Doth God pervert judgment? or doth the Almighty pervert justice? (Job 8:3)

[BobRyan]

The Godly - unslefish, selfless, unconditionally loving parent peeks over the ramparts of heaven to see his precious daughter writhing in agonies of hell and rushes to His loving God and savior asking "Oh My Great God and Savior!! Couldn't you have done SOMETHING??"

BobRyan:
And of course the answer will come back that Calvinism so loves to hear - "Why of course I COULD - IF I had Cared to"!

Will that selfless loving parent says "WELL good as long as it is NOT ME"??

Calvinists think he will say --

KenH

Hallelujah! Let us rejoice! God did!

Calvinist will tell us that this horrific scenario is their "Gospel" about "arbitrary selection" and uncaring concern for the lost.

Ken
He has given us the gospel message. Let us place our eternal destiny in His hands, and His hands alone - not in our "free will", not in what we think we can do.

Calvinist will tell us that you CAN not repent unless Christ draws you , And contrary to His Word Christ DOES NOT draw ALL mankind unto Him (John 12:32) - so then those who DO Repent - CAN ONLY be the arbitrarily selected FEW of Matt 7.

Ken
Anyone who repents and believes will be saved. Come to Christ Jesus, call on Him, and welcome to all who come!

And of course in Ken's - post-millenial view - it is not known why Christ chooses the term "FEW" to describe that group as contrasted to the "MANY" that Christ says are lost. But that is another story.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
it is not known why Christ chooses the term "FEW" to describe that group as contrasted to the "MANY" that Christ says are lost. But that is another story.

I am sorry that it is not sufficient for you that God's Word says that God has chosen a multitude from all over the earth that no man can number.

I am also sorry that you have such an animosity toward God's free grace and the definite salvation He has provided. I wish you well if you wish to obtain salvation by your own unregenerated "free will". But I fear for the result.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

[Bible-belted]

"Again, i have no problems with most of what you say."

Wow. You mean I'm stil making sense??

"I really appreciate your taking the time to respond and share with me. You do not portray Calvinism in the same way as most that i have talked to. There are members of my Church that follow me on this board. On another board that i am on, one of my churchmen snuck in unawares and worked me over...."

That may be because I didn't get Calvanism from a systematics book, nor have a I read any apologetic materials promoting Calvanism. I actually got to this point in theology from studying Roamsn from the Greek for over a year. Biblical theology (the discipline of).

One last question.

"Do you have scriptures that indicate/defferentiate between general grace and efficacious grace???"

Well, that there is a general call to salvation is undeniable. Matt 11:28 and Is. 45:22 come to mind.

Now Matt. 22:14 speaks both of calling and of choosing. Many are called and few are chosen. It is held that the chosen are those receiving the effectual call.

We also have examples of Jesus offering a special invitations, most obviously the choosing of the disciples themselves.

Perhaps though the words of G.E. Ladd are most helpful. In his comments on 1Co. 2:6-16 he says:

"the first work of the Spirit is toenable men to understand the divine work of redemption... This [the cross] was an event whose meaning was folly to Greeks and an offense to Jews. but to those enlightened by the Spirit it is the wisdom of God. In other words, Paul recognises a hidden meaning in the historical event of the death of Christ ("God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself," IICor. 5:19) that is nt evident to the human eye but which can be accepted only by a supernatural illumination. The Spirit does not reveal heavenly realities but the true meaning of the historical event. He does not import some kind of "gnostic" esoteric truth but the real meaning of an event in history. Only by the illumination of the Spirit can men understadthe meaning f the cross; only by the Spirit can men therefore confess that Jesus who was executed is also Lord (1Cor. 12:3). (From Ladd, "A Theology of the New Testament", Eerdmans, 1974, pp.490,491)

What Ladd calls "supernatural illumination" is what is meant by the effectual call.

Thanks for the exchange Chappie.

Let's do it again some time.

 

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
What is not being taken into account in this discussion on election is that the issue of man's status after the Fall is not being taken into account. The apostle Paul stated that man is dead in trepasses and sins. Christ Jesus stated that no man can come to Him unless he is enabled to do so by God the Father and all of those that are enabled by God the Father will be raised to eternal life.

So until, and unless, the Biblical doctrine of man's inability is refuted, any attempt to refute the Biblical doctrine of unconditional election is pointless.

Unless the non-Calvinist can defeat the "T", it is pointless for him to argue against the "U", the "L", the "I", and the "P".

