Larry etc DO NOT believe that God REALLY loves ALL People - EVERYONE - the ENTIRE World of humanity.

Let me see if I can find that for you.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1543/7.html#000103

In Christ,

Bob

 

Agian everywhere you find God hardening or hiding it is to a people who already have decided to not believe. Rejected the Christ. [ August 09, 2005, 10:49 AM: Message edited by: Timtoolman ]

 

You guys must have played twister alot when you were kids!

Bob, please read the Scripture again...take your time. I am serious! Read it a few times.

Slowwwwwwwly.

He gives eternal life to each one you have given him.

My prayer is not for the world, but for those you have given me, because they belong to you.

May you be filled with joy, always thanking the Father, who has enabled you to share the inheritance that belongs to God's holy people, who live in the light. For he has rescued us from the one who rules in the kingdom of darkness, and he has brought us into the Kingdom of his dear Son. God has purchased our freedom with his blood and has forgiven all our sins.

"Satan, the god of this evil world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe, so they are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News that is shining upon them. They don't understand the message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God"

For God, who said, "Let there be light in the darkness," has made us understand that this light is the brightness of the glory of God that is seen in the face of Jesus Christ.

Tim posted;

Who are the ones given, those who believe. God choose before the foundations that He would send a savoir to the people. He knew at the time who would accept this payment and He would predestian them to become like Him. He Choose us, Knew us and predestian us before we were ever born. Those are the ones given. Were is the contradiction?! With calvinist He choose certian people HE would allow to accept the work of the Christ and the rest He predestian to hell.

Where is the contradiction you ask? It seems it is all in your very own statement!

I can't hardly figure out what in blazes you are saying there. I don't even think you know what you are saying!

My prayer is not for the world, but for those you have given me, because they belong to you.

Tim says;

Here is one instance where Christ prayed for the elect here is another where HE prayed for them all "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" Just because we have Him praying for the elect at one time does not mean He did not pray for the non-elect. He also wept over them.

You use the word "elect". It happens to come from the word election. You know, like when you go and elect (choose) a president.

God's elect are His chosen people. That means He chose them. Non-elect would be non-chosen.

Tim says;

HOw has He enabled us? By providing the Christ. By providing His word, by providing His HS, by providing nature and a conscious that says so. If God had not made the move to bring us back to fellowship with HIm then we would be lost. We could not will ourselves or God to do something. We would just be lost. God of His own free will choose to provide a way, not out of debt or the goodness found in us, but in Him.

TIM And yet we find that God used parables to hide the message. And hide it other times "lest they should repent and believe." Rejection of the HS is a serious matter and should not be taken lightly. Calvinist are now saying that God and satan are working together to blind the people so they cannot believe?!!! No these people have already harden thier hearts and rejected the wooing of the HS.

Tim, it does not say all of that what you posted there.

It is very specific and says;

For he has rescued us from the one who rules in the kingdom of darkness, and he has brought us into the Kingdom of his dear Son.

The other verse said;

For God, who said, "Let there be light in the darkness," has made us understand

Wooing? Wooing you say? Like what kind of wooing? Holding out lollipops?

I missed the part of God wooing people away from blindness.

God commands "Let there be light in the darkness," and people understand. That is not wooing.

You posted;

Agian everywhere you find God hardening or hiding it is to a people who already have decided to not believe. Rejected the Christ.

And I ask you, would that be.....like Paul?

I don't really know how to keep responding to the posts from both of you.

So much is so twisted, absurd, and un-Biblical, its like we need to start from scratch!

I hardly know where to begin. Even basic Biblical concepts of mens minds being at enmity with God are foreign to you both.

I think I will have to ponder for awhile.

Regards, KJB

 

You ignored what you wanted and then don't know your bible for the rest. That may be my fault. I thought you knew basic concepts like Christ did talk in parabvles and hide things from people so they would not believe. I don't think you had ansewers and you ignored Christ prayer for all plus the fact God does not tell us NOT to pray for the unsaved. YOu have copped out and apparently run out calvinist answers. Maybe your comprehension is weak if so we can try one pt at a time.

YOu qoute one verse at the top about those getting eternal life that were given to Christ and I explain that the ones given are the ones who believe.

