Dr. Gipp's "Wrong Answer Book"...

[robycop3]

Actually, recently I have discovered some information that may indicate that there were TWO paschal meals: one on the 14th and one on the 15th in Jerusalem. It is unclear to me at this time whether the observance was divided geographically (Galilean and Judean) or sectarian (Sadducee and Pharisee). One explanation* given for this 'dual Passover' situation was pragmatic: to make it possible for about half the Jews to bring their sacrifices to the Temple on each day (otherwise there would not be enough time/space/priests to get them all sacrificed in a single day). If this was indeed the case, then Jesus could have had a legitimate paschal meal with His Galilean disciples the night before His crucifixion and still have been sacrificed simultaneously with paschal lambs the following day (when those Judean Pharisees were going to observe Passover). It accounts for two "preparation" days as Mark and John describe (note to Bart Ehrman: you were wrong about this being an irresolvable discrepancy in your book).

Actually, Frank, we see that by Jesus' time on earth, it had become impractical for many Israelis to come to Jerusalem for passover, and originally Israel had observed passover in each family's tent. Also, most Jews bought their paschal lambs, as many of them were in non-agrarian professions by then.
Jesus' "family" at that time was His disciples, so they ate the paschal meal together. And I certainly don't believe JESUS woulda eaten the passover on the wrong day! The "two paschal meal" theory just doesn't make any sense in the face of the super-legalistic Jewish leadership of that day, who woulda had a legitimate reason for slaying Jesus had He eaten paschal on the wrong day, and who certainly would NOT have done so themselves, careful as they were to observe every jot & tittle of the OT law.

Sportzz Fanzz, we're(myself included) getting off on a tangent away from the theme of this thread, which is Dr. Gipp's "Wrong Answer Book".

 

[franklinmonroe]

Hold on there, roby. Don't bail out on this issue just because it seems like it may go against your opinion. (Besides, you can always bring up Gipp's 'wrong answers' as before.)

Actually, Frank, we see that by Jesus' time on earth, it had become impractical for many Israelis to come to Jerusalem for passover, and originally Israel had observed passover in each family's tent.

It was never convenient for each and every Israelite to travel to Jerusalem.

Also, most Jews bought their paschal lambs, as many of them were in non-agrarian professions by then. Jesus' "family" at that time was His disciples, so they ate the paschal meal together.

Probably, yes; but what has this to do with it?

And I certainly don't believe JESUS woulda eaten the passover on the wrong day! The "two paschal meal" theory just doesn't make any sense in the face of the super-legalistic Jewish leadership of that day, who woulda had a legitimate reason for slaying Jesus had He eaten paschal on the wrong day, and who certainly would NOT have done so themselves, careful as they were to observe every jot & tittle of the OT law.
...

No one is suggesting that Jesus observed the 'wrong' day. This was fresh Jewish cultural info to me, too. It may not make sense to you now, but maybe you could do some research into it before making up your mind. I just am reporting what I have discovered. I first read about the 'dual-Passover' in Chronological & Background Charts of the New Testament by H.Wayne House (1981); on page 81 he has a "Reckoning of the Passover" chart which is divided into the Galilean Method and the Judean Method which is adapted from an article "Chronological Aspects of the Life of Christ" (Hoehner, Bib Sac, vol.131); later this info would become the core of a Zondervan book (1977).

I could cite others, but here is one more seemingly independant source of similar info (towards bottom of the page) --
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5757
Maybe there weren't two Passovers, I don't know. I don't see how you could know for sure that there wasn't.

 

[franklinmonroe]

... The reason for the confusion is we have difficulty understanding days that start at sundown. The Jewish day starts around 6 PM our time, not midnight.

I used to think so, but maybe that was not always so. Allow me to summarize a theory by Harold W. Hoehner of Dallas Theological Seminary --

The Passover reckoned by Galilean Method was sunrise-to-sunrise: Nisan 14 would have began on Thursday sunrise. At about 3 to 5 p.m. Thursday, Passover lambs were slaughtered by people who observed the Galilean method of reckoning of Passover. Jesus and his disciples had their Passover meal which was also the last supper after sunset on Thursday. Jesus was then arrested Thursday night.

The Passover as reckoned by Judean Method sunset-to-sunset: Nisan 14 would have began on Thursday sunset. Jesus was arrested on Thursday after sunset and the Last Supper with his disciples. On Friday, Passover lambs according to the Judean reckoning were slaughtered at about 3 to 5 p.m. which was now late Nisan 14. This was also the time Jesus died on the cross and was then burried. After sunset on Friday i.e. the night of Nisan 15, the Judeans and Sadducees had their Passover meals.