Ken
A Spurgeonite

I agree, the U.L.I & P are the result of erroneous understanding of the "T". If you intreprit the "T" correctly, the ULIP will fall like a house of cards...
Chappie
A Christian

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Chappie:
If you intrepret the "T" correctly, the ULIP will fall like a house of cards

I agree that both the Calvinistic and non-Calvinistic systems of soteriology hang on the correct Biblical understanding of the "T". If the Calvinistic understanding of soteriology is correct, then the "T" is correct and the rest of the acronym also is correct. If the non-Calvinistic understanding of soteriology is correct, then the "T" is incorrect and the rest of the ancronym is also incorrect.

The fate of my soul rests in the fact that the Calvinistic understanding is correct, therefore the rest of the acronym is also correct.

And I sleep well knowing that.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

[ September 29, 2002, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

[BobRyan]

Bob
Originally posted by BobRyan:
it is not known why Christ chooses the term "FEW" to describe that group as contrasted to the "MANY" that Christ says are lost. But that is another story.

Ken
I am sorry that it is not sufficient for you that God's Word says that God has chosen a multitude from all over the earth that no man can number.

The quote from Rev 7 that you refer to - does not answer the point above about Matt7. An exegetical based review of the two chapters shows that Matt 7 is "contrasting" the relative sizes of the groups, while Rev 7 is dealing only with the One group saying that it is indeed a large group. But when that large group is specifically "Contrasted" with those who are lost - the lost are "the MANY" in Matt 7, and the large group of Rev 7 are "by comparison" the "Few".

Ken
I am also sorry that you have such an animosity toward God's free grace and the definite salvation He has provided.

Being willing to admit that Christ judges them to be "few" by way of contrast in Matt 7 - does not "seem" like "animosity" to me. How do you get to that point?

Ken
I wish you well if you wish to obtain salvation by your own unregenerated "free will". But I fear for the result.

I find it hard to believe that the only alternative ot Calvinism - is NOT Arminianism - but rather the works system you have described above. I would have thought Arminianism would have been the first choice of an alternative to Calvinisms description of an arbitrary and capricious god.

In Christ,

Bob

[ September 30, 2002, 08:38 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

[BobRyan]

Ken
The apostle Paul stated that man is dead in trepasses and sins. Christ Jesus stated that no man can come to Him unless he is enabled to do so by God the Father and all of those that are enabled by God the Father will be raised to eternal life.

So until, and unless, the Biblical doctrine of man's inability is refuted, any attempt to refute the Biblical doctrine of unconditional election is pointless.

Calvinism can only reach that conclusion by first ignoring/deleting/re-writing Christ's OWN claim that He supernaturally "Draws ALL MEN unto ME" John 12:32..

Calvinism "Admits" that "such drawing" does more than compensate for the "problems of T" - and so they "limit it" to just the saints - INSTEAD of the "ALL mankind" that Christ specifies.

The Arminian position ALSO AGREES that the "Drawing" is done supernaturaly By God and "MORE than compensates for the problem of T- Total depravity".

The debate (in my view) is NOT whether total depravity is that Romans 8:4-7 thing that it is. Total depravity is established and agreed upon.

Rather the debate centers on the supernatural "DRAWING of God" John 12:32 that BOTH Calvinism and Arminianism AGREE is sufficient to compensate - that is in question - because Calvinism wants to Change it from "ALL MANKIND" to "Some-Arbitrarily-Selected-FEW of Matt7".

We might as well put the spotlight on that real source of difference.

In Christ,

Bob

[ September 30, 2002, 08:40 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
The debate (in my view) is NOT whether total depravity is that Romans 8:4-7 thing that it is. Total depravity is established and agreed upon.

I disagree. Calvinists teach that the Fall resulted in man dying spiritually. Non-Calvinists teach that the Fall only injured man spiritually.

Calvinists teach that God never fails to save one whom He seeks to save. Non-Calvinists teach that God indeed does fail to save some of those whom He seeks to save, even failing more than He succeeds.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Chappie:
If you intrepret the "T" correctly, the ULIP will fall like a house of cards

I agree that both the Calvinistic and non-Calvinistic systems of soteriology hang on the correct Biblical understanding of the "T". If the Calvinistic understanding of soteriology is correct, then the "T" is correct and the rest of the acronym also is correct. If the non-Calvinistic understanding of soteriology is correct, then the "T" is incorrect and the rest of the ancronym is also incorrect.

The fate of my soul rests in the fact that the Calvinistic understanding is correct, therefore the rest of the acronym is also correct.

And I sleep well knowing that.

