Don’t Be A Fundamentalist (Calvinist Or Otherwise)

[Iconoclast]

I may have misunderstood the article...I apologize for my rash comments.

Here was another article...


"Pastor J.D., Are You a Calvinist?" – Summit Life with J.D. Greear

No problem brother.... I understood both the larger issue being addressed, as well as your concerns with my comments/presuppositions.
I do not shrink back and like to think at the same time I am open to biblical correction.
As a member of several Calvinistic churches, and in others who do not hold the doctrine fully I have heard a wide range of concerns.
Errors can happen in either direction and in fact do.
Some who would like to think of themselves as somewhat Calvinistic...reserve the right to not fully hold to certain aspects of the teaching.
In trying so hard to be extra loving and concerned they go into compromise.
The non calls have emotional roadblocks that prevent them from being rational at times...so they become conflicted and go into attack mode 24/7.

 

[Jerome]

Maybe I misunderstood...The entire article, for me, made it seem as though he was a Calvinist trying to focus on a harmony within the Church.

Here was another article...

"Pastor J.D., Are You a Calvinist?" – Summit Life with J.D. Greear

Spirit-led Reformed Baptist, according to a much more recent audio interview he gave (Nov. 2017, three months ago), available on the The Gospel Coalition website:

The Gospel Coalition - A Conversation with J.D. Greear

@. 3:44

"Wayne Grudem, his Systematic Theology's got a great section in it. I wrote a book, I'm not trying to push that, it's probably not the best book out there on it, but it's called Jesus Continued, and the whole middle section is about the five ways that we see the Spirit of God speaking in the book of Acts and how this dynamic relationship really occurs and how you're supposed to sort of weight them out between what do you do when they're in conflict, and circumstances. But, I think those things will help. You know, one of the guys brought up, and I hope your audience will hear me very charitably on this. I remember having my ministry paradigm rocked two decades ago with Experiencing God by Henry Blackaby. Now, I think there are some things in that study that could be critiqued, but there was a sense of, 'I'm walking with God and not just out doing something for God." You start with the Reformed Baptist base and then learn from these other sources"

 

[JonShaff]

Spirit-led Reformed Baptist, according to a much more recent audio interview he gave (Nov. 2017, three months ago), available on the The Gospel Coalition website:

The Gospel Coalition - A Conversation with J.D. Greear

@. 3:44

"Wayne Grudem, his Systematic Theology's got a great section in it. I wrote a book, I'm not trying to push that, it's probably not the best book out there on it, but it's called Jesus Continued, and the whole middle section is about the five ways that we see the Spirit of God speaking in the book of Acts and how this dynamic relationship really occurs and how you're supposed to sort of weight them out between what do you do when they're in conflict, and circumstances. But, I think those things will help. You know, one of the guys brought up, and I hope your audience will hear me very charitably on this. I remember having my ministry paradigm rocked two decades ago with Experiencing God by Henry Blackaby. Now, I think there are some things in that study that could be critiqued, but there was a sense of, 'I'm walking with God and not just out doing something for God." You start with the Reformed Baptist base and then learn from these other sources"

Thank you for sharing...maybe my initial thoughts were correct...

 

[David Kent]

I have noticed that on this and other sites that is always someone attacking "Calvinists" that starts a post and never the other way round.

 

[Revmitchell]

Yes [Edit: demeaning language removed] (Calvinists) are always picked on. give me a break that is quite the delusion.

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes [Edit: demeaning language removed] (Calvinists) are always picked on. give me a break that is quite the delusion.

Another important post by RM.....

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Another important post by RM.....

 

[David Kent]

W

Yes [Edit: demeaning language removed] (Calvinists) are always picked on. give me a break that is quite the delusion.

