Dr. Jack Schaap thinks sin is a joke

Great illustration!

I get really concerned when we start taking teeny tiny bits of the whole and using them by themselves to build a case. Of course there is precedence for this. People do it with a few words of scripture strewn together all the time.

 

......not if you listen to the entire sermon and place it all into context.

I wholeheartedly agree!

no, they are not required to all have the exact same Bible. However, it is a habit of Brother Schaap to mention the page number of his own Bible that he is turning to when referencing Scripture. I do not know why, though I believe it is just one of those funny little things that all preachers do in their own home church, and is sort of one of his ways of being personable with his extremely large congregation. But it is not part of some kind of requirement placed upon the congregation to have the same Bible.

I know quite a few saved people I would not trust leading a children's ministry. Perhaps they have not yet grown as a Christian enough to teach, perhaps they are not leadership material - perhaps they have other issues precluding them from such ministry. Not really sure why you question this, as Im pretty sure you know people who are saved and yet should not be in charge of a ministry.

:thumbs:

 

Hoo, boy! Nowadays you can get in huge legal trouble (never mind moral implications) if you are not very careful who you use in children's ministries. And whoever you use, you need to put them through training so they know what is considered inappropriate nowadays. (My son went through this recently at a large IFB church in PA.) Some of it is political correctness, but much of it is simply to protect the children, since wickedness is rampant in modern America.

 

If the person is saved, that person should be trusted around children. If the person cannot be trusted around children, can it truly be said the person is saved?

If one is known as a pedophile even after a supposed profession of faith in Christ, that one's profession cannot be true. If it were a true conversion, Christ would take away that sin so that one would no longer continue in it.

If a known pedophile got saved and the Spirit bore witness with my spirit that that one truly had been saved, I would trust him or her with any child in the church.

 

HBSMN,

you are making a HUGE leap of logic here. Not being trusted to lead a children's ministry does not make one a pedophile! It could mean that the person is simply not discerning enough yet to be in a position to mold young minds.

 

Christians are not immune to sin and backsliding. Unless they were very mature and far removed from their past life, I would not put a pedophile in charge of children anymore than I would put a glutton in charge of pot lucks or a fornicator in charge of college singles.

 

Bapmom,

You are making a huge step. Schapp clearly said he would not trust them around children, not teaching. Listen to his sermon.

 

If one truly was saved, one is no longer the pedophile one was. He or she is changed. That sin is cast far from him or her and into the sea. He or she cannot go fishing for the same sins that he or she was cleansed from.

Do you not believe the Word of God?

If any man be in Christ he is a new creature; old things are passed away, behold all things are become new.

 

I very much believe the Word of God, the new creature isn't automatically without sin.

"And David spake unto the LORD when he saw the angel that smote the people, and said, Lo, I have sinned, and I have done wickedly: but these sheep, what have they done? let thine hand, I pray thee, be against me, and against my father's house." - 2 Samuel 24:17​

"Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou art the LORD our God." - Jeremiah 3:22​

"Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights." - Jonah 1:17​

"I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants. And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him." - Luke 15:18-20​

"And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? " - 1 Corinthians 3:1-4​

 

Can you provide Scripture that says David committed the same sins he was guilty of before faith in God? or Peter? Paul? Any Bible character who professed faith in Christ and continued in the sin he was saved in?


I have searched the Scripture extensively and cannot find proof that they returned to the same sins.

 

Ok, that's fine, but the relevant quotes were already presented. The key words that differentiate Schaap calling him godly and Catholic teens calling him godly are these words.

I bolded it to highlight that those words, taken in context, clearly demonstrate that Schaap is not calling the pope a man of god, but that the teenagers he's referring to did. I don't think you're dishonest, quite the contrary, so I found it very puzzling as to why those words weren't included in your posts. Perhaps an honest mistake, and, if so, I have no issue.

Regardless, I was thinking about this thread while mowing the yard tonight, and Sanderson asked a question in the other thread I noted (see post #14).

I might ask the same of the members of Sanderson's church that have stuck around.

Mr. Anderson, the hatred that you show towards people is extremely troubling to me, and in no way does it imitate the love of Christ towards sinners. I'm all for preaching against sin, but I see and hear much more hatred in your words than I do anything else. I find it disturbing.

 

Old things are passed away. If he was a murderer before salvation, he is no longer going to murder. If a pedophile before salvation, no longer a pedophile, etc.

 

Remind me to never, ever allow my children in your church.