It is just a hypothosis that seemingly reconciles the Gospel accounts.

 

[robycop3]

The Jews in the area/time of Jesus' crucifixion observed sundown as the beginning of their new day, as they wanted the men on the crosses dead & their bodies taken down before sundown.

And, based upon my extensive reading of history and religious observances, I simply don't believe the "two passover" stuff at all. The Jews woulda reacted very violently to anyone performing what they woulda considered a desecration of passover. History shows even the Romans respected passover until Hadrian decided to kick them outta the Roman Empire. Besides that, even if the 'two-passovers' thingie were true, it was the JEWISH RELIGIOUS LEADERSHIP who busted Jesus, refused to enter the Roman Praetorium lest they become ceremonially defiled, and who wanted the crucified men dead & their bodies taken down before sunset, who requested Pilate post guards at Jesus' tomb, etc, etc. These men certainly observed passover & ate their paschal meals at the same time Jesus did.

The simple fact is, GOD reminded the Jews that passover is A WEEK LONG in Ezekiel 45:21, and that John, knowing this, considered the special unleavened meals eaten during this week to be parta passover, as is evident in John 18:28. Dr. Gipp is simply WRONG in saying Peter was busted AFTER passover.

 

[Winman]

From the KJV:Matthew 26:18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.Matthew 26:19 And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover. # Luke 22:8
And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.Luke 22:11And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?Luke 22:13And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.Luke 22:15And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:<br><br>&nbsp; This is a short list of passages indicating JESUS ATE THE PASSOVER at the "Last Supper". Remember, He did not have to be baptized, but He said that He had to do "all that is good". And passover had been given by God to Israel FOR EVER, so Jesus certainly followed all the statutes pertaining to passover. However, by His authority, He added the "Lord's Supper" to the observance, which was to be observed by ALL Christians, including the non-Jewish ones who did not observe passover.<br><br>&nbsp; Winman, those Scriptures plainly showed you to be WRONG. Not only do they call the meal "passover", but they state it was the time when the paschal lamb was to be killed. And that lamb was to be immediately prepared to be eaten after it was killed, and eaten that very same eve.<br><br>Conclusion:Scripture PROVES Jesus' "Last Supper" was the paschal lamb of passover along with other food/drink consumed as part of that meal.(The paschal meal was more than just the lamb!) From those other items, Jesus instituted the "Lord's Supper".<br>

No, it was the day of "preparation". This is the day before the passover when the Jews carefully go through their homes and make sure there is no leaven anywhere in their homes. They start a day early. The Jews do this to this very day. This is the day the lamb is killed, but it is not the day the lamb is eaten.

Matt 27:62 Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,
63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.

The days of unleavened bread start on the 15th, this is when the passover meal is eaten. The day of preparation is the 14th, which is also the day the passover lamb is killed in the evening. But the lamb is not eaten until after sunset which is the 15th.

This is shown in Matt 27:62. Jesus was killed on the day of preparation (the 14th at 3 PM), which was the day before the feast of unleavened bread begins (the 15th). It is a day of preparation, making sure there is no leaven in the house. Therefore, the Jews eat only unleavened bread on this day also. The Jews eat the passover lamb on the 15th. The day before is the day of preparation.

John 19:13 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha.
14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!

When Jesus was taken in the garden, it was the early hours of the 14th, the day of preparation. The passover lamb was to be killed hours later at evening (the Jews traditionally kill the lamb at 3 PM), but the lamb was not eaten until it was fully night on the 15th.

You will find not one word of Jesus and his disciples eating the passover lamb at the last supper.

 

[robycop3]

Winman:: You will find not one word of Jesus and his disciples eating the passover lamb at the last supper.

Winman, you're totally WRONG about this!

1. Luke 22:7
   Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.
2. Luke 22:8
   And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.
   Luke 22:7-9 (in Context) Luke 22 (Whole Chapter)
3. Luke 22:11
   And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?
4. Luke 22:13
   And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
5. Luke 22:15
   And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:

Now, it's a gimme that if they killed the passover,they ate it. According to Ex. 12, it was to be killed in the evening and eaten that night.(And they didn't have Frigidaires then.) So, the disciples obtained a lamb, and found the house with the upper room according to Jesus' instructions, killed the lamb, & prepared it and the other food/drink before sunset. Then, after sunset, Jesus and the disciples ate the meal, which HAD to have included the paschal lamb, according to God's instructions for observing passover.

