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Dr C Hodge on the Atonement

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by icthus, May 3, 2005.

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  1. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

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    Yes, Icthus,

    Calvinists of the PCA type believe that Jesus died only for the elect. And if you can't say it like that without any disclaimers, you aren't ordainable in the PCA.

    So, yes, many Calvinists of the Westminster Confession type need to know what you are pointing out from Dabney, Hodge, and Calvin.

    Jesus died for everyone as the sacrificial lamb. As priest he only intercedes for the elect.

    He actually paid the penalty for sin that all humanity incurred. He only applies that sacrifice to the elect when he intercedes.

    I believe this is the position of Calvin, but the English divines (including the PCA) would heartily disagree with my assessment of Calvin.
     
    #21 Paul33, May 3, 2005
  2. icthus

    icthus New Member

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    Hi, what are you responding to here, if you are?

    I don't see how you can say that Christ Christ died for everyone, and that "He actually paid the penalty for sin that all humanity incurred", and yet hold to (I assume that you do), a limited atonement?

    I am still waiting for any Calvinist to show me how the death of Jesus benefits the non-elect? This is what I would call an "own goal" for all Calvinists.
     
    #22 icthus, May 3, 2005
  3. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    Where did Hodge say that?

    (By the way, Paul33 is agreeing with you.)
     
    #23 whatever, May 3, 2005
  4. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Just as we have shown you, from the bible, many places where "all" does not mean "all people everywhere without exception" but "people of all kindred, tongues, and nations." But you ignore this as it disproves your point.

    You see, unwittingly, you proved my point for me. [​IMG]
    So you don't have to add repentance and faith but you have to do repentance and faith? Where did you get that repentance and faith so you could "do" it?
     
    #24 TCassidy, May 3, 2005
  5. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    First, as you pointed out in the material you quoted above, the death of Christ is a sufficient ground for any and every man to be saved.

    Second, the sacrifice of Christ provides the restraint of evil until the final judgment which benefits both the saved and the lost.

    Third, the sacrifice of Christ blesses all humanity with certain gifts (civic government, for one) which benefits all humans without distinction.

    The rain falls on both the just and the unjust, all because of Christ's death.
     
    #25 TCassidy, May 3, 2005
  6. russell55

    russell55 New Member

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    Here you go, from the same article by Charles Hodge:

     
    #26 russell55, May 3, 2005
  7. russell55

    russell55 New Member

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    Put the phrase back in the context in which Hodge uses it.

    In other words, all men have sinned, all men need the death Christ and the merit of his obedience. There is no other way to be saved. His death would do the job for any man to whom it was applied.

    The penalty which each person has incurred is death. Christ died. Therefore, it is the perfect remedy for any sinner. It would work for them if it were applied to them.

    Here's how Hodge himself explains it later in the same article:
    [ May 03, 2005, 08:50 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]
     
    #27 russell55, May 3, 2005
  8. icthus

    icthus New Member

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    First, as you pointed out in the material you quoted above, the death of Christ is a sufficient ground for any and every man to be saved.

    Second, the sacrifice of Christ provides the restraint of evil until the final judgment which benefits both the saved and the lost.

    Third, the sacrifice of Christ blesses all humanity with certain gifts (civic government, for one) which benefits all humans without distinction.

    The rain falls on both the just and the unjust, all because of Christ's death.     </font>[/QUOTE]Jesus Christ died in about 33 A.D., but all that you say His death benefits all mankind, existed 1000's of years before this time.

    It is complete nonsense to say that the fact that we have rain, etc, is because of Jesus' death. I have heard these reasons, but find that they are only there because there is no real answer to show how Jesus' death really does benefit the non-elect.

    Where in Scripture do you get this from? Where does it say that because of the death of Jesus, "provides the restraint of evil"? This is all conjecture and has no Scriptual basis whatsoever.

    I wait for Biblical reasons showing how the death of Jesus benefits the non-elect. You must try to present a serious case.
     
    #28 icthus, May 3, 2005
  9. icthus

    icthus New Member

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    Here you go, from the same article by Charles Hodge:

    </font>[/QUOTE]#

    Russell, get real, this is no answer as to how the death of Jesus actually benefits the non-elect.

    How can you say that the offer of the Gospel to every creature, benefits the non-elect, since they can never share in the real benefit of this, which is the Salvation of the lost soul?

    These "reasons" given by Calvinists are red herrings, as they really cannot show from Scripture how Christ' death can ever benefit the non-elect, as the main purpose of Jesus' death was for Salvation, something according to your theology, is limited to the elect only.
     
    #29 icthus, May 3, 2005
  10. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

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    Russel,

    Great thoughts. I agree.

    Whatever,

    Thanks for pointing out that I agreed with Icthus. [​IMG]

    Icthus,

    Try and reason rationally.
     
    #30 Paul33, May 3, 2005
  11. russell55

    russell55 New Member

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    If they believed, they could be saved based on the same one death of Christ.

    Okay, let me turn this around and ask you: What benefit does Christ's death have for the unbeliever, as the main purpose of Jesus' death was for salvation, something which, according to your theology, is limited to believers only?
     
    #31 russell55, May 3, 2005
  12. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

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    What's limited to the elect only?

    Intercession at the Father's right hand by Jesus Christ!
     
    #32 Paul33, May 3, 2005
  13. icthus

    icthus New Member

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    If they believed, they could be saved based on the same one death of Christ.

    Okay, let me turn this around and ask you: What benefit does Christ's death have for the unbeliever, as the main purpose of Jesus' death was for salvation, something which, according to your theology, is limited to believers only?     </font>[/QUOTE]My theology does not limit Salvation to the "elect", but everyone whosoevery shall believe, shall not be ashamed. The Gospel can only be sincerely offer to everyone without exception, if the death of Christ is for the same.
     
    #33 icthus, May 3, 2005
  14. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    No problem. I agree with him too, and it's driving him nuts. ;)
     
    #34 whatever, May 3, 2005
  15. icthus

    icthus New Member

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    No problem. I agree with him too, and it's driving him nuts. ;) </font>[/QUOTE]I know :D (its because its now 2.15 am in London)
     
    #35 icthus, May 3, 2005
  16. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    That MUST BE because you MISAPPLY IT over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.
     
    #36 Wes Outwest, May 3, 2005
  17. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

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    Icthus said:

    The Gospel can only be sincerely offer to everyone without exception, if the death of Christ is for the same.

    ------------------------------------------

    Jesus died for everyone. Therefore the offer is sincere.

    But God also knows everything before he created the universe and therefore knows who are in Christ and who aren't.

    But lets say God doesn't know the future and that Jesus died for everyone making it possible for anyone who wants to, to repent and believe, and thus be saved (something that Calvinists also affirm).

    How is the offer sincere if millions have never heard the gospel and never will? The problem you site still exists, even in your view.
     
    #37 Paul33, May 3, 2005
  18. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Revelation 13:8 "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
    Matthew 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
    You just got the real answer, but you have to reject it because it proves you wrong.
    See above.
    2 Thess 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
    The bible is not conjecture.
    You have been given the Truth. Now it is up to you to accept or reject it.
     
    #38 TCassidy, May 3, 2005
  19. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Cassidy,
    I have disagreed, Atonement was not done for believers. Nowhere is atonement equated with believers. Atonement was made for Sin so that whosoever among ALL sinners who does come to believe in Jesus the Son of God, can have everlasting life.
     
    #39 Wes Outwest, May 3, 2005
  20. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

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    The atoning sacrifice was made for sin. The atonement isn't applied until Christ intercedes for the elect at the Father's right hand.
     
    #40 Paul33, May 3, 2005
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