ServingHim
New Member
npetreley said:
2Peter 3:9 ¶ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
(KJV)
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Dr. Luke—the Proto-Reformed Theologian
- Thread starter The Archangel
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2Peter 3:9 ¶ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
(KJV)
Jarthur001
Active Member
hummScarlett O. said:
lets see...
so the blessing found in 16..."that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."....only applies to the disciples?
so in other words....you feel the "Comforter"...or Holy Spirit, was only sent to the disciples??
That is strange. Same passage....no break.
so in other words the verses before the verse you wish to change, does not apply to you?????
Like this verse
Only the disciples are branches...not you?
so in other words...chapter 15, 16 and 17 do not apply to you at all? You feel this was only addressing the disciples? All three chapters are from the same setting...same context.
Humm that is strange indeed
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Jarthur001
Active Member
skypair said:
You are not a disciple? I am. if you remove that one verse...you must remove all 3 chapters.
Which will it be???
lets talk context
Jarthur001
Active Member
BTW...maybe you should read my quote below. same context.
npetreley said:
It has been obvious to me that C's and A's will NEVER agree...at least here on the BB. I generally avoid these threads. So I am not trying to convince you of anything. (I know that won't happen.) I just have a question.
Am I correct in interpreting the following passages the way that you and other C's do?
Acts 2:21 - "And it shall come to pass that whosoever (of us) shall call(because God makes us do it) on the name of the Lord shall be saved?
Do you interpret all of the "whosoevers" as "whosoever (of the elect)". I ask that because there are an awful lot of "whosoevers" in the New Testament.
pinoybaptist said:
Yes, God is completely Sovereign.
pinoybaptist said:
I'll ask you what I asked npetreley. Do you interpret all of the "whosoevers" in the New Testament as "whosoever (of the elect)"?
pinoybaptist said:
You are correct here also. Salvation is not a program like Vacation Bible School or the Boys Club. We don't "win" salvation". It is a gift of grace.
pinoybaptist said:
Ah, here we differ. There are no nameless, faceless sinners.
I am a sinner. I have a face. I have a name. It's Kim.
God knew my face and knew my name and knew that on that hot August Sunday morning in 1970 when He whispered an understanding of who He is and that He wanted me for His own child that I would say yes in obedience to Him.
And He knew all of this before He ever said "Let there be Light!".
That is the meaning of the biblical principal that God foreknew me or fore-loved me.
At the exact same time, God knew the face and the name of Adolph Hitler. He knew before He ever created the first star that Adolph Hitler would reject the call of God to salvation. He knew that he would not accept the shed blood of Jesus Christ.
Adolph Hitler's sins were paid for on the cross. But Adolph Hitler was not foreknown (fore-loved) by God because God, in His omniscience, knew in the beginning that Adolph Hitler would reject salvation. Adolph Hitler is in hell.
There are no nameless or faceless people in God's eyes.
pinoybaptist said:
Yes, Jesus knew who would be saved when He was on that cross. And He was acutely aware of each and every one of our sins past, present and future as He suffered on the cross.
I'm not going to convince any of you guys of my non-C belief system nor will any of the scripture that I present to you alter your opinions.
I at least know that. :saint:
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Scarlett O. said:
2 Peter 3:9 comes right out and says "to us-ward", which makes the context of the verse indisputable. Acts 2:21 doesn't say "to us-ward" or "to the elect", so you have to interpret it from a larger context, or in harmony with the rest of the Bible. Shoving "because God makes us do it" in there is not only inappropriate, it is a sarcastic misrepresentation of election.
Scarlett O said:
And what was His knowledge of you, Scarlett O. That you somehow had some good in you, some inherent (mark that word) love for God, some innate (again mark that word) hungering for God, and loathing (watch that word again) for sin ? All your own ?
What caused you to say "yes in obedience to Him", Scarlett O. ?
pinoybaptist said:
Oh, He knew no such thing of me that was inherently or innately good........because I did not have it. The bible says that "There is none good, no not one." You know that.
What He saw in me was putridness. When I was saved, God reached down me, a sinner, foul and bound for hell.
Even on the best days that I had then and have now, I am still a filthy rag compared to God. I didn't deserve for God to offer me salvation....it was a gift to an undeserving child.
What caused me to say "yes" in obedience to him? The same thing that causes others to say "no" in rebellion. You aren't going to like my answer......free will.
Jesus said whosoever (there's that pesky word, again) would confess Him before men that He would confess before God and that whosoever would deny Him before men that He would deny before the Father.
To deny Christ is a conscious act of rebellion. To deny Christ implies that you have openly defied God. Not that God never offered you His grace and mercy, for how can you deny something that you have never been offered, but that He DID offer it and you rebelled. Rebelliousness comes from a stubborn-will. WILL.......free will to choose to be rebellious.
