Double Predestination

[Yeshua1]

PS 53 and 14 are nearly identical and together they speak of the reprobate heathen afflicting God's elect Israel.

NO, they speak to sinners afflicting Jesus, the jewish Messiah!

 

[tyndale1946]

View attachment 2349[/QUOTE]

John 3:16-18 may be just three verses, but this is still the Infallible Word of God, that is teaching some Truths on God's love for the human race and their salvation. You criticize me for mentioning Hebrew and Greek, and yet you say, "Not to mention that the Greek does not say "whosoever believeth;" it says "all the ones believing."", which is complete rubbish because the Greek does NOT say this! Here is the Greek text, "ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλὰ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον", which very literally says, "that everyone who continues to believe in Him, may not perish, but have eternal live". "πιστεύων", is here in the present, continuance tense, which requires an on-going believing.

the YOU that Jesus uses with Nicodemus, is in the plural, ὑμᾶς, replying to Nicodemus' use of "we", in verse 2, which could also include the other members of the Jewish Council. Which means that Jesus was saying that they ALL needed to be born-again, or "from above" (γεννηθῆναι ἄνωθεν)

I know this post is about to be closed so I will direct this question to you... You said that God loves the whole world... Jesus said on one occasion that I pray not for the world but to those that are in world but not of the world?... Why would he do that if God loves the whole world?... Brother Glen

 

[Yeshua1]

View attachment 2349

I know this post is about to be closed so I will direct this question to you... You said that God loves the whole world... Jesus said on one occasion that I pray not for the world but to those that are in world but not of the world?... Why would he do that if God loves the whole world?... Brother Glen[/QUOTE]
Why would he also just address His own sheep, and not leading all to Himself then?

 

[tyndale1946]

I know this post is about to be closed so I will direct this question to you... You said that God loves the whole world... Jesus said on one occasion that I pray not for the world but to those that are in world but not of the world?... Why would he do that if God loves the whole world?... Brother Glen

Why would he also just address His own sheep, and not leading all to Himself then?[/QUOTE]

There was one thief on the cross he didn't love but thank God by the grace and mercy of God there was one he did, or we would just be like the one he didn't... Brother Glen

 

[The Archangel]

John 3:16-18 may be just three verses, but this is still the Infallible Word of God, that is teaching some Truths on God's love for the human race and their salvation.

Some truths. Not all. That was my point. There is the whole of scripture, not just these three verse. You are ignoring that the rest of the text from Genesis to Revelation influences (or should influence) the understanding of these three verses.

You criticize me for mentioning Hebrew and Greek, and yet you say, "Not to mention that the Greek does not say "whosoever believeth;" it says "all the ones believing."", which is complete rubbish because the Greek does NOT say this! Here is the Greek text, "ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλὰ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον", which very literally says, "that everyone who continues to believe in Him, may not perish, but have eternal live". "πιστεύων", is here in the present, continuance tense, which requires an on-going believing.

No. Again you miss the point. I'm not criticizing that you bring Greek or Hebrew into it. I'm [rightly] criticizing your usage, and understanding thereof, of Greek and Hebrew. Your use of the languages is akin to a surgeon using a screwdriver in place of a scalpel.

I noticed your translation didn't say "whosoever believeth," thus proving my point that the original doesn't say "whosoever believeth." So, it is not, as you say, "complete rubbish."

What is more, πιστεύων is not a verb here, but is a participle--a present, active participle at that. In order for your "continuing to believe" to be correct, you would likely see the participle in the perfect tense, which it is not. In Koine Greek, there is no such thing as "the continuance" tense.

the YOU that Jesus uses with Nicodemus, is in the plural, ὑμᾶς, replying to Nicodemus' use of "we", in verse 2, which could also include the other members of the Jewish Council. Which means that Jesus was saying that they ALL needed to be born-again, or "from above" (γεννηθῆναι ἄνωθεν)

The verse in question was John 3:3, not John 3:7. Jesus does address the plural in v. 7. However, he addresses Nicodemus in the singular in v. 3. He tells Nicodemus "unless one is born again..." The key part here, though, it the verb γεννηθῇ. In this instance, as it also is in the infinitive form in v. 7, is passive, which means the subject (Nicodemus, in this case) cannot act upon himself. The "born-ing" has to come from someone other than Nicodemus.

So, Jesus' words to Nicodemus here contradict your understanding of John 3:16-18. Jesus' words in John 3 (before 3:16, which is likely John's narration, but it matters not) clearly show that the only ones who will be saved are the ones who are born again, and that is not something that one can do to or for one's self. So, salvation is not something that can ever be categorized as "whosoever" as in a free and open choice on the creature's part--unless, of course, you wish to debate Jesus Himself about that.

The Archangel

 

[Yeshua1]

Some truths. Not all. That was my point. There is the whole of scripture, not just these three verse. You are ignoring that the rest of the text from Genesis to Revelation influences (or should influence) the understanding of these three verses.



No. Again you miss the point. I'm not criticizing that you bring Greek or Hebrew into it. I'm [rightly] criticizing your usage, and understanding thereof, of Greek and Hebrew. Your use of the languages is akin to a surgeon using a screwdriver in place of a scalpel.

I noticed your translation didn't say "whosoever believeth," thus proving my point that the original doesn't say "whosoever believeth." So, it is not, as you say, "complete rubbish."

What is more, πιστεύων is not a verb here, but is a participle--a present, active participle at that. In order for your "continuing to believe" to be correct, you would likely see the participle in the perfect tense, which it is not. In Koine Greek, there is no such thing as "the continuance" tense.



The verse in question was John 3:3, not John 3:7. Jesus does address the plural in v. 7. However, he addresses Nicodemus in the singular in v. 3. He tells Nicodemus "unless one is born again..." The key part here, though, it the verb γεννηθῇ. In this instance, as it also is in the infinitive form in v. 7, is passive, which means the subject (Nicodemus, in this case) cannot act upon himself. The "born-ing" has to come from someone other than Nicodemus.

So, Jesus' words to Nicodemus here contradict your understanding of John 3:16-18. Jesus' words in John 3 (before 3:16, which is likely John's narration, but it matters not) clearly show that the only ones who will be saved are the ones who are born again, and that is not something that one can do to or for one's self. So, salvation is not something that can ever be categorized as "whosoever" as in a free and open choice on the creature's part--unless, of course, you wish to debate Jesus Himself about that.

The Archangel

it is really hard to be using Hebrew and Greek in an accurate way unless one is well verse and trained in it as you are, so best to stick to the Elglish translations otherwise!

 

[TCassidy]

This thread is now closed.