Downsizing the Ten Commandments

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

indeed we have YET to see "ALL mankind coming before God to Worship from Sabbath to Sabbath" as Isaiah 66 PREDICTS we will all do.

And as Romans 9 and 11 state the promises of God WILL be fulfilled EVEN the ones given in Isaiah 66 - but they will be fulfilled in context of "ALL ISRAEL" for they are not Israel who are merely children of literal lineage by the flesh.

The key point for Isaiah 66 is that the Pre-Cross OT STATED scope for the Sabbath as INTENDED by God is given as "ALL MANKIND".

And as Mark 2:27 points out it had the SAME SCOPE at its origin when it was MADE "the Sabbath was MADE for Mankind".

(I have been using more BLUE in the Bible quote section since DHK says RED is not appreciate by some).

It is pretty hard to argue that the OT authors DID NOT preach about an "ALL MANKIND" scope for the Sabbath when we are SEEING it in Isaiah 66.

And it is pretty hard to turn a blind eye to the SAME author teaching about the BLESSING of God upon non-Jews In the OT who "Kept the Sabbath" in Isaiah 56.

In Christ,

Bob

GE:

I accept; I agree; Ibelieve; I hope, the same. This Scripture also applies to after Christ would have come.

Difficult to understand how the majority of Christiandom would not think so too.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

DHK:

"I never said that Sunday was hallowed or sanctified. You need to withdraw your words on the basis of what you say, not on the basis of what I do. Unless you can find a quote where I said such, you simply lied.[/quote]

GE:
On the basis of what you, here, admit that you "never said that Sunday was hallowed or sanctified", I withdraw my words to the effect that you did. That is not admitting anything of what you have argued against the Sabbath, is sound argument. In fact, you, DHK, holds - to me - a quite novel position concerning the Sabbath; you do not represent what one might call the standard viewpoint of the Church in general. In other words, you do not only oppose the SDA-viepoint and mine, but also that of your own Church.

For this is the crux of the matter, that the Sabbath was given to Israel -- to ALL Israel -- i.e., to the Church, as it is said in Hb4:9, to "the People of God". No Church, no Sabbath; no Israel (TRUE Israel) no Sabbath. But since both are as real and true today as ever in the past or in the future of the new earth, it says, "a keeping of the Sabbath still remains"; and, the Sabbath is made -- in other words, exists -- for the purpose and for the sake of man". It was made and existed specifically first for the Representative Man, Jesus Christ, and then for man in the sense of God's Elect of the Church Visible and Present.
DHK, "the Sabbath was made for man" - for these who are, Israel and the Saviour of Israel; it had NOT been 'made', and NEVER 'existed' for the Isael of DISOBEDIENCE. This is the missing dimension within your perspective. This TRUTH, is what you ignore flat as if you do not understand it. But you do understand it, and I am forced by your own argumentations to recognise a certain dishonesty about it.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The Sabbath was "made for mankind." (Mark 2:27)
"There is no God" (Prov.14:1)

This is the kind of proof-texting Bob does. Notice how only a portion of a verse is quoted in both cases with the context left out. Is this really what the Bible teaches?

GE:

This really is unfair, DHK. It is not Bob who argues like this; it is you.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I enjoyed this Music! "stop for a minuet and remember what God did for us" --- the kind of Sabbath-keeping I believe in : It is a Feast God gives His People to spiritually eat and drink ( to the dismay of the envious even, Col2:12-17) .

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

My daddy (Bap. Evang.) always taught me to always read a little ahead and below a quote a preacher makes out of the bible to be sure he's right. For the fact that DHK touched on. SO far Bob is hitting the mark just fine. Only on thing that I stress even if you do keep the sabbath be aware not t use it as an excuse not to help someone in need. Even on a Sunday if you see someone broke down while going to church... do you pass them by and say we'll get our Sunday go to chuch suit dirty or I just don't have time to help them or I'll be late for church.
Funny that we might all be guilty of this and never took time to stop for a minuet and remember what God did for us.

Mat 12:10 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.
Mat 12:11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
Mat 12:12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.
Remember the sabbath day... true, but Jesus put a new spin on it didn't he. The same as in Bobs verse that he quotes in Mark 2:27 start in verse 26.

GE:

Again I just love you putting it, Music, ". . . Jesus put a new spin on it ..."

Now here's 'the spin' I perceive: that Jesus in these verses gave us a straight-forward indication the Lamb of God would do God's great work of salvation and redemption, right on, the Sabbath, and would not only have "made the Sabbath FOR" that purpose and end; but that He would even WORK, THROUGH it, to that end and purpose. He "sanctified the Sabbath" didn't God? For what else? He "blessed" it and upon it, "rested" and "perfected", for what else BUT GOD'S OWN, REST - in that He would "enter into His own REST "as GOD IN HIS OWN", resting? What else and where else but in and through Jesus Christ - the Lamb of God here in these verses saved from torment and hell and death, victorious?
Jesus hinted at much more and greater than our good duty; He hinted at His own good duty to save us through dying and rising -- wherein the Sabbath found its New Testament meaning.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Amy.G:
"Those gentiles did not observe the Sabbath as they were not Jewish. They came to hear Paul preach, which HE did on the Sabbath."

GE:

You wear dangerous spectacles, Amy.G! These same 'Gentiles' frequented the Synagogue, more faithfully than did the Jews! The Jews illmannered stormed out under Paul's very preaching while the Gentiles remained seated and heard Paul out. They - not the Jews - invited Paul like courteous hosts should, to visit THEM again the next Sabbath. The Gentiles were in control - sort of acted as the Kerkraad. They could teach the Jews good manners, as well as good Sabbath observance.

 

[music4Him]

Those gentiles did not observe the Sabbath as they were not Jewish. They came to hear Paul preach, which HE did on the Sabbath.

