Does world mean every individual?

[psalms109:31]

Jesus words

Jesus words are powerful than you all claim it to be it.

It can go past all the blindness and give it the choice that it gives us.

To believe in Jesus and be saved or not and be condemned.

God does love this world and has given the world a hope through Jesus and we are the messengers of the Holy Spirit which is in the words of Jesus.

The blind want to decieve men and not give it the hope it has in Jesus.

 

[GordonSlocum]

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:


Just wondering if God has elected us to salvation why have we got to
make it sure ??????????

Now that is an interesting point

 

[GordonSlocum]

17. "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

18. "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19. "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

These verse are the core of this discussion​

(1) there is a World

(2) God who created it sends His son into it

(3) The Son is not sent this time to judge the world (if we stop here it can mean what ever is created -in my opinion that would include mankind)

(4) Next the Son was sent into the world so that it might be saved. (First that has to mean humans. But if we force only the cosmos on it then the purpose of Grace would be to some how redeem treed, water, dirt, etc. - that make absolutely no sense at all) It has to mean people - but all or only some. I believe all

(5) Vs. 18 a part of the context (saved and believed should make that clear so the word world would mean mankind but is it some or all?)

(6) Well the second part of vs. 18 includes the ones not believing - The context includes both believing ones and non-believing ones. Here again the context tells us the world is believing ones and non-believing ones.

(7) Lest any doubt the lost are a part of this “world” please do carefully read vs. 19. Is not verse 19 a complete though - expressing? Was my English teacher nuts or did they teach me correctly? World and men are the same in this verse.
(8) Now these lovers of darkness, called the World, Men kind of Worldlings. Are all doing deeds of evil. Here the verse is a blanket statement on the depravity of man. And yet we just read that some of these poor lost souls believe and some don’t.

I personally believe any exposition of these verse that does not understand “world” as all mankind regardless of state Just doesn’t get it. There really is not debate if we just let the language say what it says. But we know that won’t happen because there are some very strong agendas. To let go and give in - well you guessed it - spoils the broth - keep the poison out of the broth and the castle crumbles. I don't see that happening in my life time.

I will stick with the clear meaning of the text, no frills, no fancy, no dancy, just the text.

 

[El_Guero]

Point out how you would use John 3:16 for universalism. I have never seen it used in that manner.

We have seen John 3:16 abused to the point of universalism. I was wondering how many verses in the bible mean every individual when it says world. I'll post a few where obviously it does not mean every individual.
John 3:16 the word world means Jew and Gentile alike.
Luke 2:1 the word world obviously does not mean every individual.
John 4:42 is Jesus the Savior of every individual? Not those who will never receive Him.
John 7:4 how could someone of that day show themselves to the whole world?

Feel free to post more references to the world that obviously do not mean every individual that ever existed. This may enlighten some. Grace and peace

 

[reformedbeliever]

Point out how you would use John 3:16 for universalism. I have never seen it used in that manner.

Did I say that John 3:16 could be universalistic? If I did that was a mistake. I meant the inclusive of all mankind uses of world where it would not be such. I've had surgery today and am not up to doing much on here, so it may be a day or so before I get back to it.

 

[Jarthur001]

17. "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

18. "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19. "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

These verse are the core of this discussion​

(1) there is a World

(2) God who created it sends His son into it

(3) The Son is not sent this time to judge the world (if we stop here it can mean what ever is created -in my opinion that would include mankind)

(4) Next the Son was sent into the world so that it might be saved. (First that has to mean humans. But if we force only the cosmos on it then the purpose of Grace would be to some how redeem treed, water, dirt, etc. - that make absolutely no sense at all) It has to mean people - but all or only some. I believe all

(5) Vs. 18 a part of the context (saved and believed should make that clear so the word world would mean mankind but is it some or all?)

(6) Well the second part of vs. 18 includes the ones not believing - The context includes both believing ones and non-believing ones. Here again the context tells us the world is believing ones and non-believing ones.

(7) Lest any doubt the lost are a part of this “world” please do carefully read vs. 19. Is not verse 19 a complete though - expressing? Was my English teacher nuts or did they teach me correctly? World and men are the same in this verse.
(8) Now these lovers of darkness, called the World, Men kind of Worldlings. Are all doing deeds of evil. Here the verse is a blanket statement on the depravity of man. And yet we just read that some of these poor lost souls believe and some don’t.

I personally believe any exposition of these verse that does not understand “world” as all mankind regardless of state Just doesn’t get it. There really is not debate if we just let the language say what it says. But we know that won’t happen because there are some very strong agendas. To let go and give in - well you guessed it - spoils the broth - keep the poison out of the broth and the castle crumbles. I don't see that happening in my life time.

