Double free will and other problems

[Ray Berrian]

npetreley,

I kind of thought your modern day parable of planes was not talking about what I wrote. Are you a pilot?

I am saying that God in Romans 9:33 opens the Gospel and salvation in an all-inclusive manner. 'Whoever believes in Him will not be ashamed.' (perish in Hell) And if God, through the Apostle Paul means what he is saying, then Almighty God would not be trying to tell us about sovereign election to Heaven and Hell in the earlier portions of Romans nine.

There is obviously an elect group made fit for Heaven; they are those who trust in Jesus saving benefits on the Cross. God has always known these people, both the lost and saved ones.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
I am saying that God in Romans 9:33 opens the Gospel and salvation in an all-inclusive manner. 'Whoever believes in Him will not be ashamed.' (perish in Hell) And if God, through the Apostle Paul means what he is saying, then Almighty God would not be trying to tell us about sovereign election to Heaven and Hell in the earlier portions of Romans nine.

I know what you are saying abut opening the Gospel in an all-inclusive manner. What I don't understand is why you think the word "whosoever" has anything to do with it. The word makes perfect sense in this context whether or not your view is correct.

 

[Yelsew]

Which is the point of John 12 ... there will no longer be national considerations (Jews vs. Gentiles). Now men of all nations and nationalities will be drawn.

And of course, this change was from the foundation of the world. What about all the gentiles BC? Are none of them going to be in Heaven? Are none of them righteous? Were there none faithful among them?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
And of course, this change was from the foundation of the world. What about all the gentiles BC? Are none of them going to be in Heaven? Are none of them righteous? Were there none faithful among them?

Yes, the mystery was hidden in ages past but now revealed (Col 1:26-27; Eph 3). There Gentiles BC who converted to Israel's faith. They became a proselyte. So they will be in heaven.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
If believing in Jesus was an autocratic selection by the sovereign God, He would have deleted the {whosoever}.

Again, I marvel at how you know what God "would have said" if he had meant something. The reality is that "whosoever believes" does not contradict Calvinism but is indeed exactly what Calvinism teaches. It is not an autocratic selection. It is a gracious choice by God. That is why we prefer that you use biblical terms ... because it is what God actually said instead of what he "would have said."

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
There is obviously an elect group made fit for Heaven; they are those who trust in Jesus saving benefits on the Cross.

But you have yet to prove your position from Scripture, that election is the result of belief. Why don't you show us the verse that proves what you are talking about? We have shown you a number of places where belief is said to be the result of election and that is indeed the biblical position. The reason you don't show us Scripture to support your position is because you don't have any.

 

[Yelsew]

Yes, the mystery was hidden in ages past but now revealed (Col 1:26-27; Eph 3). There Gentiles BC who converted to Israel's faith. They became a proselyte. So they will be in heaven.

So Before Christ, conversion to Judahism was the only way to heaven?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
So Before Christ, conversion to Judahism was the only way to heaven?

Yes ... true Judaism was the God given approach to God in the OT times. I can find no biblical evidence for another way, other than the one that God gave in his revelation.

Let me stipulate here that I am obviously referring to the time after the giving of the Law and the institution of Judaism by God. Let me also stipulate that I am not referring to the twisting or mangling of Judaism over the years that brought about apostary and false teaching so eloquently condemned by Christ in his life.

I cannot think of anyone outside of converting to true worship of God that was a believer in the OT. I do see the prophets repeatedly calling people to a true worship of God.

Hebrews contrasts that old way with a new way, "a better hope" that we have now.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Pastor Larry,

Your statement as to the elect was, 'It is a gracious choice by God.'

And I say, 'but to the non-elect billions of people throughout all history it is hardly a 'house-warming party.' '

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Pastor Larry,

Your statement as to the elect was, 'It is a gracious choice by God.'

And I say, 'but to the non-elect billions of people throughout all history it is hardly a 'house-warming party.' '

It's clear you find the idea of election distasteful. But you need to face the fact that in both Arminianism and election God could save all, but doesn't, The fact that one way disturbs you and the other doesn't adds absolutely zero credibility to your belief in Arminianism, and subtracts exactly zero credibility from election.

The person to your left may find it unfair that anyone at all won't get saved. And the person to her left may think it's perfectly fair if nobody gets saved. None of these human judgements of how God would act contribute a whit to the truth of any given theology.

[ January 30, 2003, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: npetreley ]

 

[Yelsew]

Yes ... true Judaism was the God given approach to God in the OT times. I can find no biblical evidence for another way, other than the one that God gave in his revelation.

And Abraham, was his religion Judahism?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Your statement as to the elect was, 'It is a gracious choice by God.'

And I say, 'but to the non-elect billions of people throughout all history it is hardly a 'house-warming party.' '

It's not meant to be. The non-elect don't want to be at the "party." They want to continue in their sins and they want to reject God. They are doing exactly what they want to do. Scripture teaches that election stems from God's own pleasure, not from man's belief.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Yes ... true Judaism was the God given approach to God in the OT times. I can find no biblical evidence for another way, other than the one that God gave in his revelation.

And Abraham, was his religion Judahism? </font>[/QUOTE]It is unfortunate how you read only what you want to read and ignore the rest. Here is the statement that immediately follows your citation.

Let me stipulate here that I am obviously referring to the time after the giving of the Law and the institution of Judaism by God.

Even you can figure out that Abraham lived before that time (unless that is a part of the Bible that is not trustworthy since it was only inspired but not without error). He was however the father of the Jews. He was a monotheist who came to God the way that God said.

You know Yelsew, I get really tired of people who ignore statements and do not read the posts and then ask questions that are clearly answered. I get tired of people who repeat misrepresentations even after they have been answered and corrected numerous times. Ray is the worst at this but he has some competition.

I get even more tired of people who claim to be biblical while ignoring the teaching of the Bible. You take the cake in this area. It is a sign of a failure to study and accept the teachings of the Bible about itself. It is not a way to build a sound theology.

 

[Yelsew]

Pastor Larry, Here's another of your dangling carrots,

He was a monotheist who came to God the way that God said.

And what way is that? Is it different that the way we must come to God?

Abraham's FAITH was counted unto him as RIGHTEOUSNESS. How is that different than how we must come to God?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Pastor Larry, Here's another of your dangling carrots, </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />He was a monotheist who came to God the way that God said.

And what way is that? Is it different that the way we must come to God?

Abraham's FAITH was counted unto him as RIGHTEOUSNESS. How is that different than how we must come to God? </font>[/QUOTE]It's not. The only difference is the content of his faith, the amount of revelation he had until that time.

 

[Yelsew]

I'd say we have the advantage in knowledge. We have over 4000 years of knowledge. Essentially all that Abraham had was "the creation" and the Voice of god, which we also have.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
I'd say we have the advantage in knowledge. We have over 4000 years of knowledge. Essentially all that Abraham had was "the creation" and the Voice of god, which we also have.

Which was exactly what I said ... We have more revelation. He responded in faith to the revelation that he had; we respond in faith to the revelation that we have ...