Dr. Stanley and Eternal Security

[Hope of Glory]

Those who are not invited (Satan)

So, Satan is capable of sneaking in without anyone knowing it, and he's called "friend"?

I perceive you are either self taught or man taught but definitely not Spirit taught on this.

I assume that you resort to the attack of those who have no Scriptural foundation because he looks at what Scriptures actually say instead of toeing the Gospel according to Skypair line?

Why not post some Scripture showing where he's wrong? He's posted plenty supporting his claims.

But, I've had elders actually use the words, "I don't care what the Bible says". They also said you had to be led by the Spirit, even if it contradicts what the Bible says.

Friend, that's not the Holy Spirit.

 

[Hope of Glory]

J. Jump;

This just proves you called me a liar for nothing.

No, he's calling you a liar because you keep claiming that he doesn't consider Christ his king, which is a lie, whether intentional or not on your part. But, just as those who gathered themselves around David as their king, even when he did not yet have a kingdom, J. Jump considers Christ his King, even though he has not yet ascended the throne.

A LOT OF PEOPLE BELIEVE IN THOUSAND YEAR REIGN YET TO COME EVEN THOUGH IT WAS CONSIDERED HERESY UNTIL 150 YEARS AGO, BUT YOU ARE THE FIRST I FOUND WHO DOES NOT BELIEVE........NNE IS GOING TO HEAVEN.

Then you need to pay better attention. It's a pretty common belief. I neither accept nor reject it because the Scriptures are pretty vague about anything after the age to come. But, it's a very common teaching, and I am only aware of it in particular among Baptists, although I have been told that it's taught in other denominations as well.

BTW, if you go back far enough, the Millennial reign debate (as well as pre-trib, OSAS, etc.) have been argued for at least 1600 years that I am aware of. Probably longer. (OK, probably 6000 years, but I'm not aware of specifics.)

 

[Hope of Glory]

Glad to hear you say, it can mean "past tense".

He has never said otherwise. Why do you keep accusing people of saying things they never said?

In fact, it can usually be past tense.

However, as Ed has pointed out, there's a future aorist, which is still punctiliar action, but it has yet to happen.

Also, there's a prophetic past (which the correct name eludes me at the moment), in which a vision is relayed in such a way as the events have already happened, though they are yet future. IOW, if were to receive a vision about Ed driving a car off a bridge, I would relay: "I had a vision: In that vision, Ed drove his car off a bridge." Past tense for future event.

BTW, Ed, I think it's "Keeting", not "Keating", but I could be mistaken.

 

[Brother Bob]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Bob
J. Jump;

This just proves you called me a liar for nothing.


No, he's calling you a liar because you keep claiming that he doesn't consider Christ his king, which is a lie, whether intentional or not on your part. But, just as those who gathered themselves around David as their king, even when he did not yet have a kingdom, J. Jump considers Christ his King, even though he has not yet ascended the throne.
It is not a lie either. He may call Him King, but does not believe he will be a King over a Kingdom until the end. You could call yourself a doctor, don't make you one though, unless you stayed in the holiday inn last night, then.........


Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Bob
A LOT OF PEOPLE BELIEVE IN THOUSAND YEAR REIGN YET TO COME EVEN THOUGH IT WAS CONSIDERED HERESY UNTIL 150 YEARS AGO, BUT YOU ARE THE FIRST I FOUND WHO DOES NOT BELIEVE........NNE IS GOING TO HEAVEN.


Then you need to pay better attention. It's a pretty common belief. I neither accept nor reject it because the Scriptures are pretty vague about anything after the age to come. But, it's a very common teaching, and I am only aware of it in particular among Baptists, although I have been told that it's taught in other denominations as well.
It is not a common belief either. I doubt if there are any one BB that believes that, except J.J and maybe you.


BTW, if you go back far enough, the Millennial reign debate (as well as pre-trib, OSAS, etc.) have been argued for at least 1600 years that I am aware of. Probably longer. (OK, probably 6000 years, but I'm not aware of specifics.)

Millennial reign goes back for many years alright but was considered "heretic" by most.
__________________
If you're busy doing nothing, how do you know when you're finished?

That about covers it.

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
Glad to hear you say, it can mean "past tense".

He has never said otherwise. Why do you keep accusing people of saying things they never said?
Why do you feel you have to protect J. Jump, can't he defend himself or does he need a care taker?

In fact, it can usually be past tense.

