Double free will and other problems

[IndpndntBptst]

"Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel." (Psalms 78:41)

According to Calvinism, God cannot be limited. God is sovereign, but He has sovereignly purposed that "he that beliveth not shall be damned" (Mark 16:16). God created man with a will to make choices. He did not create robots, but human beings. No, I do not believe in "the age of accountability" because I believe that babies are conceived in sin. They go to heaven, not because of "infantile purity," but because of the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. Mr. Calvin, however, was of a different persuasion when he wrote, "I inquire again, how it come to pass that the fall of Adam, independent of any remedy, should involve so many nations with their infant children in eternal death, but because such was the will of God. Their tongues so loquacious on every other point, must here be struck dumb. It is an awful decree, I confess; but no one can deny that God foreknew the future final fate of man before he created him, and that he did foreknow it because it was appointed by his own decreee." If each one of our Calvinists have the authority to fabricate your own version of Calvinism, I have the liberty to reject it all. John Wesley wrote of a truth, "Sing, O hell, and rejoice ye that are under the earth. For God, even the mighty God, hath spoken and doomed to death thousands of souls, from the rising of the sun to the going down thereof. Here, O death, is thy sting. They shall not, cannot escape. For the mouth of the Lord hath spoken. Here, O grave, is thy victory. Nations yet unborn, or even they had done good or evil, are doomed to never see the light of life, but thou shalt gnaw upon them for ever and ever. Let all those morning stars sing together who fell with Lucifer, sun of the morning. Let all the sons of hell shout for joy. For the decree is past and who shall disannul it." Chareles Wesley wrote, "O Horrible Decree,
Worthy of whence it came! Forgive their hellish blasphemy, Who charge it on the Lamb! God, ever merciful and just, With newborn babes did Tophet fill; Down into endless torments thrust; Merely to show His sovereign will. This is that Horrible Decree! This is that wisdom from beneath! God (O detest the blasphemy!) Hath pleasure in the sinner’s death."

[ January 27, 2003, 11:39 PM: Message edited by: IndpndntBptst ]

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by IndpndntBptst:
"Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel." (Psalms 78:41)

The problem is that you're using the KJV. The Hebrew word is "scraped", "troubled" or "pained", not "limited".

The NIV translates this:

"Again and again they put God to the test;
they vexed the Holy One of Israel."

Also, in 1 Samuel 21:13, it is translated as "scratched": "So he changed his behavior before them, pretended madness in their hands, scratched on the doors of the gate, and let his saliva fall down on his beard."

I don't think he limited on the doors.

 

[IndpndntBptst]

Your interpretatio of Psalms 78:41 is more rediculous than the kJV rendering. In other words God vexed Himself? After all, He predestinated it to happen.

 

[Yelsew]

John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. The word is "helkuo", to drag off, or to impel.

[John 12:32] And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

[John 12:32] And I, if <ean> I be lifted <hupsoo> up from the earth <ge>, will draw <helkuo> all <pas> men unto me.

Same author, Same word, quoting the same speaker. Yet your meaning is different than that of the speaker. I wonder who is wrong!

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />[John 12:32] And I, if &lt;ean&gt; I be lifted &lt;hupsoo&gt; up from the earth &lt;ge&gt;, will draw &lt;helkuo&gt; all &lt;pas&gt; men unto me.

Same author, Same word, quoting the same speaker. Yet your meaning is different than that of the speaker. I wonder who is wrong!</font>[/QUOTE]If you kept reading, you'd have found out who is wrong. I noticed you left out any word after "pas". I wonder why?

[ January 28, 2003, 12:04 AM: Message edited by: npetreley ]

 

[Yelsew]

John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. The word is "helkuo", to drag off, or to impel.
quote:[John 12:32] And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

[John 12:32] And I, if &lt;ean&gt; I be lifted &lt;hupsoo&gt; up from the earth &lt;ge&gt;, will draw &lt;helkuo&gt; all &lt;pas&gt; men unto me.Same author, Same word, quoting the same speaker. Yet your meaning is different than that of the speaker. I wonder who is wrong!

Well if the two uses of the same word mean different things, I certainly cannot see it. So that would mean that the Father and the Son "drags off" people. This is what the image was in the movie "Ghost" when the bad guys were dragged off by the dark spirit beings who made ghoulish sounds.

But I rather suspect that the other meaning, IMPEL, which means to be attracted and physically moved (sucked) toward, drawn-in towards, that which impels, as opposed to being pushed toward.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Well if the two uses of the same word mean different things, I certainly cannot see it.