I will stick with the clear meaning of the text, no frills, no fancy, no dancy, just the text.

Do you like sports?

 

[El_Guero]

Do you like sports?

Hockey is great . . . have you given blood lately?

:type:

 

[Jarthur001]

Hockey is great . . . have you given blood lately?

:type:

I asked if you like sports...not hockey

But...Hockey will do. You see the "world" debate is easy to see in sports.

 

[David Lamb]

The importance of "so"

In this discussion about John 3.16, and in particular the meaning of "world" there, it must also be important to determine what the Greek word translated in many English versions as "so" actually means. Like so many words in English, "so" has many meanings.

I might say to my wife, "I do love you so," meaning that I love her such a lot.

Another time, I might say to her, "Let's have breakfast at 6 a.m. so we can make an early start," where "so" means "in order that".

And there are many other uses of "so".

Particularly in older English, "so" can mean "thus", "in this way".

I am no Greek scholar, but I understand that the word translated "so" in John 3.16 means "in this way". The Strong's entry, 3779, for the word says:

in this way (referring to what precedes or follows):— after that, after (in) this manner, as, even (so), for all that, like(-wise), no more, on this fashion(-wise), so (in like manner), thus, what.

It's the same word that is translated "in this manner" in Matthew 6.9, where Jesus says:

"In this manner <3779>, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name."

So John 3.16 is telling us the manner in which God loved the world, not the extent. There are other passages that deal with that matter. Romans 9.13-24 is one:

13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."
14 ¶ What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!
15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."
16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."
18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"
20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"
21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

I was surprised to discover that there are several English traslations of the bible that actually translate the first words of John 3.16 along the lines of "God loved the world so much". Examples are the Amplified Bible, the Living Bible, Moffat New Translation, New English Bible, Today's English Version, the Jerusalem Bible, and The Message.

"God loved the world in this way" means something quite different to "God love the world so much."

Every blessing,

 

[GordonSlocum]

Do you like sports?

An occasional football game, golf here and there.

 

[Jarthur001]

In this discussion about John 3.16, and in particular the meaning of "world" there, it must also be important to determine what the Greek word translated in many English versions as "so" actually means. Like so many words in English, "so" has many meanings.

I might say to my wife, "I do love you so," meaning that I love her such a lot.

Another time, I might say to her, "Let's have breakfast at 6 a.m. so we can make an early start," where "so" means "in order that".

And there are many other uses of "so".

Particularly in older English, "so" can mean "thus", "in this way".

I am no Greek scholar, but I understand that the word translated "so" in John 3.16 means "in this way". The Strong's entry, 3779, for the word says:

in this way (referring to what precedes or follows):— after that, after (in) this manner, as, even (so), for all that, like(-wise), no more, on this fashion(-wise), so (in like manner), thus, what.

It's the same word that is translated "in this manner" in Matthew 6.9, where Jesus says:

"In this manner <3779>, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name."

So John 3.16 is telling us the manner in which God loved the world, not the extent. There are other passages that deal with that matter. Romans 9.13-24 is one:

13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."
14 ¶ What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!
15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."
16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."
18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"
20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"
21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

I was surprised to discover that there are several English traslations of the bible that actually translate the first words of John 3.16 along the lines of "God loved the world so much". Examples are the Amplified Bible, the Living Bible, Moffat New Translation, New English Bible, Today's English Version, the Jerusalem Bible, and The Message.

"God loved the world in this way" means something quite different to "God love the world so much."

Every blessing,

Indeed.

This is why I asked about sports. We that love sport often say...we love sports. One sport I love is basketball. It if fair to say I love basketball. But I love one team like no other team. I want MY team to win. Though other teams are part of Basketball, and ....I have said I love basketball, to these OTHER teams I do not share the same love as I do my team. I go to my teams game. I buy shirts with my team logo on it. When my team plays another team, I want my team to win.

Is not the other team plaing basketball? Well...Yes
Did not I say I love basketball? Well...Yes
My love for the game does not mean I love each team.

Does God love all mankind the same? If I told my wife I love all ladies just as much as I love her, where do you think I would be sleeping for the next month or maybe year? Do you love my kids just as much as you love your own kids? If so, I have some colleges bills to send to you so that YOU can pay them.

Now I know the sport thing falls apart in the end. But the main point remains.

That is....

We can and do love a group as a whole, but not the same as we love a team.

We can be a kind people loving person, and yet we love our wife greater.

We love kids, but our kids we love greater then others.

Like wise...God loves the world, but LOVES the elect more then others, for we are His bride.

 

[psalms109:31]

Hope

Men love to have hope in thier own election and leave the world out in the cold.

God does love the whole world that He sent His Son.

It is only those whgo believe in Jesus that will be saved and it it is those who are elected to salvation.