And that day that began the previous eve at sunset was the same day the paschal lamb was eaten as that day began, & the same day in which Jesus was busted, crucified, and died before sunset. It was also the preparation day for one of the two Holy Convocations that took place during Passover Week, according to Ex. 12: 16. These Holy Convocations were called "High Sabbaths", in which the rules for the regular weekly Sabbath were followed, as well as the special rules applying for that particular High Sabbath. All special observance days were High Sabbaths, whether they fell on the regular weekly Sabbath or not. The special rules for the High Sabbath occurring during passover were that all leaven (yeast) was to be removed from all homes & that only unleavened meals were to be eaten, and including unleavened bread.
This is why the Jews wanted the bodies removed from the crosses & entombed before sunset, so they wouldn't be there when the High Sabbath of the Convocation day began. So, Winman, you're wrong yet again.

Ezekiel 45:21
In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.

Here, GOD is reminding the people that passover is a WEEK LONG, and not just the paschal lamb meal. This is why John mentioned in John 18:28 that the Jewish leadership did not wanna become ceremonially defiled by entering the Roman Praetorium & thus not being allowed to eat the special unleavened passover meals

This is just another attempt to justify "Easter" in Acts 12:4 by saying 'pascha' meant something other than passover in this one instance out of the 29 in which this word appears in the NT Greek mss. Sorry, butcha just pulled another "Casey At The Bat".

 

[Winman]

Now, it's a gimme that if they killed the passover,they ate it.

Well, of course they ate the passover lamb, but not on the same day that they killed it. It was killed late in the day of the 14th, but was not eaten until after sunset when it was the 15th.

The last supper was eaten just after sunset on the 14th. Read all accounts and you will not see one mention of the passover lamb being eaten, only the bread and wine. The passover lamb was not killed until the next day (after sunrise) around 3 PM. This is the time that Jesus died on the cross.

Look at the verses you submitted. Luke 22:7 says it was the day the passover must be killed. That is important, because the passover is eaten after sunset which is the next day.

According to Ex. 12, it was to be killed in the evening and eaten that night.(And they didn't have Frigidaires then.)

You know as well as I that after sunset it was a new day. The lamb was killed on the 14th, but not eaten until the 15th. The Jews hold this custom to this day.

This from Wiki on the Passover

The biblical regulations for the observance of the festival require that all leavening be disposed of before the beginning of the 15th of Nisan.[8] An unblemished lamb or goat is to be set apart on Nisan 10,[9] and slaughtered on Nisan 14 "between the two evenings",[10] a phrase which is, however, not defined. It is then to be eaten "that night", Nisan 15,[11] roasted, without the removal of its internal organs[12] with unleavened bread and bitter herbs.[11] Nothing of the sacrifice on which the sun rises may be eaten, but must be burned.[13] The sacrifices may only be performed in a specific place prescribed by God (for Judaism, Jerusalem and for Samaritans Mount Grezim).[14]

Notice the first sentence that all leaven had to be disposed of before the beginning of the 15th. This is the "preparation". Notice the lamb or goat must be killed on the 14th "between the two evenings", that is, before sunset. Then notice the lamb or goat is eaten after sunset on the 15th.

The last supper was at the beginning of the 14th just after sunset. It was the day of preparation. There is no mention whatsoever of Jesus and the disciples eating the passover lamb or goat.

 

[robycop3]

I believe the SCRIPTURES over anything man sez. Now, JESUS sent His disciples to PREPARE THE PASSOVER. Yes, they killed the lamb & prepared it before sunset, and after sunset, they ATE THE PASSOVER they had prepared, same as all other Jews did at that time.

The clincher is: ]Luke 22:15;;;"And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:"

And then, in V16, they were eating & drinking! Scripture covers only the most-important things that took place at this meal, not every mouthful that each man took.

Now, if ya wanna go on arguing they didn't eat the paschal lamb at that time, take it up with JESUS, who said he was EATING THIS PASSOVER. It wouldn't be eating passover if they hadn't eaten the lamb!

This is nothing but an attempt on your part, Winman, to get around GOD'S words in Ezekiel 45:21, reminding Israel that passover is a WEEK LONG, which is a Back-Way-Bennie attempt to say passover was not ongoing, but Easter was, when Peter was busted according to Acts 12. Well, it won't work. When Peter was busted, PASSOVER WEEK WAS ONGOING according to Luke; Easter didn't then exist!

Again, I believe what SCRIPTURE ACTUALLY SEZ, & not any man's faulty interp of it. And it plainly sez that JESUS ATE PASSOVER WITH HIS DISCIPLES shortly before He was busted. Try as ya might, you simply CANNOT make anything else outta what it plainly sez!

 

[robycop3]

By his silence, Winman admits defeat.