Let's go over the litany of problems with your viewpoint:

• As Rufus said, one is not immune to committing sin after one is saved. Christians can commit a sin...and for someone who was ensnared by such a terrible wickedness as pedophilia, any recurring problems in that area is catastrophic.
• Even if you were right about a pedophile who got saved not ever sinning in that area again, (which you're not)...what if you misjudge the person? What if they fool you...you think they're saved, but they're not? You've just put a reprobate in the worst possible place. Whoops. You've ruined a young life (lives), enabled a predator, financially destroyed your church, and decimated any witness you'll ever have in your community. You really want to play with those stakes? No thanks.
• Why in heaven's name would you put someone in a situation that reminds them of their past life? Child predators arrange their lives so that their paths cross children's paths...all so they can get their jollies at the expense of their poor victims. So you would actually consider recreating the crossing of the paths??? Even if they've changed...why put them in that setting? That's insane. At the worst, you're putting them in a tempting situation. At the very least, you're making people uneasy.
• In most states, you'd be violating the law by allowing the person access to kids. Can't do that.
• Furthermore, in some locales, parents/guardians would have a right to sue you for giving a child predator (even a saved one who has forsaken that lifestyle) access to your kids. I personally know of a lawsuit in this matter (settled for 6 figures).

Should we be redemptive to people who repent and become Christians? Of course. Does that mean we throw caution to the wind? Well, I don't. Furthermore, if they are saved, I'm not about to put them into situations of temptation. And I also have a responsibility to other parents...I doubt many of them want to take a chance with a former child predator.

They can do building/grounds work. They can run the sound. They can help with office stuff. They can move tables/chairs. They can write notes to shut-ins. They can record attendance.

But allowing former pedophiles to work with kids in a church is stupid, stupid, stupid.

Now...of course, you'll accuse me of not believing the Word of God...because that's what you do with people who don't agree with you.
Fine...have at it. I'll be redemptive without being foolish.

I pray to God that you never have the chance to try your theory out. And if you do...you better bat 1,000. Because if you're wrong....at all....God help you, your church, and those poor children that will suffer because of your foolish position.

 

So, despite the fact that God takes the sin of pedophilia away from one who was a pedophile and casts it far away and into the depths of the sea never to be remembered against him or her anymore, you believe that person can go fishing and resurrect that sin once again?

Then God never truly saved him or her.

Either that, or you doubt God's ability to change a person after salvation.

 

Jonah...lack of love for those whom God called him to preach to.

Peter...sin of pride:

• Caused him to boast, then deny Christ.
• Caused him to behave hypocritically with the Jews & Gentiles in Galatians.

 

OK...let's try this with a less "hot button" issue.

If you tend to gossip pre-Christ....and you get saved, are you telling me it is impossible for you to ever gossip again? Ever?

Absurd.

I believe that God gives you victory over the sin. But you can choose to be enticed and give in to temptation again.

Should you wallow in that sinful lifestyle, then yes...there's a question as to your salvation's authenticity.

But according to your logic, the lost person who "does 'em all"--adultery, profanity, idolatry, hate, gossip, etc., etc., etc., is in great shape when they get saved...because since they committed virtually every sin before Christ, and they can't commit these sins again, then they will be completely sinless and perfect.

Absurd.

Furthermore, you completely ignore the other side of it...what if you misjudge them...and you put an unsaved pedophile in charge of kids?

Too high a risk, even if you were right. And you're not.

 

double post

 

Yes. Have you never sinned since you got saved?

People can backslide without losing their salvation.

A murderer can be saved and be a new creature in Christ, but he will always be a murderer. He cannot erase the fact that he took a person's life.

An alcoholic can be saved and be a new creature in Christ, but he will always be an alcoholic.

A pedophile can be saved and be a new creature in Christ, but he will always be a pedophile.

These people do not have to act on their past sins, but to say they were never saved if they do so is not right.

Why would you want to put temptation in the path of a saved murderer, alcoholic, or pedophile?

I'm not perfect yet. Are you?

 

Then you can reach farther than God can throw if you can return to the same sin... making you stronger than God.

Absurd!

He takes the sin and casts it far from Him into the depths of the sea never to be remembered against the person again.

If the person can commit that same sin again, then God's Word is a lie in saying it will never be remembered again.

 

Would you send a former alcoholic to do evangelism in a place where drinks are sold? I know I wouldn't! Not every believer is able to do every ministry, otherwise God would not have put those lists of spiritual gifts in the NT.

But never mind that, who says it has to be about former sins? It can be about present sins of a believer. There are many people who are believers who are simply not equipped to handle kids. They are not pedophiles, but may be immature, lacking the proper character traits, too strict, not strict enough, etc. Having been involved in many different children's ministries over the years (Sunday School, AWANA, camp, etc.), I can tell you that children't work can be very difficult, sometimes very frustrating. If I have in my church a believer who has a short temper or who gets frustrated, there is no way in the world I would allow him or her to be in a children's ministry!

What about someone who is a wonderful Christian and likes to hug a lot? This is perfectly all right among adults, and even a good thing with your own kids. However, in the climate of the day simply hugging a child can get you sued, as can swatting a kid who is bad! A lawsuit like that can bankrupt a church, can lose the building and much of the money given to the Lord by God's good people. Therefore, a wise pastor will train his workers never to touch a child in any way, and to call the pastor and parents when a discipline problem occurs.