We are not elected to believe we are elected by a choice that whosoever believes ios elected onto salvation and whosoever does not is elected to condemnation.

God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

Men do need to come off thier mountain and into the valley and give the world the hope they have in Jesus.

God is no respector of person the same hope you have God has given to the world and made you a messenger of it.

We have good news, not bad news.

It is believers that have been elected to salvation before the foundation of the world, not individual and believers are the church.

The hidden church that has been revealed through Jesus Christ.

God loves the world but is not going to save the world only believers as the word of God says

 

[Brother Bob]

What difference does it make that He love the "elect" more? God so loved the world is all which includes the unsaved, that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever would believe should not perish but have everlasting life. Now we are talking about "whosoever" which don't just include the "elect" but "whosoever".
Also, He "gave His Son" not just the elect, it don't say just the elect but it says "whosoever" which would include anyone who will "believe", which brings us back to "faith" which is what it has taken to be saved since time began.

The Scripture says He is Saviour of the world but a special Saviour to the believer. So "believe" then you will be a part of the Special Saviour.

You say He don't hear the dead in sin.
Then you say, you don't know if He hears the dead in sin.

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello psalms

You may have got the wrong understanding of the doctrines of grace. Lets look.

Men love to have hope in thier own election and leave the world out in the cold.

A Calvinist says all men are sinners. God chooses based on His own pleasure. Therefore, man can not have pride in what they did. Freewillers do not believe what I just said. No pride in election by Calvinist, but rather.."why me Lord?"

God does love the whole world that He sent His Son.

Amen We all agree.

It is only those whgo believe in Jesus that will be saved and it is those who are elected to salvation.

We agree.

We are not elected to believe we are elected by a choice that whosoever believes ios elected onto salvation and whosoever does not is elected to condemnation.

This this the old "foreknow" deal? God picks the people...just as God picked a nation.

God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

God forknew Cain would not believe, yet Cain was born. Why did God not save the world before Cain was born? If God had done this, noone would have went to hell.

Men do need to come off thier mountain and into the valley and give the world the hope they have in Jesus.

Calvinist ask.."why pick me"? Freewillers say..."it was me that choose".
Who is high on self?

God is no respector of person the same hope you have God has given to the world and made you a messenger of it.

The context this is used is judgement. All the passages that speak of election say God elects for His pleasure. Some to mercy..some no mercy. What do you think?

We have good news, not bad news.

It is believers that have been elected to salvation before the foundation of the world, not individual and believers are the church.

Are you saying this to me or God?

The hidden church that has been revealed through Jesus Christ.

Agree

God loves the world but is not going to save the world only believers as the word of God says

yes...and that would mean He loves the elect that He saves.

 

[David Lamb]

Men love to have hope in thier own election and leave the world out in the cold.

I have often seen references in your posts to this idea of people believing in election rather than in Christ for salvation. I did think at one stage that you meant the Jews, the natural descendants of Abraham, who even in the days when Jesus was bodily on earth looked to their ancestry as the basis for a right relationship with God. Do you mean the Jews, or are you talking about people who say they are Christians?

God does love the whole world that He sent His Son.

No, that's not what the bible says. It says, "God so loved the world (meaning "God loved the world in this way") that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

It is only those who believe in Jesus that will be saved and it it is those who are elected to salvation.

We are not elected to believe we are elected by a choice that whosoever believes is elected unto salvation and whosoever does not is elected to condemnation.

If God waits to see if we believe, and then elects us as a result of our belief, then that might be a sort of "election", but it's not God's choice. Rather, Acts 13.48 has the order like this: "Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

Men do need to come off their mountain and into the valley and give the world the hope they have in Jesus.

God is no respector of person the same hope you have God has given to the world and made you a messenger of it.

We have good news, not bad news.

It is believers that have been elected to salvation before the foundation of the world, not individual and believers are the church.

The hidden church that has been revealed through Jesus Christ.

God loves the world but is not going to save the world only believers as the word of God says

Your words seem to suggest that those of us who believe in God's electing grace 1) are boastful 2) are not eager to preach the gospel to unbelievers, and 3) think we only have bad news. Well, there may be people who go around saying things like, "Look at me. I must be so wonderful for God to have elected me!" or "We don't need to preach or to witness. If God has elected someone to salvation, they'll come to believe." There may also be some (though I have never heard anyone doing so) who preach a "bad news gospel", saying to their hearers, "Jesus died to save sinners, but don't get your hopes up - if you're not among the elect, He didn't die for you." There may be people like that. However, I'm glad to assure you that such unbiblical beliefs as those are not held by those who believe in God's electing love. William Carey was a so-called "Particular Baptist" - that is, he believed that Christ died for particular people, not "the world" in its entirety. Yet he was at the forefront of 18th century missionary work. Spurgeon was tireless in gospel work, yet he believed in election. And there are and were multitudes more.

