There's a strong counter argument. Let me give it a try... nuh uh!
You misunderstood me, I was agreeing with you.
Seriously, I acknowledged the context and still kept my grammatical arguments within those parameters. I never once said the point of the verse was to argue for an ordo salutis. I am saying that John's ordo salutis is part of his language even when he is talking about something else.
I agree, you did.
Like I've been saying, if you are right, then you should have no problem showing me the flaw in my understanding of 1 Jn 5:1 other than the context card (see above) or the dozen verse argument you keep referring to. I want to know where I erred in my exegesis of 1 Jn 5:1.
I am limited in that I neither know Greek, nor am I an expert at grammar. That said, I believe the many verses that all show faith preceding regeneration score a complete knockout. Scripture cannot contradict itself. You don't use one OBSCURE verse to override a dozen or more verses that are very plain and easy to understand. For example Ephesians 1:13;
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted,
after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also
after that ye believed,
ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
You cannot argue that Eph 1:13 does not address order. It shows that a person, #1 hears the gospel, #2 believes the gospel, #3 and then is sealed by the Holy Spirit. I would argue from Romans 8:9 that a person is regenerated the moment they receive and are sealed by the Holy Spirit.
Yes... in the order of words, "believes" becomes before "having been born by God." That is why I also mentioned the grammar. Grammatically & even syntactically, the "believes" is a result of the perfect passive "having been born". It could be reworded just as easily and still mean the same thing: "Everyone having been born by God believes the Messiah is Jesus." PS: Word order doesn't matter in Greek! (that was not yelling, just making sure you notice that)
I don't know Greek, so I have no idea if what you are telling me is true or not. You need to debate with someone who knows Greek and Greek grammar well. I simply am not equipped to enter into this type of argument.
That said, I rely on the fact that the scriptures are accurately translated and can be depended upon in English. Again, at least a dozen or more verses all show faith preceding regeneration, I believe this easily overrules one obscure verse. By your own admission this verse is slightly obscure and could go either way.
Well that is the disagreement, isn't it. I would differ, but that is for another thread. I want to focus on 1 Jn 5:1
So did Biblicist. You can pull one verse out of scripture and prove anything with it. This is exactly what many cults do.
I guess my beef with that, though again this detracts from 1 Jn 5:1, is that "everlasting life" is not regeneration. As scholars like Dan Wallace have pointed out, "life" in the gospel account of John is pretty much always a reference to eternal life or life of the age to come. It does not equate to regeneration except when you have the very idea of being born from above/again in Jn 3. Everywhere else, it is eternal life... as in life of the age to come (literally "life of the age").
I would disagree. You are either dead or alive. There are not different degrees of life. Jesus said the person who has believed has passed from death to life.
Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from
death unto life.
This verse follows the order shown in Ephesians 1:13, Jesus said the person who hears his word and believes has everlasting life. Then he says that person has passed from death to life.
Calvinists run into difficulty after difficulty because they will simply not believe what scripture plainly says. They have to argue that a person is alive, but does not have everlasting life or is saved.
The argument over John 1:12-13 becomes ridiculous, the Calvinist has to argue that God makes a person "born again" , but that person is not a "son of God" yet. After being born again, this person must now believe, and then God gives additional power to this person to become a son of God. That is just ridiculous.
Some here claim a person can walk around for years (even decades) being regenerated before they believe on Jesus. This person would be both spiritually alive and spiritually dead at the same time! R.C. Sproul believes this ridiculous theory.
No, scripture is plain, you are dead in sins until you believe. The moment you believe your sins are forgiven and you receive the Holy Spirit. You are now spiritually alive. No problems, no contradictions, no ridiculous theories necessary to explain away serious problems that Calvinism encounters.
Of course, this would mean that Calvinism is total error, and many folks do not want to admit this is true.