They don't mean different things. What you cannot see is the additional word that doesn't belong there.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Then why all the talk of predetermination of "the elect". God opened heaven for all not just an elect. Therefore all who believe God's Son Jesus become the elect by virtue of belief which is exercise of human free will.

Like it or not, that is what God says.

The problem is that election took place before the foundation of the world, when as yet there were not people, much less belief by people. If no one can become elect without believing, then how is election something that took place before the foundation of the world. That is what God said (Eph 1:4; 2 tHESS 2:13).

Furthermore, God did not open heaven for all but he opens it only for those who believe. The reality is that every single one of your "proof texts" are easily explained by what I believe. You however cannot explain the texts that contradict you. You end up with inherent contradictions, such as the one shown above.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Same author, Same word, quoting the same speaker. Yet your meaning is different than that of the speaker. I wonder who is wrong!

Neither ... try "context." I tell my mother I love her; I tell my wife I love her. Same word; same author. But they have a different referent. See how easy common sense is??

John 12 is in a context about Greeks vs. Jews and the point of Christ, in refusing to speak to teh Greeks is that when he is lifted up, he will draw all kinds of men (the meaning of pas there), including not only Jews but Greeks also.

[ January 28, 2003, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
John 12 is in a context about Greeks vs. Jews and the point of Christ, in refusing to speak to teh Greeks is that when he is lifted up, he will draw all kinds of men (the meaning of pas there), including not only Jews but Greeks also.

Thank you, Pastor Larry.

IMO, that's why only "all" is there, and not "all men". If Jesus were referring to "all mankind", He would have said so. But both the context and the wording imply otherwise.

 

[Yelsew]

"Draw him" vs "Draw all". The only difference is measure of inclusion, the quantity, being drawn.
The source of both "draws" is God, thus NO DIFFERENCE!.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
"Draw him" vs "Draw all". The only difference is measure of inclusion, the quantity, being drawn.
The source of both "draws" is God, thus NO DIFFERENCE!.

That is a great point and you are absolutely right this far. But where you fail is that you have not properly dealt with the object of "draw." In John 6, it is "him" (an individual) and it results in coming. In John 12, it is "all" (a group) and refers to national/ethnic distinctions as is clear from the context. There is no difference in the "draw." The difference is the object and the context.

 

[Yelsew]

That is a great point and you are absolutely right this far. But where you fail is that you have not properly dealt with the object of "draw." In John 6, it is "him" (an individual) and it results in coming. In John 12, it is "all" (a group) and refers to national/ethnic distinctions as is clear from the context. There is no difference in the "draw." The difference is the object and the context.

In "All" there is no nationality or ethnicity, because there are no modifiers that so indicate all jews, all anglos, all blacks, all purples,..."All" stands alone to be all inclusive.

[quoteJhn 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
Jhn 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.[/quote]

In John 6, Draw is used with "no man", meaning "not one out of all men"; "No man, not one out of all, can come to me lest the father draw him."

let me add
John 6:44-47 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. 46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. 47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Simply amazing how Jesus refutes "election" by saying that every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the father, cometh unto me." Learn of God=Come to Jesus. It does not say that all who come, stay. Those who learn of, about, or from God, are drawn to Jesus. Any out of all!

[ January 28, 2003, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
In "All" there is no nationality or ethnicity, because there are no modifiers that so indicate all jews, all anglos, all blacks, all purples,..."All" stands alone to be all inclusive.

Right! That is why it is more correctly translated in thne NKJV as...

"32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."

Not all Jews, not all Gentiles, not all men, but all peoples. Keep reading after that and you'll see the larger context, too.

[ January 28, 2003, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: npetreley ]

 

[Yelsew]

Ya, you're right, Those who came to Jesus exercised their free will and did not believe, and even those who did believe were afraid of losing their jobs, so they did not confess him. Even so, Jesus went on to invite any and all who would, to walk in the light and declared that He is the light they should walk in.

That is a tough idea to grasp, here's this homey looking "commoner" declaring Himself to be the savior of the world. And that was not an uncommon thing, for many preceded, and followed him in declaring they are leaders to a new way and that all should follow them. However, none could make the claims that Jesus made because they were not eternal God. So then here's another wannabe who talks differely than the others. Look folks, we have the very same thing happening today, with a significant amount of it happening under the auspices of "church". Jesus was and truly is different than all the others, Jesus is worth hearing and believing and following to the uttermost parts of the world.

One must also remember that in order to have a "times of the Gentiles", the Jews had to be closed to the Gospel, and closed to who Jesus is. Also remember that the Jews were looking for a knight in shining armor Messiah to free them from their oppression. So there is much to consider in the "context" It might have been better for the Jews if Jesus had arrived riding a white horse wielding a sword. But he didn't so we must deal with what did happen and not what someone wants to happen.

The bottom line for this topic is that Jesus invites any from all who will believe in Him. The door to heaven is open to all mankind, any from all, who will believe in Jesus, the son of God.

Prayer may be the key to heaven, but faith unlocks the door. Have faith when you speak to the Master, he wants to hear from you, no matter who you are!

[ January 28, 2003, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
In "All" there is no nationality or ethnicity, because there are no modifiers that so indicate all jews, all anglos, all blacks, all purples,..."All" stands alone to be all inclusive.

Which is the point of John 12 ... there will no longer be national considerations (Jews vs. Gentiles). Now men of all nations and nationalities will be drawn.

In John 6, Draw is used with "no man", meaning "not one out of all men"; "No man, not one out of all, can come to me lest the father draw him."

Right so far.

Simply amazing how Jesus refutes "election" by saying that every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the father, cometh unto me." Learn of God=Come to Jesus. It does not say that all who come, stay. Those who learn of, about, or from God, are drawn to Jesus. Any out of all!

Here is where you slaughtered the text. All who hear and learn will come. Who are they?? The ones who are drawn. You are mutilating the words of Jesus here. He says in v. 44 that no one can come unless drawn and the ones drawn (closest antecedent) will be raised up at the last day. V. 45 enlarges on that teaching by showing how the drawing involves hearing and learning.

Consider John 8:43 where some could not hear. It doesn't refer to their physical ability to hear but to their spiritual understanding. They heard it with their ears but they did not grasp the significance of it. Were they drawn? Hardly.

You are isolating certain texts without reference for the context. That leads to faulty understanding.

 

[IndpndntBptst]

In Matthew 11:29, Jesus commands us to come to Him and learn of Him. Those who follow the drawing of God and incline their ear to God, being enabled by His drawing, will come.

"Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David." (Isaiah 55:3)

Notice, the hearing came before the covenant was made. We do not hear because we are already in the covenant, but we hear in order to take part in that covenant.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by IndpndntBptst:
In Matthew 11:29, Jesus commands us to come to Him and learn of Him. Those who follow the drawing of God and incline their ear to God, being enabled by His drawing, will come.

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. 26Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.

Given the above, you're going to have a hard time defending the idea that the rest of this (including 11:29) means Jesus is calling upon everyone to decide what to do of their own free will.

27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. 28Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

 

[Ray Berrian]

The red star portion that Calvinists attempt to exegete is Romans chapter nine.

God speaking through the Apostle Paul indicates that the Gentiles have obtained His righteousness by faith. [Romans 9:30] The next verse points out that the Israelites even under this era of grace still try to obtain His righteousness by keeping the 'law of righteousness.' John 1:17 directs us to the truth that the Law was given by Moses, but grace and truth have come by Jesus Christ.

The Greek uses these words, 'Why? Because not of faith but as of works . . . ' {vs. 32} 'Wherefore? Because they sought it (righteouness) not by faith, but as it were by the stumbling at that stumblingstone . . . ' The Jewish people tried to obtain His righteousness after their tradition and father's teaching of the Law and ordinances.

(vs.33) 'As it is written, Behold, I lay in Zion a stumblingstone and rock of offence; and whosoever believeth on Him shall not be ashamed.' This new and better way into grace, by faith, was an impediment to understanding and belief in Christ the Rock.

' . . . and whosoever believeth on Him shall not be ashamed.' If believing in Jesus was an autocratic selection by the sovereign God, He would have deleted the {whosoever}. On the contrary, God suggests that those who understand the way to God and believe (pisteuo) {present active participle} suggests that the one who continues to believe in Jesus Christ will not be ashamed. The idea of ashamed is interesting; it means the person will not be disgraced or dishonored by Almighty God.

In other words, Anyone who keeps on believing in Christ will not be dishonored. Those who have faith in Him will be honored and will receive His grace.

The latter words of truth in Romans nine is not a contradiction of the former part of Romans chapter nine.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
' . . . and whosoever believeth on Him shall not be ashamed.' If believing in Jesus was an autocratic selection by the sovereign God, He would have deleted the {whosoever}.

Why? It makes sense either way.

Two planes leave the runway. Whichever one (whosoever) keeps on going to New York will get to New York. That's true whether I gave different flight plans to the different planes (one to Los Angeles, the other to New York) or gave them both the choice to go wherever they wanted to go. So I don't see your point.

[ January 29, 2003, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: npetreley ]