That's the only way I know to explain my belief-system.
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npetreley said:
If you read sarcasm into my post, then I apologize, because I did not intend it. One reason that I avoid these threads is because of the ugly way that people can sometimes treat each other, so my intent wasn't to "misrepresent" you.
Perhaps I don't fully understand what C's mean when they say that there is no free will.
Scarlett O. said:
I differ with Calvinism on some issues, so this is not necessarily a good description of what I believe. However, Calvinists AND Arminians (true Arminians, not the semi-pelagian free-willers on this board) believe man's will has been so corrupted by the fall that it is incapable of turning toward God or even inclining itself to do good or turn toward God. Yes, man can do civil good, but not that is not the same thing as good in the eyes of God. This condition is called Total Depravity, and BOTH Calvinism and Arminianism affirm Total Depravity. The issue here is inclination. Man's will is inclined toward evil, so when man does what he wants, which is what man always does, he does evil.
Arminianism believes that God has given all men just enough grace (it's called preventing grace) to lift man up just a little out of his Total Depravity. Preventing grace doesn't save, but it offsets Total Depravity just enough for man to recognize God's truths and make a free-will decision to accept or reject Christ. You can check your Bible from cover to cover and you'll find no such thing, but this is what Arminians (true Arminians) believe.
Calvinism believes that God changes the inclination of His elect, His sheep, through regeneration (being born from above). This not only reveals to man the truth, but it also changes man's inclination so that he recognizes his sinful state. Given this new understanding, knowledge and inclination, man makes the only decision that makes any sense - to flee to Jesus for refuge. That isn't forcing anyone to turn to Jesus against their will. But it isn't like God just holds out two hands, one with salvation and the other with damnation, and says "pick one of your own free will". Indeed, we are already condemned.
This leads me to an important point: Nobody gets condemned for making the "wrong" choice. We ARE already condemned from the start.
This also means nobody has a right to a "chance" to be saved. To assert that every man deserves a "chance" at grace is to remove all meaning from the word "grace". Grace is something totally unmerited, granted to whomever God wants to give it. Toss in any notion of "it's only fair" or "everyone deserves a chance", and it's no longer grace. The "offer" becomes an obligation.
Jarthur001
Active Member
As npetreley has well stated, Calvinist do believe man has a will, but the sinful will of man is not free, but rather bound in sin. This enslavement by mans sin nature, makes man believe he has no need for God. Therefore choice of God is not a option to the sin bound will. Man will think he is not that bad and does not need "saved" from his sins. This "i'm not that bad, I'm a pretty good guy", is just a part of the enslavement found in the sin bound will of man. Another way in which the boundage works, is that sinful man tells himself that he will chose God another day, but will wait to sin more before he chooses God. In this way mans will is seen in action, but his love for sin will always make sin the choice over God. So God really is not a choice at all.
In both cases sin has controled the heart of man into not chosing God. Man loves sin to much to chose God. And/or Man wants to be in control, and not be under Gods rules, but fails to see it is sin that controls him and he is under Gods rule anyway.
So if God left man to his will to chose God, this would be very crude of God for man does not have the power to overcome the power of sin. Yes, they can live a good life and be a good person, but with this comes pride and pride is sin. Man just cannot stop sinning on his own. If God did not step in and break the will of man, man would never believe for sin controls mans will.
Again as npetreley has stated, in regeneration the Holy Spirit, pulls back the blindness and control of sin found in all man, and allows man to see their need for God. This is not forcing man to be saved, but rather it is the Holy Spirit working in the heart of man, to show that they do need God to save them from their sins. When man sees his need for salvation, when he sees Christ as his only hope, when he sees himself as a sinner, when he sees his sins as a problem that he can not address on his own, when he knows that he must wait no longer, he then believes and places all of his faith and hope in Christ to save him from this sin. This pulling back of the sin wall...this unblinding of the blind....this light from God, is the work of the Holy Spirit as man clearly sees for the 1st time his need for salvation. Yes...he is now a believer...for how could he resist? The person must believe, just as the Bible tells us.
I want to point out also....we are saved from SIN, not saved from going to hell. In free-willism, the easy believeism that goes hand in hand with Free-willism, tells the sinner he is saved from hell.
In both cases sin has controled the heart of man into not chosing God. Man loves sin to much to chose God. And/or Man wants to be in control, and not be under Gods rules, but fails to see it is sin that controls him and he is under Gods rule anyway.
So if God left man to his will to chose God, this would be very crude of God for man does not have the power to overcome the power of sin. Yes, they can live a good life and be a good person, but with this comes pride and pride is sin. Man just cannot stop sinning on his own. If God did not step in and break the will of man, man would never believe for sin controls mans will.