If those Gentiles didn't observe the sabbath what were they doin in a synagogue on the sabbath??? And why did Paul preach on the sabbath? :laugh: Was it his custom or did he follow Jesus' example? Remember that Jesus was Jewish and it was his custom.

Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

 

[music4Him]

GE:

Again I just love you putting it, Music, ". . . Jesus put a new spin on it ..."

Now here's 'the spin' I perceive: that Jesus in these verses gave us a straight-forward indication the Lamb of God would do God's great work of salvation and redemption, right on, the Sabbath, and would not only have "made the Sabbath FOR" that purpose and end; but that He would even WORK, THROUGH it, to that end and purpose. He "sanctified the Sabbath" didn't God? For what else? He "blessed" it and upon it, "rested" and "perfected", for what else BUT GOD'S OWN, REST - in that He would "enter into His own REST "as GOD IN HIS OWN", resting? What else and where else but in and through Jesus Christ - the Lamb of God here in these verses saved from torment and hell and death, victorious?
Jesus hinted at much more and greater than our good duty; He hinted at His own good duty to save us through dying and rising -- wherein the Sabbath found its New Testament meaning.

Amen GE! :godisgood:

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The whole Christian Church should be ashamed because of its great regard for Sunday. The whole Christian Church should repent its dependance on Sunday-keeping for its very existence, and should acknowledge the anti-christ origins and fast-holds of its religious observance, which in Paul's opinion was a weak and beggarly first principle of wordly bondage.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Amen GE! :godisgood:

GE:
You want to tell me, Amy.G, that you believe that Jesus rose from the dead on the Sabbath Day?

 

[BobRyan]

If those Gentiles didn't observe the sabbath what were they doin in a synagogue on the sabbath??? And why did Paul preach on the sabbath? :laugh: Was it his custom or did he follow Jesus' example? Remember that Jesus was Jewish and it was his custom.

Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

All true.

Well said.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Responding to Isaiah 66 "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"

GE:

I accept; I agree; Ibelieve; I hope, the same. This Scripture also applies to after Christ would have come.

Difficult to understand how the majority of Christiandom would not think so too.

This is actually a very good point G.E. If you notice in Dan 2 (image and 4 world empires followed by the great stone) and Dan 7 (4 world empires followed by Christ receiving his Kingdom) -- the OT did not present the coming of the Messiah as a TWO STAGE event - but as ONE.

Also the OT did not "require that the Jews FAIL" in its predictions -- in some fatalistic gospel to Jews. Rather it looked forward to success and it could do so because "it is not as though the promises of God have failed" according to Paul in Romans 3 and in Romans 9.

EVEN with the failure of the Jews the SAME promises will still come about given some time and the 2nd coming.

But this just emphasizes that even in the GOOD scenario of Jews ACCEPTING their Messiah - the Sabbath SCOPE was STILL "ALL mankind"

 

[Amy.G]

GE:
You want to tell me, Amy.G, that you believe that Jesus rose from the dead on the Sabbath Day?

Jesus rose from the dead on the first day of the week.

 

[DHK]

the Sabbath SCOPE was STILL "ALL mankind"

Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your point of view), "the Sabbath scope is not for all mankind," and that premise cannot be demonstrated from Scripture, unless you butcher the Scripture like you just did above agan by quoting partial verses out of context.

 

[music4Him]

Jesus said in the book of Matthew....

Matt. 11:27-30 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

I put emphasis the part where Jesus said, "and learn of me". We can read the bible and learn His customs and His comands and use His walk as to how we ought to conduct our lives as Christians.
Even the book of Esther ought to teach us that we need to learn about the king (his laws, rules, customs ect.) so we know how to please him.

 

[DHK]

Jesus said in the book of Matthew....
I put emphasis the part where Jesus said, "and learn of me". We can read the bible and learn His customs and His comands and use His walk as to how we ought to conduct our lives as Christians.
Even the book of Esther ought to teach us that we need to learn about the king (his laws, rules, customs ect.) so we know how to please him.

So we learn that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, not the servant of it. He did not necessarily keep the Sabbath. "My Father works; and I work."
Never in any verse in the NT is a Gentile commanded to keep the Sabbath.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BR:
"...the Sabbath SCOPE was STILL "ALL mankind"..."

GE:

Ja and no; the 'sabbath-side' I agree with you; the unconditional "ALL mankind"-side, not. Why? because I'm a Calvinist -- an 'electionist'; you, a 'universalist'.

The Sabbath indeed had been given to Israel and Israel only as the People of God exclusively - to NO unbeliever. Even when given to the Gentile, that Gentile must through faith first become an Israelite - spiritually, that is. The Sabbath is not for the unregenerate, but for believers only -- always!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Jesus rose from the dead on the first day of the week.

GE:

Then you have no reason to have endorsed what I have said about the Sabbath - for the Sabbath in the Christian era has no foot to stand on but God's works He rested from through and in Jesus Christ in resurrection from the dead. The principle firstly, why Jesus would and did rise from the dead, on no other day than the Sabbath (Rest-Day) of the LORD your God.
The actual reality of the event and day;
and the actual and true words of the Record, in the third place, why you - holding all this to apply to the First Day of the week - have NO RIGHT to have agreed with me. Do not steal the God-given honour of the Lord's Day for your own Sunday. It is against the Word of God.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

You with your Seventh Day Sabbath and all, are Sundayists as much as are the Sunday-worshippers, because you bestow on the day of the lord Sun, the virtue, the purpose and the service God intended for the Sabbath and through Jesus Christ in the rising of Him from dead, gave it, and no other day.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

In a word, dear Amy.G, in having said, "Jesus rose from the dead on the first day of the week", you display lack of both knowledge and insight. As most well-meaning Christians do.