Glad to hear it can usually be "past" tense.

However, as Ed has pointed out, there's a future aorist, which is still punctiliar action, but it has yet to happen.

And how do you proved "lived" and "reigned" is not past tense.

Also, there's a prophetic past (which the correct name eludes me at the moment), in which a vision is relayed in such a way as the events have already happened, though they are yet future. IOW, if were to receive a vision about Ed driving a car off a bridge, I would relay: "I had a vision: In that vision, Ed drove his car off a bridge." Past tense for future event.
You vision does not work for as J. Jump has already admitted, the child born of the woman was Jesus, which was "past" tense, even before the cross.

BTW, did I understand you right that you don't know if we going to live in Heaven or not?

 

[EdSutton]

BTW, Ed, I think it's "Keeting", not "Keating", but I could be mistaken.

By Corey Keating at http://www.ntgreek.org/

That is the copywrited site of Corey Keating.

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
Glad to hear you say, it can mean "past tense".

He has never said otherwise. Why do you keep accusing people of saying things they never said?
Why do you feel you have to protect J. Jump, can't he defend himself or does he need a care taker?

Since I'm the one who actually said this, and to whom your first response was toward, why do you now attribute this to J. Jump? Why, once again, blame J. Jump for something I said? Looks to me like someone made a mistake again. I'll let the readers figure out who that someone was.

I have work to do. Sorry, I cannot play anymore in your sandbox for a while.

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

Since I'm the one who actually said this, and to whom your first response was toward, why do you now attribute this to J. Jump? Why blame me, once again, on J. Jump? Looks to me like someone made a mistake again. I have work to do. Sorry, I cannot play anymore in your sandbox for a while.

Ed

I believe I was responding to what Hope in Glory said to me. I didn't see your name in it anywhere.

Quote:

Aorist
Simple (or ‘Summary’) Occurrence
past​

Is this what you meant to say Ed?
J.Jump; I have to give it to you Brother Bob. You sure are trying hard! However this doesn't change the fact that the genre of the writing is prophetic vision, which means it didn't take place in the past in REALITY.

Pretty close to saying it did not mean past.

If you are in a sandbox, you do need to get out of it. You are too old for that.

You still did not answer the question?

1. Do you believe that the saved will not spend eternity in Heaven?? That is a simple question Ed?

I need to know if who I am discussing these posts with, actually believes we are going to Heaven to Live or not.

 

[EdSutton]

One more thing. I have never denied that "we go to heaven", BTW. In fact I believe that. To be absent form the body; to be present with the Lord. However I do not believe it in the same way as do most A-millenialists, as disembodied souls and spirits floating around there for all eternity. (BTW, the A-millenial view does not have any answer to why is there any need for the Bema, if there is only one all-encompassing judgment, and one all encompassing 'resurrection', but that is for another day.) There is promised a resurrection of our bodies, which are changed. Revelation also speaks of the New Jerusalem, the bride of the Lamb, descending from heaven onto a new earth, wherein dwells righteousness, and which is where, I presume, the Lord Jesus is to be, as well. I'm gonna' be there.

I'm not gonna' be some etheral disembodied soul floating around in the ether, somewhere.

Bye. Gotta' go to the shop.

My guess is that this thread will be closed by the time I can return, as it will have hit 30 pages, but we shall see.

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

One more thing. I have never denied that "we go to heaven", BTW. In fact I believe that. To be absent form the body; to be present with the Lord. However I do not believe it in the same way as do most A-millenialists, as disembodied souls and spirits floating around there for all eternity. (BTW, the A-millenial view does not have any answer to why is there any need for the Bema, if there is only one all-encompassing judgment, and one all encompassing 'resurrection', but that is for another day.) There is promised a resurrection of our bodies, which are changed. Revelation also speaks of the New Jerusalem, the bride of the Lamb, descending from heaven onto a new earth, wherein dwells righteousness, and which is where, I presume, the Lord Jesus is to be, as well. I'm gonna' be there. (wonder if it was a vision of that Holy City coming down, being that John was seeing visions) Where does it say decending from heaven onto a new earth?)

I'm not gonna' be some etheral disembodied soul floating around in the ether, somewhere.

Bye. Gotta' go to the shop.

1 Thes 4:
13: But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14: For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18: Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

I am A-millenial only in the thousand years already past.

 

[Hope of Glory]

That is the copywrited site of Corey Keating.