Again as npetreley has stated, in regeneration the Holy Spirit, pulls back the blindness and control of sin found in all man, and allows man to see their need for God. This is not forcing man to be saved, but rather it is the Holy Spirit working in the heart of man, to show that they do need God to save them from their sins. When man sees his need for salvation, when he sees Christ as his only hope, when he sees himself as a sinner, when he sees his sins as a problem that he can not address on his own, when he knows that he must wait no longer, he then believes and places all of his faith and hope in Christ to save him from this sin. This pulling back of the sin wall...this unblinding of the blind....this light from God, is the work of the Holy Spirit as man clearly sees for the 1st time his need for salvation. Yes...he is now a believer...for how could he resist? The person must believe, just as the Bible tells us.
I want to point out also....we are saved from SIN, not saved from going to hell. In free-willism, the easy believeism that goes hand in hand with Free-willism, tells the sinner he is saved from hell.
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Huh???Jarthur001 said:
Are you going to hell?? Are you sinless or will you any time soon be so??
Wasn't Paul saved and yet saying "Who shall save me from the body of this death?" -- from the law of sin in his flesh, Rom 7:23-24 In 7:25 he said he STILL served "the law of sin." What are you talking about??
skypair
Untrue. It is "the soul that sinneth, it shall surely die." Infants haven't sinned nor did they nor can they make a choice --- nor are they condemned.npetreley said:
See, here's where you and PL, perhaps others, are mistaken. We are NOT saved by "grace." We are saved by Christ.
The way you express it, there was no need of Christ so long as God "chose" you. And, in fact, that is probably what you believe as Calvinists ignore the fact that there was no Christ for the OT saints to receive or believe in. This is just errant theology, guys.
skypair
Jarthur001
Active Member
skypair said:
What?
By the grace of God..No. The reason is tat my sins have been forgiven.
Sinless? No!! Justified? Yes!!
Christ was the atonement...or ransom for the sins of the elect. Paid for in full. All sins that are paid for at the moment of the atonement. Man does not need to the approve the atonement for Christ work to be done. Christ payment for our sins was finished at His death. Ransom means we are not our own, and that we belong to him. From the slave market of sin, to the servent of God.
Indeed it was...
This is the full context..
"For the good which I would I do not, and the evil which I would not, that I do." For which also the same man exclaims with a sigh "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"
Paul is showing us how he still has to battle with sin...and always will. Works be they good or bad will not get us into heaven. It is the blood of Christ that covers our sin that makes us justified.
yes...out sin nature stays with us.
This is called salvation. Sin places us in hell. Sins that are "covered by the blood" cannot be seen by God the Father, and so guilt is gone.
Jarthur,
I can accept all but this (you were apparently talking about saving us from sin's consequences in eternity, right?):
skypair
I can accept all but this (you were apparently talking about saving us from sin's consequences in eternity, right?):
You DO have to "approve" the application of Christ's atonement to YOUR sin. We can't think of life as just a series of "dates" with the One who asks us to "marry" Him, now can we?
skypair
Jarthur001
Active Member
Gomer did not have a say so did she? Salvation was by her Lord, and Gomer had nothing to do with it. The book of Hosea is the full picture of salvation. Hosea bought Gomer from the slave market, just as Christ did on the cross toward us.skypair said:
Hosea 3:1 "The LORD said to me, "Go, show your love to your wife again, though she is loved by another and is an adulteress. Love her as the LORD loves the Israelites, though they turn to other gods and love the sacred raisin cakes." {2} So I bought her for fifteen shekels of silver and about a homer and a lethek of barley. {3} Then I told her, "You are to live with me many days; you must not be a prostitute or be intimate with any man, and I will live with you." {4} For the Israelites will live many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred stones, without ephod or idol. {5} Afterward the Israelites will return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They will come trembling to the LORD and to his blessings in the last days."
I think I may go with the Bible on this one. "it is finished" was Hs cry.
Now read this next verse....
What?? yes it says Israel..the real Israel did not obtain saving grace...even though they were seeking for it. If this be true..and it is...how do you obtain saving grace?
Saving grace comes through election.
So... "the rest that were blinded"...can they become a believer? Or can saving grace come though only the election of God as this verse clearly says?
so....who chooses who?
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Scarlett O. -- I was browsing the table of the Westminster and London Baptist Confessions, and came across this description of man's fallen will (total depravity). I think this quote from the London Baptist Confession describes it better than I did:
I know this wasn't something we discussed, but this next quote is directed at those who claim we are elect because of foreseen faith. The London Bapist Confession rules that out entirely:
I know this wasn't something we discussed, but this next quote is directed at those who claim we are elect because of foreseen faith. The London Bapist Confession rules that out entirely: