Dominion vs determinism

[KenH]

You seem to think a person is saved/born again prior to them even believing in Christ. That is not a biblical view but it the calvinist view.

It is not a matter of what I think it, it is what God’s Word teaches.

From what you have said in your post the Holy Spirit got it wrong.

You are wrong in your description of me. The Holy Spirit, a member of the Godhead, is never wrong. I believe what God’s Word teaches.

 

[KenH]

1. “LORD said to my Lord” = God is saying to Jesus “Sit at the Fathers right hand until the Father makes Christ’s enemies His footstool”.

2. “The LORD will stretch form Your strong scepter” = God will stretch forth Christ’s rule (scepter) from Zion while Christ is seated at God’s right hand. = He did this in Acts, Christ’s reign stretched from Jerusalem to Rome. Christ is seated at God’s right hand now.

3. “Rule in the midst” = The Father says to Christ, “rule in the midst of Your enemies”. Christ, through the gospel brought by His apostles, ruled in Acts and continues to rule through this world now… in the midst of His enemies that He is overcoming.

4. “Your people will volunteer freely in the day of Your power” = What power? From “His rule” above, the power of the Gospel through which Christ has and is overcoming this world, people volunteer freely. This word is the Hebrew word almost exclusively related to the free-will offering of the Law. It is given free of compulsion. They give their lives to Christ through the power that God has given Christ through the power of the Gospel. They freely respond to His grace.

5. “In holy array” = ie, clothed in the righteousness of Christ.

6. “From the womb of the dawn” = ie, the dawning of the New Covenant… see Malachi 4:2 => Luke 1:77-79.

I’ll stick with what God’s Word teaches concerning salvation being 100% by the free grace of God and 0% by the fallen will of man, not your interpretation.

 

[KenH]

Ken I can understand your reticence to jettison a long held belief but for you to continue to deny the clear word of God is a great error on your part.

I am not going to jettison the gospel of Christ for the false gospel that you teach, one based on human effort and supposed human achievement.

Frankly, you should look to yourself and heed the warning of the apostle Paul in Galatians 1:8-9:

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

 

[KenH]

Jesus conquered sin and death.

For God's elect only - those whom God chose before the world began and gave to His Son to be their Surety, and to have their sins imputed(charged, credited) to Him, for which He paid their total sin debt, and to have Christ's perfect righteousness imputed(charged, credited) to them, and to have them come under the hearing of the gospel during their lifetime, and be regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and given the gift of faith in the finished work of Christ and the gift of repentance of the dead works in which they had previously trusted.

 

[Ben1445]

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

The Greek word here for “will draw” is ἕλκω which means “to drag”.

In John 21:11, the same Greek word is used, translated “drew”.

I don't think that the apostle Peter was pleading with the fish, "Come on in, fish. Please come on in." No, he dragged that net ashore himself with nothing contributed by the fish.

I was dragged to church as a kid too. That doesn’t mean I was dragged.
Why doesn’t anyone translate it “drag all men unto me” if that is what it really means?
You are translating from a concordance also.

 

[Psalty]

I’ll stick with what God’s Word teaches concerning salvation being 100% by the free grace of God and 0% by the fallen will of man, not your interpretation.

You should try understanding what it says. If you have a better exposition lets hear it.

So far all youve said is that you think God forces His will from that verse, but You haven't explained how “shall” is somehow irresistably caused by God in the text.

 

[Ben1445]

For God's elect only - those whom God chose before the world began and gave to His Son to be their Surety, and to have their sins imputed(charged, credited) to Him, for which He paid their total sin debt, and to have Christ's perfect righteousness imputed(charged, credited) to them, and to have them come under the hearing of the gospel during their lifetime, and be regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and given the gift of faith in the finished work of Christ and the gift of repentance of the dead works in which they had previously trusted.

It sounds good to you but it doesn’t agree with Scripture.

1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The whole world means the whole (entire, all, everything, all encompassing) world (in context, the people of the earth, not angels or animals or anything else that has not been offered salvation. Just people, all people, in all the world)

When you buy a whole box of something you expect everything to be there or you would say you did not get the whole thing.
Well, it doesn’t say Jesus saved the whole world, just that He made all men able to be saved by His propitiation of all sin. The only thing between them and salvation is their unbelief.
Unbelief is the one reason why Jesus does not work His work of salvation or any other work.

Matthew 13:58
And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

James 1:6-8
But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

 

[Psalty]

I was dragged to church as a kid too. That doesn’t mean I was dragged.
Why doesn’t anyone translate it “drag all men unto me” if that is what it really means?
You are translating from a concordance also.

“Draw” here in John is also used in the LXX in Jeremiah here:

Thus says the LORD,
“The people who survived the sword
Found grace in the wilderness⁠—
Israel, when it went to find its rest.”
The LORD appeared to him from afar, saying,
“I have loved you with an everlasting love;
Therefore I have drawn you with lovingkindness.
— Jeremiah 31:2-3

Nothing about compulsion enters into the use of “draw” here, only drawing by the appeal of Gods love for them….
… consequently, just like how He now draws through Jesus.

 

[Silverhair]

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

The Greek word here for “will draw” is ἕλκω which means “to drag”.