Ed

That's why I said, "I could be mistaken".:laugh: I didn't feel like looking it up, and I was apparently thinking of a Catholic guy named "Keeting".

 

[Hope of Glory]

I believe I was responding to what Hope in Glory said to me. I didn't see your name in it anywhere.

It was in response to what you said to Ed about the aorist. So, although his name was not in my post, his quote was, that you misquoted.

Pretty close to saying it did not mean past.

Saying "it does not always mean past" is not the same things as saying "it does not [ever] mean past".

1. Do you believe that the saved will not spend eternity in Heaven?? That is a simple question Ed?

I don't think Ed has made a statement on this.

I need to know if who I am discussing these posts with, actually believes we are going to Heaven to Live or not.

Well, the coming Kingdom has an earthly Kingdom and a heavenly Kingdom. We can have an earthly inheritance or a heavenly inheritance, with the heavenly inheritance being the greater.

But, the Kingdom rule is limited in duration.

The Bible is not definitive on what happens after that. I take no stand one way or the other on the issue, since I have not seen where the Bible says so.

 

[skypair]

Skypair; you post all those scriptures and cause me to have to look each on up to see if it made any sense and they were all off the mark, and had nothing to do with the thousand year reign. It was just Skypair doctrine all the way.

Two words for you, Bob: 1) "Instaverse" Google and download it so that all you have to do is put your cursor over the verse to read it in a sanitized popup window. 2) Those verses speak of Messiah's coming to "judge" prior to the MK.

You apparently are new to eschatology or you would recognize that Israel was expecting to be resurrected and live in Messiah's kingdom (which we find is 1000 years). I suppose in that regard, I have just further confused you. Sorry.

skypair

 

[skypair]

[BHogwash. Don't you believe the words of Jesus Himself, He is the Resurrection and I believe He knows more about than you or me.

He is "the resurrection" alright. Too bad the significance of that statement is lost on you. He is the resurrection because He is born of the Spirit -- just as the OT saints will be "in the last day" Martha referred to. Their bodies will be resurrected to life by the Spirit that Jesus was born of. They will live the life of Jesus on earth as men in "bodies of terrestrial glory." Then they will be raptured like Christ was to "celestial glory."

Jhn 5:28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Jhn 5:29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Jesus basically quoting Dan 12:1c-2, another preMK prophecy that puts the OT saints into the 1000 year reign of Christ (I forgot to "source" that one. :saint: Thanks!) Is it not obvious to you by now that they will each (both good and evil) have their "hour?" Not the same "hour?"

You are adding the thousand years and you give me scripture where anyone will be in the thousand year reign, except "beheaded souls".

Rev 2:26-27 says some of Thyatira will be there ruling with Christ with "a rod of iron." Look up Psa 2:9 and tell me when that is. Oh, by jove, it's in the MK (Psa 2:6)!!

Please, Bob. Don't try to teach your version of eschatology until you have studied the word more closely. I don't know how significant Hymenaeous heresy was but Paul "delivered him unto Satan that he learn not to blaspheme." 1Tim 1:20.

Do you deny that the Kingdom exists within the believers also?

Of course not! Anywhere God is, the Kingdom is present (in this case, God the Holy Spirit)!

Bob, you are getting overwrought. Please temper your replies with some thoughtful, not emotional, comments.

skypair

 

[skypair]

So, Satan is capable of sneaking in without anyone knowing it, and he's called "friend"?

Actually, yes. Remember, he was "booted" from heaven in Rev 12 but he will not have been cast into the pit until postrib, Rev 20:2, for the 1000 year reign of Christ.

And those who know what Christ is doing are called "friend" (John 15:!5) including Judas Escariot, present when Jesus said that -- whose spirit Satan/AC is. Do you believe that AC will be a Jew with Judas spirit "from the bottomless pit" (Rev 11:7, 17:8) indwelling him? Do you believe that David spoke of him -- "own familiar friend" -- in Psa 41:9? That's who shows up "uninvited," HoG. Judas/AC/Satan.

Not to make it an issue, but you really don't understand the parables, do you?

Your other comments I will chalk up to "you know not what you do."

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Bob
I believe I was responding to what Hope in Glory said to me. I didn't see your name in it anywhere.


It was in response to what you said to Ed about the aorist. So, although his name was not in my post, his quote was, that you misquoted.

Maybe you could give me the exact quote? I guess that is where some of the confusion is, when someone answers for another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Bob
Pretty close to saying it did not mean past.


Saying "it does not always mean past" is not the same things as saying "it does not [ever] mean past".

Maybe you could help me out here also, where did I say "it does not mean past" compared to "it does not ever mean past"? We are playing with words here, are we not. Seems to me you are just being disagreeable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Bob
1. Do you believe that the saved will not spend eternity in Heaven?? That is a simple question Ed?


I don't think Ed has made a statement on this.

What do you think, was the statement to me or was the statement to you? If it was to me what did it say and if it was too you, then its up to you to answer him, right?

Well, the coming Kingdom has an earthly Kingdom and a heavenly Kingdom. We can have an earthly inheritance or a heavenly inheritance, with the heavenly inheritance being the greater.

But, the Kingdom rule is limited in duration.

The Bible is not definitive on what happens after that. I take no stand one way or the other on the issue, since I have not seen where the Bible says so.
__________________

Jesus says "eternity" and you say there is a limited duration.

So, according to you if we go to Heaven to live eternity, we can't teach the congregation to repent and be born again and they can go to Heaven, for we don't know anything about where we are going to go, for the bible is silent on the issue, but we do know where the wicked will go, they will go to the "lake of fire", which is the second death, except we don't know where it is, right?

 

[Brother Bob]

Is intraverse what tells you that all those scriptures you keep quoting, pertains to the 1000 year reign? So whosoever developed this computer program, was already sold on the 1000 year reign at the end of time.

Not too many years ago, I could of had you boys "hanged" for heresy. I really had not intent of having a heated discussion with you Skypair, until you jumped in. I have watched you for some time and agree with much you have to say, but on this completely disagree, except for the Kingdom is already here.

Do you know of a program that refutes the 1000 year reign, I could pick up some good quotes from it.

You apparently are new to eschatology or you would recognize that Israel was expecting to be resurrected and live in Messiah's kingdom (which we find is 1000 years). I suppose in that regard, I have just further confused you. Sorry.

skypair

Not at all Skypair, I have delt with this thousand year doctrine for over 34 years. I never knew I had as much support for centuries, until I started research on the net. To be honest, it is not hardly ever brought up around here, I know some believe in it and others do not. We do not fight over it. Its only on BB the worst seems to be drawn out of us by others pulling the wrong strings on purpose, calling names. I never been called a liar so much in my life until I came on BB. Thank God there is only a couple who do that though. I show more courtesy than that. Others have misquoted me many times, I would not dream of calling them a liar. Man is just human and does make mistakes but a "lie" it to try and deceive someone with an untruth. It is the intent of the one who made the remark, not the receiver, that determines whether its a lie or not. But when others start losing by scripture, they turn to "name calling".

I am afraid to find who "we" is, and where did you find it would be a 1000 years?

There is no confusion on my part. I just don't believe it!

Quote:
Jhn 5:28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Jhn 5:29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Jesus basically quoting Dan 12:1c-2, another preMK prophecy that puts the OT saints into the 1000 year reign of Christ (I forgot to "source" that one. :saint: Thanks!) Is it not obvious to you by now that they will each (both good and evil) have their "hour?" Not the same "hour?"

No, its obvious to me that they will be raised to either resurrection of LIFE, or they will be raised resurrection of DAMNATION,
isn't that obvious to you. Also, can't you understand that it will be ALL that are in the grave will come forth?

Quote:
You are adding the thousand years and you give me scripture where anyone will be in the thousand year reign, except "beheaded souls".
Rev 2:26-27 says some of Thyatira will be there ruling with Christ with "a rod of iron." Look up Psa 2:9 and tell me when that is. Oh, by jove, it's in the MK (Psa 2:6)!!

Please, Bob. Don't try to teach your version of eschatology until you have studied the word more closely. I don't know how significant Hymenaeous heresy was but Paul "delivered him unto Satan that he learn not to blaspheme." 1Tim 1:20.

Why not teach my version of eschatology, they taught it for nineteen hundred years until your boy, John Darby came along.

Undoubtable they forgot to put that in Rev 20:4, too bad we have no way of letting them know they left part of the word off? At least we have the Skypair doctrine.

Quote:
Do you deny that the Kingdom exists within the believers also?
Of course not! Anywhere God is, the Kingdom is present (in this case, God the Holy Spirit)!