Well I guess I must have been on the wrong sites.
I have been on sites where Calvinists are constantly denounced as heretics, worshipping another god. And say "Calvinists don't preach the gospel."
It is usually dispensationalists that say this, but they seem not to know that dispensationalism was 'a doctrine invented by Calvinists, Edward Irving, John Darby, Scofield.
It was mainly confined to Darby's Plymouth Brethren, and Irving's followers, known as the Catholic Apostolic Church, until it came back from the USA after the Scofield bible was published.

 

[Van]

Here is a snippet from the linked article, Am I a Calvinist?

The “priority” of God’s work in salvation. The Bible teaches that no person can come to God unless Jesus first works in him. Our own hearts are naturally so dark and hard that they hate God rather than love him. It takes a work of God’s grace in us before we desire to know God. How that happens and what role our cooperation plays in that are things we might disagree on. But we must agree that God’s work must come before we can choose him (John 1:13, John 6:44, Philippians 2:13).

First, let's consider "no person can come to God." What does that mean? To come to God might mean to come to agree with God's teachings. OTOH, it might mean to be transferred into Christ, to be baptized into Christ, to be put in Christ by God. Did the article indicate which of the two meanings was in view? Nope.

Next, what is the meaning of "Jesus first works in him." Does that mean alter and enable a person via a form of grace? Or does it mean hearing and understanding the gospel of Christ? I think the first meaning (whether the enabling grace is irresistible or prevenient is not explained.)

Next it is asserted our hearts are so "dark and hard" that they hate God. And the implication is that the unsaved hate God all the time and thus would never at any time seek God or His salvation through Christ. Of course the opposite is what is taught in scripture, God has to harden hearts to prevent people from hearing the gospel and being healed. See Romans 11.

Lastly, three verses are cited as if they support the premise that we must be altered and enabled before we can receive the gospel.But of course none of the verses address the issue. John 1:13 says we are born by the will of God. But it does not say why God chooses to save the individuals in view. That is taught in the verse above, those that received Him, that believed in His name. Then we get John 6:44 which says we must be drawn by the Father to come to Jesus. But the meaning of "drawn" is not explained, with Calvinists defining the term as meaning compelled by irresistible grace, and none Calvinists saying it means to be attracted by the lovingkindness of God as when Jesus died for us. And of course Philippians 2:13 refers to the work of our indwelt Holy Spirit after (and not before) we were saved. So non-germane.

Bottom line, we must study God's word and discern its truth, without looking at it through a prism of ambiguity or presupposition. It takes critical thinking and not regurgitation of mumbo jumbo.

 

[Yeshua1]

Here is a snippet from the linked article, Am I a Calvinist?


First, let's consider "no person can come to God." What does that mean? To come to God might mean to come to agree with God's teachings. OTOH, it might mean to be transferred into Christ, to be baptized into Christ, to be put in Christ by God. Did the article indicate which of the two meanings was in view? Nope.

Next, what is the meaning of "Jesus first works in him." Does that mean alter and enable a person via a form of grace? Or does it mean hearing and understanding the gospel of Christ? I think the first meaning (whether the enabling grace is irresistible or prevenient is not explained.)

Next it is asserted our hearts are so "dark and hard" that they hate God. And the implication is that the unsaved hate God all the time and thus would never at any time seek God or His salvation through Christ. Of course the opposite is what is taught in scripture, God has to harden hearts to prevent people from hearing the gospel and being healed. See Romans 11.

Lastly, three verses are cited as if they support the premise that we must be altered and enabled before we can receive the gospel.But of course none of the verses address the issue. John 1:13 says we are born by the will of God. But it does not say why God chooses to save the individuals in view. That is taught in the verse above, those that received Him, that believed in His name. Then we get John 6:44 which says we must be drawn by the Father to come to Jesus. But the meaning of "drawn" is not explained, with Calvinists defining the term as meaning compelled by irresistible grace, and none Calvinists saying it means to be attracted by the lovingkindness of God as when Jesus died for us. And of course Philippians 2:13 refers to the work of our indwelt Holy Spirit after (and not before) we were saved. So non-germane.