Ken
A Spurgeonite</font>[/QUOTE]Not willing to trust the fate of my soul to anyone or anything save my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. There will be no acronym to compete with my love for Christ, no, not in my life...

The "T" in tulip is not without biblical support, but that support ends scripturally long before it reaches the extremes in application that it is taken to in Calvinist intrepretation. If i had to trust my soul to that intrepretation, i would not be able to sleep a wink for the rest of my life without having bad dreams.

Absolutely, positively no scripture in the bible with my name in it to asure me of my salvation under this election miconception. Think i wll stick with John 3:16 and Romans 10:9&10. Aaaah! Now I can rest. Got on th helmet of salvation.

And God is "Still" loving, kind, mercyful and "JUST".
Sweet dreams.
Chappie
A Christian....

[ September 29, 2002, 10:28 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]

 

[Ray Berrian]

Ken Hamilton,

I as one Arminian also believe with Calvinists that ' . . . sin reigned unto death . . . ' [Romans 5:21a]. We as sinners are as dead as a 'door nail,' but the mighty power of the Holy Spirit convicts and convinces the unbeliever of his or her need of Christ. We are not so depraved that we cannot hear His calling through the Gospel.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Ken Hamilton,

Yes, we do affirm the reality that the majority reject the calling of the Holy Spirit in the matter of the ‘new birth.' Part of the disparity about so many turning from Him is found in the fact that ‘Satan is the god of this world' and holds great sway in the hearts/lives of human beings. Also, God says in I John 5:19b that ‘ . . . the whole world lieth in wickedness.' Another key factor is not only the deception of the Devil but the depravity of the human heart through the Fall.

Some Christians wrongfully think that there will be a majority harvest of souls at the end of the age. If they were correct Jesus would have said, "Fear not, vast flock; for it is you Father's good pleasure to give you the Kingdom." What Jesus indeed did say, however, was ‘Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the Kingdom.

Does not the Word say, that ‘many' will go into destruction? Did not Jesus say that only a ‘few' will find the way to ‘life?' [Matthew 7:13-14].

In comparison to all of human kind, only the 'few' will find everlasting life.

 

[Bible-belted]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Ken Hamilton,

I as one Arminian also believe with Calvinists that ' . . . sin reigned unto death . . . ' [Romans 5:21a]. We as sinners are as dead as a 'door nail,' but the mighty power of the Holy Spirit convicts and convinces the unbeliever of his or her need of Christ. We are not so depraved that we cannot hear His calling through the Gospel.

Almost got it right Ray!

You should say:

"We as sinners are as dead as a 'door nail,' but the mighty power of the Holy Spirit convicts and convinces the unbeliever of his or her need of Christ through an effectual call. We are so depraved that we cannot hear His calling through the Gospel apart from that special act of the Spirit."

I mean, let's be real here: when was the last time you saw a corpse react to anything?

 

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by Latreia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Ken Hamilton,

I as one Arminian also believe with Calvinists that ' . . . sin reigned unto death . . . ' [Romans 5:21a]. We as sinners are as dead as a 'door nail,' but the mighty power of the Holy Spirit convicts and convinces the unbeliever of his or her need of Christ. We are not so depraved that we cannot hear His calling through the Gospel.

Almost got it right Ray!

You should say:

"We as sinners are as dead as a 'door nail,' but the mighty power of the Holy Spirit convicts and convinces the unbeliever of his or her need of Christ through an effectual call. We are so depraved that we cannot hear His calling through the Gospel apart from that special act of the Spirit."

I mean, let's be real here: when was the last time you saw a corpse react to anything?</font>[/QUOTE]I say, continue to tell the truth, and let the chips fall where they may....

Finally brethern, the death spoken of here is not the one that produces a corpse, we are talking about the one that results in seperation from God. It's a spiritual thing.

Ever seen a spiritually dead man react to anything? No!!! I have. They are constantly up to something...

[ October 01, 2002, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: Chappie ]

 

[ForumChaplain]

Back to the basics.....
Does God pervert his sense of justice in order to save a fewelect?????

 

[Bible-belted]

Originally posted by Chappie:
Back to the basics.....
Does God pervert his sense of justice in order to save a fewelect?????

I don't see how.

Can you explain what you think Giod's sense of justice is and exctly how God's saving only a few is a perversion of that?

For that matter, could you please explain how God allowing ANYONE to not be saved is not a perversion of HIs justice?

 

[Ray Berrian]

God is just/fair and does not rule anyone out nor does He forbid them grace. That's why people call it free grace. Plus, it is purchased by God Himself. [John 3:16]