Bob, you are getting overwrought. Please temper your replies with some thoughtful, not emotional, comments.

skypair

Lord help me not to be emotional when I tell Skypair, he finally got something right, that the Kingdom is already here. I suspect if he believes that then he must believe Christ is the King of that Kingdom. I pray that is the case dear Lord.

Only problem I see overall Skypair, is that it don't compare with the doctrine Jesus taught at all. We will all have to make a decision, to either accept what Jesus said, or accept the Skypair doctrine!

Skypair, you failed to answer one question. Will the righteous live in Heaven where God is?

 

[Brother Bob]

Just a few who are against the doctrine of Skypair, Hope of Glory and J. Jump.
and as others have walked, now BBob walks, by His Grace........

John Calvin (1536)
"But a little later there followed the chiliasts, who limited the reign of Christ to a thousand years. Now their fiction is too childish either to need or to be worth a refutation. And the Apocalypse, from which they undoubtedly drew a pretext for their error does not support them. For the number "one thousand" (Rev. 20:4) does not apply to the eternal blessedness of the church but only to the various disturbances that awaited the church, while still toiling on earth."

C.H. Spurgeon (1865)
"Those who wish to see the arguments upon the unpopular side of the great question at issue, will find them here; this is probably one of the ablest of the accessible treatises from that point of view. We cannot agree with Mr. Young, neither can we refute him. It might tax the ingenuity of the ablest prophetical writers to solve all the difficulties here started, and perhaps it would be unprofitable to attempt the task.

Augustine (354-430) viewed the thousand years of Revelation 20 not as some special future time but "the period beginning with Christ's first coming," that is, the age of the Christian church. Throughout this age, the saints reign with Christ—not in the fullness of the coming kingdom prepared for those blessed by God the Father, but "in some other and far inferior way." This position, often called "amillennial," became the view of most Christians in the West, including the Reformers, for almost 1,500 years."

Daniel Whitby (1703)
"The doctrine of the Millennium was never generally received in the church of Christ " (Daniel Whitby, "A Treatise on the True Millennium," in Patrick, Lowth, Arnald, Whitby, and Lowman, Commentary on the Gospels and Epistles of the New Testament, 4 vols. (Philadelphia, PA: Carey and Hart, 1845), vol. 4, p. 1118.)

"The doctrine of the millennium was not the general doctrine of the primitive church from the times of the apostles to the Nicene council . . . for then it could have made no schism in the church, as Dionysius of Alexandria saith it did." (Ibid., pp. 1122-23. He cites Dionysius 5:6; Eusebius, Eccl. Hist. 7:24.)
Philip Schaff (1877)

"Though millenialism was supressed by the early church, it was nevertheless from time to time revived by heretical sects." (Schaff's History, pg. 299 )

J. Marcellus Kik (1971)
"The premillenialist, however, maintains as a cardinal and fundamental tenet of his system of eschatology that the throne of glory is an earthly throne set up in the material city of Jerusalem. The temporal throne of David is to be reconstructed in Jerusalem... As a matter of fact there is not one passage in the New Testament which gives definite information of a personal reign of Christ upon a temporal throne in the material city of Jerusalem! What seems to be hidden to the apostles have been revealed by uninspired men." (An Eschatology of Victory, 171)

Alexander Brown
"Let us not forget that once in the Church's history it was the common belief that John's 1000 years were gone. Dorner bears witness that the Church up to Constantine understood by Antichrist chiefly the heathen state, and to some extent unbelieving Judaism (System iv.,390). Victorinus, a bishop martyred in 303, reckoned the 1000 years from the birth of Christ.
Augustine wrote his magnum opus 'the City of God' with a sort of dim perception of the identity of the Christian Church with the new Jerusalem. Indeed we know that the 1000 years were held to be running by the generations previous to that date, and so intense was their faith that the universal Church was in a ferment of excitement about and shortly after 1000 A.D. in expectation of the outbreak of Satanic influence. Wickliff, the reformer, believed that Satan had been unbound at the end of the 1000 years, and was intensely active in his day. That this period in Church history is past, or now runs its course, has been the belief of a roll of eminent men too long to be chronicled on our pages of Augustine, Luther, Bossuet, Cocceius, Grotius, Hammond, Hengstenberg, Keil, Moses Stuart, Philippi, Maurice." (Alexander Brown, Great Day of the Lord, p. 216.)

 

[skypair]

Is intraverse what tells you that all those scriptures you keep quoting, pertains to the 1000 year reign?