Bottom line, we must study God's word and discern its truth, without looking at it through a prism of ambiguity or presupposition. It takes critical thinking and not regurgitation of mumbo jumbo.

Paul and Isaiah both agreed that none of us here woul have ever even sought to get saved apart from God first sending the Holy Spirit to us for that, do you agree with them?

 

[Van]

Yeshua1, both Paul and Isaiah agreed with me over and against you. Why do some posters post assertions without references? Obfuscation without truth? Why do some posts post questions, but do not answer questions? Apparently they think that do unto others thing does not apply to them!!

What did he mean by "come to me?"
What did he mean by "work in me?"
Did he think no one ever seeks God, even those in Matthew 23:13?

 

[Yeshua1]

Yeshua1, both Paul and Isaiah agreed with me over and against you. Why do some posters post assertions without references? Obfuscation without truth? Why do some posts post questions, but do not answer questions? Apparently they think that do unto others thing does not apply to them!!

What did he mean by "come to me?"
What did he mean by "work in me?"
Did he think no one ever seeks God, even those in Matthew 23:13?

I think that both o them would be very amused by how you are using them to try to support your interesting ideas....

 

[Yeshua1]

Yeshua1, both Paul and Isaiah agreed with me over and against you. Why do some posters post assertions without references? Obfuscation without truth? Why do some posts post questions, but do not answer questions? Apparently they think that do unto others thing does not apply to them!!

What did he mean by "come to me?"
What did he mean by "work in me?"
Did he think no one ever seeks God, even those in Matthew 23:13?

I think also that those who are not one of His own, not one of His sheep, will turn and run away and stay in the dark.

 

[Van]

I think also that those who are not one of His own, not one of His sheep, will turn and run away and stay in the dark.

[Edit] He seems to have no idea whether come to Him refers to doctrinal agreement or positional sanctification. No answer as to how people could be entering heaven if they were not enabled by irresistible grace.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

......J. D. Greer is a Calvinist.....

You clearly read this with presuppositions and a bias, to the point it skewed your comprehension. This is very telling.

YUPP!!!!

Greear is awesome, a treasure-trove of wisdom in the S.B.C....specifically as it relates to Church Revitalization.
and yes...he's a Calvinist.

 

[Yeshua1]

And yet more obfuscation, more nonsense and no answer to any questions. He seems to have no idea whether come to Him refers to doctrinal agreement or positional sanctification. No answer as to how people could be entering heaven if they were not enabled by irresistible grace.

ALL those whom the father have given to Jesus to get save shall be eternal secured in Him!

 

[Van]

ALL those whom the father have given to Jesus to get save shall be eternal secured in Him!

[Edit]
1. What did "come to Me" mean, to come into agreement with Christ's teachings, or change location from outside of Christ to inside Christ? Answer the question..

 

[Yeshua1]

[Edit]
1. What did "come to Me" mean, to come into agreement with Christ's teachings, or change location from outside of Christ to inside Christ? Answer the question..

The moment on conversion is when the Holy Spirit took and put me in union with Christ, as in the Body of Christ. Coming to Jesus to get saved is also the exclusive work of the Holy Spirit, as NONE come unto Jesus unless enabled to by the Spirit first!

 

[Van]

The moment on conversion is when the Holy Spirit took and put me in union with Christ, as in the Body of Christ. Coming to Jesus to get saved is also the exclusive work of the Holy Spirit, as NONE come unto Jesus unless enabled to by the Spirit first!

You do realize you did not answer the question? [Edit: demeaning language] What did "come to Me" mean, to come into agreement with Christ's teachings, or change location from outside of Christ to inside Christ?

[Edit: demeaning language]

 

[Yeshua1]

You do realize you did not answer the question? [Edit: demeaning language] What did "come to Me" mean, to come into agreement with Christ's teachings, or change location from outside of Christ to inside Christ?

[Edit: demeaning language]

To willing to even get saved is coming to Christ, and that can only happen due to the very will and power of God!