I guess that is is partly my point. The grammar is quite clear. There is nothing "OBSCURE" in 1 Jn 5:1. It is straight forward in the text. So why can't I use this to interpret those other verses. After all, you have to start w/ at least 1 verse to interpret the rest. I choose this on.
Again, I have no way to know if what you say is correct or not. I have read articles supporting both views from Greek scholars. Here is someone who argues against you from the Greek
1 John 5:1
A final verse Dr. Sproul references to support his view that regeneration precedes faith is 1 John 5:1 "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God." He cites the verse, but provides no explanation.
Traditional later reformed support from this passage is based on the Greek verbs in this passage. The verb for believe is present tense: "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ…" It's also a participle; a more literal translation is "Everyone believing that Jesus is the Christ..." The second verb for "born," is perfect tense: "...has been born of God."
According to later reformed exegesis and interpretation the perfect tense carries with it the idea of past action with continuing results. Being born of God produces results continuing into the present. When the present participle, believing, is coupled with the perfect tense verb, being born of God, faith is the result of being born again. The voice is passive; God alone accomplishes this birth. Faith is the result of regeneration; regeneration produces, and hence precedes, faith.
This interpretation, however, is unwarranted from the tense of the Greek verbs. There are at least two examples in John's writings where, rather than the present tense participle resulting from the perfect tense verb, the perfect tense verb results from the present tense participle.
One example is John 3:18. "Whoever believes (present participle) in him is not condemned (perfect tense)." Believing removes, and hence, precedes, not being condemned. Expressed positively: "Whoever believes (present participle) in him is has been justified (perfect tense). Believing is not the result of having been justified; rather, faith precedes justification. 30
A second example is 1 John 5:10 "Whoever does not believe (present participle) God has made (perfect tense) him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son." The perfect tense, making God a liar, is a result of the present participle, not believing.
The most you can conclude from the Greek present participle and the perfect tense verb is that the actions occur contemporaneously. There is regeneration and there is faith. The Greek tenses do no more to establish the order of salvation than the conjunction "and" in the previous statement.
Source-
http://danmusicktheology.com/faith-precedes-regeneration/
So, this fellow who seems to know both Greek and Greek grammar disagrees with you and gives good examples to support his view.
But I know neither Greek, nor am I a scholar on grammar, so I will go with the nearly dozen or so verses that all show faith preceding regeneration.
Couple things on this one (since I have written a 55 page paper on the Greek of this verse):
First, don't use the KJV here. It is very misleading.
You are talking to a King James ONLY. :laugh:
No way you are going to convince me the KJB is in error here. But that is another debate.
Second, the sequence you perceive is a logical sequence. The participles are causal not temporal. This is similar to what I am arguing for 1 Jn 5:1.
I don't argue order from this verse at all. I argue order from many other verses that all show faith precedes regeneration.
Third, this verse says nothing about regeneration. So it isn't a good illustration of what you want to say in order to disprove me. Rom. 8:9 nor Eph. 1:13 says nothing about regeneration.
Titus 3:5 shows that regeneration is a washing of sin, which only occurs after faith. We are also renewed by the Holy Ghost at the same moment, and MANY scriptures show we receive the Holy Spirit AFTER believing.
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,
by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
We are justified by faith. We receive the Spirit by faith. You cannot be renewed by the Spirit until you receive the Spirit.
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you,
Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Paul's question demands the answer that we received the Spirit by faith.
Acts 19:2 He said unto them,
Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Paul's question absolutely implies he believed a person receives the Spirit after first believing.
So how can you be washed of your sins and be renewed by the Spirit unless you first believed??
As I have told you, there are MANY scriptures that support faith preceding regeneration. I can show you MANY more. You choose to ignore these many scriptures because you want to believe the Reformed/Calvinist view, even though the vast majority of scripture argues against it.
As was pointed out in the OP, essentially and grammatically that is what it says! And it is worse, since word order doesn't matter, it could better be translated, "Each one who has been born by God believes that the Messiah is Jesus." This is a very legit translation. Again, word order doesn't matter in Greek. Just b/c something was said first is not of prime importance (except for emphasis, maybe). The grammar of the perfect passive "having been born" means that it logically precedes the present participle "believes". In other words, the birth causes the faith. Or to put the emphasis on the belief that proves one's status as a Christian (part of the point of 1 Jn), faith is mentioned first for emphasis as the result of being born by God.
No matter what though, I hope you are at least willing to admit that (1) you (the non calvie) has a prob w/ this verse since you are not willing to exegete it but deferring to a dozen other verses & (2) you have seen a grammatical argument that backs up the calvie view. So we are not believing this in a vacuum. We do believe we have Scripture that supports our view.
And as I have shown, there are Greek scholars that disagree with you. Either way, I have no way to know.
But this I do know, there are a dozen or more scriptures that ALL support faith preceding regeneration.
I believe my evidence is MUCH BETTER than yours.