Then we talk about hardenig and you say would that be like Paul???? Was Paul harden?????!!!!! That does not make sense. Maybe you should slow down and just stick to one of us. You have painted youselft into every corner of the room so take some time and regroup.

 

Hey KJB ignore that last post. If a moderator would erase it for me it would be nice.

I think you are right there is some confusion so maybe for my sake we should try to take it one pt at a time. I do not put my thoughts and ideas down well. I need to take extra time and usually I don't.

What is the first thing you are confused about in the last post by my answer?

Thank you for taking the time to talk with me. Please continue to challenge my answers. Some of them are typed out too rashly.

Tim

 

Timtoolman,

Everything is A-OK buddy! Ok?

I am also not one for always getting my points through very well! And I also get irritated at times with myself, as well as others.

It seems that most of Bob's posts are in total disagreement with Scripture.

Your posts seemed to be saying you did not agree with me, while at the same time much of what you posted is in agreement.

We can go on one point at a time if you wish.

How about this one;

Agian everywhere you find God hardening or hiding it is to a people who already have decided to not believe. Rejected the Christ.

I was only mentioning that Paul was pretty darn hardened against Christians. But God had mercy on him and softened him up.

There are other instances also.

God bless! KJB

 

Hi 4 Hisglory;

If what you say is true then why did God according to Calvinism not elect all men? Couldn't He just as easily elected us all or was His power limited to just a few?.

May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will harden whom I will harden.

What's up clay? ... I mean ILL?

 

If what you say is true then why did God according to Calvinism not elect all men? Couldn't He just as easily elected us all or was His power limited to just a few?.

May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike </font>[/QUOTE]Why does God save anybody? He does so for His names sake, He will always do what brings Him the most glory. </font>[/QUOTE]bringing less than all people to worship Him brings Him the most glory? Makes no sense.

 

How does a dead person get hardened?

 

God said --

Rom 9
15For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.”

But Calvinism says

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by rc:
I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will harden whom I will harden.

Interesting.

How did Pharaoh "harden his heart"??

In Christ,

Bob

 

My prayer is not for the world, but for those you have given me, because they belong to you.


As was "already posted" - Christ is praying for the blessings that follow after believing.

His John 17 prayer is NOT to pray "Father May these followers please BELIEVE and accept the Gospel. I also pray this same blessing of BELIEVING on all who would BELIEVE through them" as the circular argument, KJB is trying to promote, would have it -

Why does Calvinism always resort to that same tactic of a circular argument??

I think it is a pattern that once started is hard for them to break.

In Christ,

Bob

 

He does harden who He will harden.

God hardens hearts. God hardened Pharoahs heart.

In Ex 4,7, God hardened the Pharoah

In chpt 14 He hardened the Eygptians!

 

Hi 4Hisglory;

This doesn't answer the question of why God left out so many and still remains impartial. If you had a reason He did so, it would mean impartially doesn't exsist in His decision on who and who doesn't get elected. Everything under the sun has a reason even why God didn't choose all,if infact He didn't. It's something that get's left out there in never never land. It's not nice to question God.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

So far so good for Calvinism! (If we exclude vs 15-16)-- Perfect Calvinist point here - the chapter should END here to preserve the Calvinist point and not wreck it. It appears that maybe God is claiming that it is not man's choice - but rather God's choice to NOT have Mercy on the many, and to harden them instead.

But wait a minute!

The text instructs us to SEE what the scripture says about Pharaoh!-
A. His heart "was hardened" Exodus 7:13, Ex 9:7,35
B. And the blame is assigned to Pharaoh who "Hardened His own Heart" Exodus 8:15,32
C. And The all-knowing God by sending His judgments - takes an active role such that "God hardened Pharaoh" Ex 7:3, 10:1,20
These are ALL true because the action of God designed for SOFTENING – results in hardening when the soul chooses to reject light rather than accept it.

How does a dead man “harden his heart”?? The answer is that In ALL God has supernaturally placed “enmity between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent” Gen 3 so that mankind is supernaturally “drawn to God” against his own sinful nature. Mankind is ENABLED to choose to respond to the “Knocking at the door” Rev 3. And mankind CAN choose to harden his heart instead of opening the door. With each of God’s “knocking” convictions, judgments – calling – we can either soften and respond to the John 16 work of the Spirit or harden our hearts against it.