It's a Bible tool, Bob. It merely gives the KJV text (or you can pay and get the NIV, I think). Stop dealing dishonestly here, would you?

Not too many years ago, I could of had you boys "hanged" for heresy. I really had not intent of having a heated discussion with you Skypair, until you jumped in. I have watched you for some time and agree with much you have to say, but on this completely disagree, except for the Kingdom is already here.

Being "delivered over to Satan" is basically excommunication, not "hanging," Bob. And I jumped in on account of your false witness. I don't want to see a brother err and ruin his otherwise excellent credibility. I "hate the garment spotted by the flesh."

Not at all Skypair, I have delt with this thousand year doctrine for over 34 years. I never knew I had as much support for centuries, until I started research on the net. To be honest, it is not hardly ever brought up around here, I know some believe in it and others do not...

I have my differences with HoG and JJ as well. But as you know, their "theory" is more convoluted --- even more deceptive (along the lines of the Catholic AC) than a simple denial of the MK.

I am afraid to find who "we" is, and where did you find it would be a 1000 years?

Almost every orthodox Southern Baptist is "we." Rev 20:2, 3, & 7 is where the 1000 years is found. I know you don't like dispensationalism but this is an instance where you should reconsider. Christ/Messiah WILL have an earthly, physical kingdom in which He will rule the whole world. He doesn't now -- He rules an invisible kingdom of believers.

No, its obvious to me that they will be raised to either resurrection of LIFE, or they will be raised resurrection of DAMNATION, isn't that obvious to you. Also, can't you understand that it will be ALL that are in the grave will come forth?

I realize that ALL will make an accounting. However, there are at least 3 judgment seats -- the Bema for the church (1Cor 3:13-15, 2Cor 5:10) IN HEAVEN pretrib, the 12 thrones for Israel (Mt 19:28 = Rev 20:4) ON THE EARTH postrib and a third, the great white throne (Rev 20:11-12) after the 1000 years. So how do you see these 3 judgments all happening at one resurrection??

Why not teach my version of eschatology, they taught it for nineteen hundred years until your boy, John Darby came along.

Do you really know the history of this? Or are you just making ignorant, sarcastic remarks?? The "millennial" idea was dropped around the 4th or 5th century on account of it was one of the major teaching of the Montanist heresy --- and so "the baby was thrown out with the bathwater," Bob. The other reason it was not so appealing is that the OT references to that kingdom has ISRAEL, not the church, ruling over the earth. What you have mainly done it take away Israel's inheritance.

If the Bible says Satan is bound "till the thousand years be fulfilled," what 1000 years is John talking about and why do you say the earthly Millennial (1000 year) Kingdom of Christ was not taught until Darby?? Do you just ignore Rev 20:2, 3, 7??

Skypair, you failed to answer one question. Will the righteous live in Heaven where God is?

Actually, scripture says it is more complicated than that. Scripture says we, the church, will be raptured from life or from the grave, to the Bema judgment and our rewards in New Jerusalem -- the "place prepared" by Christ when He went to heaven, John 14:1-4. We will return with Christ briefly after 7 years (the 70th week of Daniel) to "judge" Israel. Then we will return to NJ above till the 1000 years is fulfilled at which time believers of the MK will be raptured to join us while God "renews" the earth. Then we shall come down in it (Rev 21) to the rejoining of Israel to God. They will inherit the earth and we abide in NJ with God (Rev 21:3-4, 22:1).

I hope this has been enlightening to you. You are, as you can see, very far from having the answers.

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Bob
Is intraverse what tells you that all those scriptures you keep quoting, pertains to the 1000 year reign?

It's a Bible tool, Bob. It merely gives the KJV text (or you can pay and get the NIV, I think). Stop dealing dishonestly here, would you?

I am not dealing dishonest, you are being dishonest saying so. I use the Bible and every thing I quote is Bible. Could be you been using too many "tools" and not the Bible is why you believe as you do.

Quote:
Not too many years ago, I could of had you boys "hanged" for heresy. I really had not intent of having a heated discussion with you Skypair, until you jumped in. I have watched you for some time and agree with much you have to say, but on this completely disagree, except for the Kingdom is already here.
Being "delivered over to Satan" is basically excommunication, not "hanging," Bob. And I jumped in on account of your false witness. I don't want to see a brother err and ruin his otherwise excellent credibility. I "hate the garment spotted by the flesh."

In other words, I should accept the Skypair doctrine. No thanks, when you use parables as resurrections.