In John 21:11, the same Greek word is used, translated “drew”.

I don't think that the apostle Peter was pleading with the fish, "Come on in, fish. Please come on in." No, he dragged that net ashore himself with nothing contributed by the fish.

Ken you have to look at context and when you do you will see that your understanding of G1670 Helkúō as used in John 12:32 is wrong. It does not mean to drag but rather to draw.

Does God force people to come to Him? If you say yes then since He desires that all come to Him why have so many not done so? Is God not strong enough to accomplish His stated desire?

In this section we will be looking at the word “draw” G1670 as it is used in this context. “The Complete Word Study Series” by Zodhiates.
Draw G1670
"To draw toward without necessarily the notion of force as in súrō (G4951). ... Helkúō is used by Jesus of the drawing of souls unto Him (Joh_6:44; Joh_12:32, to draw or induce to come)."

One needs to understand the difference between using a word to describe purely physical interactions with inanimate objects like swords or nets or even people who are being physically overpowered, and interactions between persons in reference to their emotions, wills, and other spiritual components. That is why no translation has “drag” in Joh_6:44 or Joh_12:32, since “drag” does not fit the context. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament

The Analytical Lexicon to the Greek New Testament, states that helkuo is used metaphorically “to draw mentally and morally, Joh_6:44; Joh_12:32” [William Mounce, p. 180].

Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible by Calvinist Spiros Zodhiates, says, “Helkuo is used of Jesus on the cross drawing by His love, not force (Joh_6:44; Joh_12:32)” [New Testament Lexical Aids, p. 1831].

I am sure more reference works could be cited but is it necessary? I have not found any that defines draw as found in Joh_12:32 or Joh_6:44 as “compel or force.”

A search for G1670m in the NT will give you 8 matches

Joh_6:44, Joh_12:32, Joh_18:10, Joh_21:6, Joh_21:11, Act_16:19, Act_21:30 & Jas_2:6

In some draw is the correct understanding and drag in others.

 

[Silverhair]

It is not a matter of what I think it, it is what God’s Word teaches.

Then why do you disagree with what the word of God clearly teaches Ken?

ou are wrong in your description of me. The Holy Spirit, a member of the Godhead, is never wrong. I believe what God’s Word teaches.

But you have denied His word a number of times. What you hold to is the calvinsit version of God's word which as has been pointed out to you is error.

 

[Silverhair]

I am not going to jettison the gospel of Christ for the false gospel that you teach, one based on human effort and supposed human achievement.

Frankly, you should look to yourself and heed the warning of the apostle Paul in Galatians 1:8-9:

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Ken I would not ask you to jettison the gospel of Christ but I would caution you to look seriously at how a person is saved. You have fallen for the false DoG/TULIP that is not biblical.

You have continued to ignore the clear word of God. You are basing your salvation on the hope you were chosen before creation. You have to hope that the faith you say you were given is actually true.

Pro_21:2 All a man’s ways seem right to him, but the LORD weighs the heart.

God is the one who ultimately chooses and He chooses to save believers who are in union with His elect mediator, Jesus Christ. God chose to save believers in faith union with His Son before the foundation of the earth (Eph_1:4).

Consider this, if election / predestination is all settled before creation then salvation is like a lottery. You have to have your number come up or you are lost before you are born. What most people that hold this view will not admit is that even if you think you are one of the elect you can never be sure.

The problem with determinism is that all your thoughts and actions are scripted so you only think you are saved because you are determined to think that way but you could in fact be wrong.

If you say you are not a determinist then you have the free will with which to make real eternal impacting choices. I pray that you will think seriously about what you have been shown, your eternal destiny depends on it.

 

[Psalty]

1. “LORD said to my Lord” = God is saying to Jesus “Sit at the Fathers right hand until the Father makes Christ’s enemies His footstool”.

2. “The LORD will stretch form Your strong scepter” = God will stretch forth Christ’s rule (scepter) from Zion while Christ is seated at God’s right hand. = He did this in Acts, Christ’s reign stretched from Jerusalem to Rome. Christ is seated at God’s right hand now.

3. “Rule in the midst” = The Father says to Christ, “rule in the midst of Your enemies”. Christ, through the gospel brought by His apostles, ruled in Acts and continues to rule through this world now… in the midst of His enemies that He is overcoming.

4. “Your people will volunteer freely in the day of Your power” = What power? From “His rule” above, the power of the Gospel through which Christ has and is overcoming this world, people volunteer freely. This word is the Hebrew word almost exclusively related to the free-will offering of the Law. It is given free of compulsion. They give their lives to Christ through the power that God has given Christ through the power of the Gospel. They freely respond to His grace.

5. “In holy array” = ie, clothed in the righteousness of Christ.

6. “From the womb of the dawn” = ie, the dawning of the New Covenant… see Malachi 4:2 => Luke 1:77-79.

I will just add to this that this is the most quoted Psalm in the NT. Jesus quotes this about Himself, and so do many others on the first couple of verses of Psalm 110.
Matt 22:44, Mark 12:36, Luke 20:42
Acts 2:34
Heb 1:13
Heb 10:13