Please don't make (false) assumptions about people who believe in election. And if I have made any false assumptions about you, please forgive me.

May God richly bless you,

 

[psalms109:31]

world

2 Chronicles 16:9
For the eyes of the LORD range throughout the earth to strengthen those whose hearts are fully committed to him. You have done a foolish thing, and from now on you will be at war."

I will not disagree with calvinist teaching, but will tell you that thier teaching is incomplete just like any words that comes from man.

We need to know how we were before Jesus and how hopeless we were as Paul so eliquently teaches us.

When we lift Jesus up God will draw all men to Himself.

We do need to know that it is not Abraham being our father that we are elected to salvation God loved Jacob but hated Esua. Why because God foreknew that Esua would give up things from Him for a moments pleasure.

We are no longer of any laws and regulation, we have a better hope in which we draw near to God through Jesus Christ.

God has opened the door for the world through Jesus Christ.

Just come to Jesus and trust in Him and you will not be disapointed.

Do not let goats lead you into the pit of your own destruction, but trust in Jesus.

God loved the world that He sent His Son, that means everyone of you.

Do not turn away from Jesus because of mens missunderstanding of God's word.

God chose to save believers so it is the will of God that you are saved.

 

[webdog]

Indeed.

This is why I asked about sports. We that love sport often say...we love sports. One sport I love is basketball. It if fair to say I love basketball. But I love one team like no other team. I want MY team to win. Though other teams are part of Basketball, and ....I have said I love basketball, to these OTHER teams I do not share the same love as I do my team. I go to my teams game. I buy shirts with my team logo on it. When my team plays another team, I want my team to win.

Is not the other team plaing basketball? Well...Yes
Did not I say I love basketball? Well...Yes
My love for the game does not mean I love each team.

Does God love all mankind the same? If I told my wife I love all ladies just as much as I love her, where do you think I would be sleeping for the next month or maybe year? Do you love my kids just as much as you love your own kids? If so, I have some colleges bills to send to you so that YOU can pay them.

Now I know the sport thing falls apart in the end. But the main point remains.

That is....

We can and do love a group as a whole, but not the same as we love a team.

We can be a kind people loving person, and yet we love our wife greater.

We love kids, but our kids we love greater then others.

Like wise...God loves the world, but LOVES the elect more then others, for we are His bride.

You are only giving human examples of love. God is love and His love supercedes anything we can ever imagine as humans.

 

[Jarthur001]

You are only giving human examples of love. God is love and His love supercedes anything we can ever imagine as humans.

Good point. Lets give Bible examples.

How deep is Gods love for His people? Isaiah is clear on this...
Isaiah 43

1But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.

This shows the personal love that I talked about in another thread. This is the same idea as "foreknow".

2When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.

3For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.

This is POWERFUL here. Notice God gave other people up...for a ransom for his own people. WOW. This is mainly talking about when God lead them though the red sea. God held back the waters for them to pass though, and let the waters go...as those from Egypt was in the sea. BTW...this killed them. And God did this for His people.

Now we must go back to remember what went on. Could God have just killed one leader of Egypt? This would have let 1000s live. But God choose not to do this, and gave them up, so His choosen people could live. WOW Wait...there is more.

4Since thou wast precious in my sight, thou hast been honourable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life.

God loves His people so much, He will give others away for the life of His own. WOW...now that is some love.

5Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;

6I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;

7Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

Check this out. This is election all together. This is NOT all people. Just His own.

8Bring forth the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears.

9Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth.

10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

11I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

God will tell the whole WORLD...He will gather the nations. I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me!!!!!! The REASON for the choosing was that they may KNOW and BELIEVE!! WOW...good stuff.

12I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.

13Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?

It will be DONE, because God decreed it. How about this apples?

14Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships.

15I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.

Notice again...God brought down nobles....just for His peoples sake. WOW

16Thus saith the LORD, which maketh a way in the sea, and a path in the mighty waters;

17Which bringeth forth the chariot and horse, the army and the power; they shall lie down together, they shall not rise: they are extinct, they are quenched as tow.

18Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old.

19Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.

20The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen.

21This people have I formed for myself; they shall shew forth my praise.
*************

Now that is what I'm talking about people.

 

[psalms109:31]

John 5:
36"I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the very work that the Father has given me to finish, and which I am doing, testifies that the Father has sent me. 37And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

Matthew 23:37
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

Hebrews 3:
Warning Against Unbelief
7So, as the Holy Spirit says:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
8do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the desert,
9where your fathers tested and tried me
and for forty years saw what I did.
10That is why I was angry with that generation,
and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.'
11So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.' "
12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15As has just been said:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."
16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.