Quote:
Not at all Skypair, I have delt with this thousand year doctrine for over 34 years. I never knew I had as much support for centuries, until I started research on the net. To be honest, it is not hardly ever brought up around here, I know some believe in it and others do not...
I have my differences with HoG and JJ as well. But as you know, their "theory" is more convoluted --- even more deceptive (along the lines of the Catholic AC) than a simple denial of the MK.

So do I, and I sure am not going to accept the thousand year reign yet to come. Have you ever thought that it don't even make sense.

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I am afraid to find who "we" is, and where did you find it would be a 1000 years?
Almost every orthodox Southern Baptist is "we." Rev 20:2, 3, & 7 is where the 1000 years is found. I know you don't like dispensationalism but this is an instance where you should reconsider. Christ/Messiah WILL have an earthly, physical kingdom in which He will rule the whole world. He doesn't now -- He rules an invisible kingdom of believers.

And that is one reason we never would join or have part with Southern Baptist.

No, its obvious to me that they will be raised to either resurrection of LIFE, or they will be raised resurrection of DAMNATION, isn't that obvious to you. Also, can't you understand that it will be ALL that are in the grave will come forth? I realize that ALL will make an accounting. However, there are at least 3 judgment seats -- the Bema for the church (1Cor 3:13-15, 2Cor 5:10) IN HEAVEN pretrib, the 12 thrones for Israel (Mt 19:28 = Rev 20:4) ON THE EARTH postrib and a third, the great white throne (Rev 20:11-12) after the 1000 years. So how do you see these 3 judgments all happening at one resurrection??

I accept the part where the Lord will say "come ye blessed of my Father" or he will say "depart ye that work inquity, I never knew you".

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Why not teach my version of eschatology, they taught it for nineteen hundred years until your boy, John Darby came along.
Do you really know the history of this? Or are you just making ignorant, sarcastic remarks?? The "millennial" idea was dropped around the 4th or 5th century on account of it was one of the major teaching of the Montanist heresy --- and so "the baby was thrown out with the bathwater," Bob. The other reason it was not so appealing is that the OT references to that kingdom has ISRAEL, not the church, ruling over the earth. What you have mainly done it take away Israel's inheritance.

If the Bible says Satan is bound "till the thousand years be fulfilled," what 1000 years is John talking about and why do you say the earthly Millennial (1000 year) Kingdom of Christ was not taught until Darby?? Do you just ignore Rev 20:2, 3, 7??

Even you said the "Kingdom is within you" Are you taking it back now. Also, the 1000 years ended when Christ arose and many of the bodies arose with Him which was the rest of the dead, or the bodies of those beheaded souls.

Actually, scripture says it is more complicated than that. Scripture says we, the church, will be raptured from life or from the grave, to the Bema judgment and our rewards in New Jerusalem -- the "place prepared" by Christ when He went to heaven, John 14:1-4. We will return with Christ briefly after 7 years (the 70th week of Daniel) to "judge" Israel. Then we will return to NJ above till the 1000 years is fulfilled at which time believers of the MK will be raptured to join us while God "renews" the earth. Then we shall come down in it (Rev 21) to the rejoining of Israel to God. They will inherit the earth and we abide in NJ with God (Rev 21:3-4, 22:1).

I hope this has been enlightening to you. You are, as you can see, very far from having the answers.

skypair

One of us is far from the answers and I say what Christ says, "the hour is coming when all that are in the grave shall come forth, unto them that have done good, the resurrection of life, unto them that have done evil, the resurrection of damnation".

Bible teaches the Lord will come the second time to receive His church and take it home to Heaven and pass judgement on the devil, the unbeliever and those who work abomination and those who make a lie, also whosoever's name is not written in the Lamb's book of Life.

Sorry, Skypair you will never convince me of what you just said. I am sure you saw the list I gave of those who did not believe such as you do, Calvin, St. Augustine, etc., so I am far from being alone.

Maybe I do not belong on this board if I believe the saved will spend eternity in Heaven. Do you believe that because I don't uphold the thousand year reign yet to come that "I will not spend eternity with the Lord, but will be lost?"

 

[DHK]

This thread has already reached 30 pages and needs to be closed. However it should have been closed on a better note, that is, without name-calling. One ought to be able to agree to disagree with another's eschatological position without stooping to name-calling. This is the essence of soul liberty. Let us endeavour to do better next time.