The pristine Calvinist example of Pharaoh being neutral - and God arbitrarily hardening him is missing from the account. Rather, God is sending those judgment designed to soften and turn the wicked from their ways - but when the wicked "Refuse to take Correction" as we see Israel doing in Jeremiah 5, the result is "hardening".


#1. Whatever happened to "Total depravity"? Why would God need to "harden" anyone? Aren't we "ALL" sinners, and all by nature inclined to be "hardened" against God? Wouldn't the "outside act" of God only be needed if He wanted to "change" our sinful response to something other than the "totally depraved" hardening that we ourselves are always going to adopt? Is Calvinism trying to have it "both ways" on this point? Indeed this is our first clue that something is not right in Calvinism’s spin for this text.

#2 As pointed out in the previous note - this approach only applies to that subgroup within the Arminian camp that believe that man is "neutral" and that do not accept the "totally depraved" aspect of our sinful nature. Only in that context COULD there be "hardening" by God! And that is a starting point that even Calvinists “Admit” is false. But if that sometimes-Arminian starting point WERE true – then this “hardening by God of NEUTRAL souls” would indeed be the devious and wicked plot "against" man based on “partiality alone” that Calvinists imagine it to be.

It would “show” active dislike/hatred/evil-intent by God against a being that is otherwise neutral and might otherwise have chosen God if God had not actively "hardened them" of His own choice, bias and partiality! But such an internally-self-conflicted Calvinist scenario – is not the case.

#3. The softening principle of scripture:

Isaiah 26:9-10

This is true in general - it is not a specific statement about just - Israel.

#4. The hardening principle when man rejects God's correction

 

Hi 4 Hisglory;

That is not a review or response to Romans 2 - it is simply a summary statement saying why you don't like the text.

Romans 2 -- if this chapter is only about the failing case, only about the wrath of God - then we will not find success, mercy, reward but only condemnation, wrath, punishment. Let's now let the text reveal which way it will go.

Here is the “succeeding case” explicitly listed by Paul. And it is in the context of God - leading to repentance. We also have the people of God - persevering, doing good and seeking glory and honor. What is the result? The text says immortality and eternal life.

Some have supposed that a “judgment” that is impartial as Paul points to in vs 6 and 11 must “only have failing cases”. But Paul shows in vs 7 that such is not the case. The “Good News” does not require God to arbitrarily be “partial to the FEW of Matt 7” as some have supposed. Rather it allows for God to be “impartial” and to SAVE mankind on that basis!

The “Failing case”: Clearly a contrast is being introduced "but to those who are selfish" - contrasted with what? Those who repent, seek eternal glory and honor and persevere. Persevere in what?

You must be on the right path to be approved in perseveringly staying on the right path. It is obvious I know, but worth noting.

So God has now contrasted the good and the wicked, those who persevere on the right path and those who are not even on it.

We already know that in the judgment there are two classes - those that receive immortality and those that do not. If it is not clear to us by now that this chapter is dealing with both classes - we need to engage in some remedial reading comprehension.

At this point Paul seems to ask that we "be not deceived" into thinking that some can do evil but find "preferred treatment" because God will “favor the few over the many”. He does not let us suppose that others are lost for doing evil while the “favored” ones do evil and go to heaven. Rather Paul argues that God has called all to repentance and all must comply - there will be no preferred treatment based on status (or magic phrase) allowing some of the rebels in.

But basic to Paul’s solution is the affirmation that God is NOT partial when it comes to the Gospel – when it comes to Salvation. That means that He is NOT favoring the “few” of Matt 7 over the “many” so that He can save the “Few”. Rather – impartiality demands that ALL be given the same salvation-sequence. ALL have the Holy Spirit convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment (John 16:8) and ALL have the Drawing of God (John 12:32) and ALL have the Lord Jesus Christ standing at the door and knocking – and ALL have the SAME promise of the New Covenant that “changes the TREE itself” Matt 7 and writes the Law of God on the heart (Heb 8).

Rather than simply “favoring some over others” the system defined above is “impartial” as God HIMSELF is “Impartial”. This Gospel truth was a huge problem for the Jews and is a big problem for Calvinism.

In Christ,

Bob