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Blammo said:Well, if that is the case, you don't owe me an apology at all, sir. Your assumption was correct. I do not know how to exegete, I did not even know the meaning of the word until this morning. And, based on your correct assumption, you're reply to me spot on, it only seemed out of line because I didn't know what the *bleep* I was talking about.
My assumption that you were being sarcastic and rude to me was WAY out of line, and I owe you an apology. I am sorry about that, Tom, I was a bit defensive and it was uncalled for.
What I gave in all actuality was not a proper exegete as I had seriously done the scripture a bad rendering (I didn’t do a double check on what I wrote and I apologize). It was wrong, though right in the general wrong even still. Sorry about that, it was my mistake.Originally Posted by Tom Butler
I promised some questions, so here goes:
Do you define "world" as every person without exception? If so, the question arises, so how can God reconcile every person to him, when many don't want to be reconciled and refuse to choose him as Savior?
The passage seems to be making a flat statement that God is in Christ reconciling. Not attempting to reconcile, or potentially reconciling, but actually reconciling. Further, God is not imputing their trespasses to them. So we have two things going on here: Reconciling and not imputing trespasses. Who the objects of God's action? You can see the problem is "world" means everybody. It has to mean everybody is saved, no one goes to hell. So to fit with other scripture, "world" must mean something else.
You said "As this reconciling is going on toward the world, then those who WOULD BE (choose to be-place faith in) reconciled, it is then that their trespasses are not imputed to them."
Ah, so those who are being reconciled are only those who choose to be. Not every person without exception. So "world" does not mean everybody. Further, the passage does not state that reconciling is going on toward the world. God is actually reconciling, not reconciling toward or attempting to do so.
I guess I've made more statements than asked questions. My desire is to let this passage inform my theology, not try to squeeze the passage to fit the view that I already hold.
And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled (past tense) us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; ~ (-) is added clarification by me.
Now we see that God was in Christ or actively apart of what He (Christ) was doing and that being when Christ was here (earthly ministry) He was reconciling the world to himself. What or who is this world??? Here is what scripture says in relation to Christ’s ministry and the world.To wit, (as or as we know) that God was in Christ, reconciling (present active) the world unto himself, not imputing (passing judgment upon) their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation ~ (-) is additional clarification by me..
Jhn 1:9 [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Jhn 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Now you may wonder why I placed the Moses lifting up the serpent along with the other verses that show Christ not condemning or Judging the world yet but seeking to save or reconcile them to Himself. The story of Moses and the Serpent is pertinent because anyone who was afflicted could simply look to this symbol of sin (acknowledging their sin and needing Gods salvation) And God would THEN take away their reproach or trespass, forgive and restore them to life.Jhn 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Which shows if He died for all then all those who live (not are made alive) should live for Him who has made the reconciling possible if you will but believe2Cr 5:15 And [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
[It is 2 Cor 5:19] In order to understand who the 'world' is in reference to (specifically here and dealing with reconciling) we need to let scripture show us who it is refering to. Verse 19 clues us in as it shows . Thus my posting this as well...Tom Butler said:Allan, I was sloppy as well in not catching the tense of "reconciling." I don't the mistake changed the essence of my position.
I go back to what I wrote earlier about Ro 5:19 (sic). God was doing two things. Reconciling and not imputing trespasses to those with whom he was reconciling. We have two choices. Assume that world means everybody, therefore everybody's sins will not be imputed to them, thus universalism; or, that world means something less--that is, only those whose sins are not imputed are the reconciled.
Using other scriptures referring to the "world" can be helpful in shedding light on other "world" scriptures, but I don't think they are in this case.
But I will add one more that denotes specifically who this world is with regard to this same reconciling:Now we see that God was in Christ or actively apart of what He (Christ) was doing and that being when Christ was here (earthly ministry) He was reconciling the world to himself. What or who is this world??? Here is what scripture says in relation to Christ’s ministry and the world.
As we know Jesus ministry was of two parts -1. to the Jewish Nation -temporarily blinded due to unbelief (first) and 2. (then to) to the world both Jew and Gentile (as indivuals and not a people). Israel as a nation will be brought the reconciliation (as the versse above shows) but for this time period (dispensation of grace) the reconcilition is to the world of whom the Church (Jew and Gentile) come from. And this is why verse 20 states they (the saved) pray (plead or urge) others to be reconciled being that we LIKE Christ are given the ministry of reconciliation to the WORLD.Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
GordonSlocum said:My Take on it:
Take all the verses in the NT that speak of drawing to salvation ( not that many) Here they are:
John 6: 44. "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 12:32. "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
So there we have it.
GordonSlocum said:We have two statements. If we separate them and make them mean what they say apart form the other then we have a contradiction. Most would agree.
GordonSlocum said:Jesus said no one come to Me unless God draws them. The question that we ask is reasonable. How then should I understand this single statement in light of what Jesus said?
My take: Because Jesus draws all to him (all mankind) then the father draws all mankind.
GordonSlocum said:When you add the II Peter 3:9 passage with this it makes more sense to some of us.
9. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
So we have the intent and will of God in this verse. God wishes, or wills that all not perish and all come to repentance. This would be in line with agreeing with Jesus statement “I will draw all men”
Martin said:==You left out John 6:37 and 65.
==John 12:32, isolated from the rest of Scripture and from its context, would teach universalism. That is why Scripture must be taken in context and not in isolation. Many popular evangelicals take John 12:32 out of context. They don't believe/teach universalism but that is only because they are inconsistant.
==But the Father does not draw all mankind. Only those He draws can come to Jesus and not everyone can come (Jn 6:65). People come to Jesus because the Father has given them to Him, that is why the elect are drawn to Jesus.
Another problem here is that, again, you are leaning towards universalism. If the Father draws all then, and we must be consistant with the whole verse, then all are raised up to life on the last day (Jn 6:40,44). Why? Notice what Jesus said:
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day" -Jn 6:44
Those the Father draws to Jesus are raised by Jesus on the last day.
Again...
"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me...that of all lthat He has given Me I lose nothing but raise it up on the last day" -Jn 6:37a,39b
I have only quoted those parts because I realize that we agree on the security aspect. Please notice, however, that those the Father gives to the Son are the ones who come to the Son and the Son raises them up on the last day.
And again...
"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son adn believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day" -Jn 6:40
It is believers who are raised up, in this context, on the last day. Those mentioned in verses 37a,39b are believers, those mentioned in verse 44 are believers as well. Those who are drawn to the Son, as in John 6:44, are those the Father has given to the Son and those whom the Son will raise up on the last day.
Therefore we can't say, as you have, that everyone is drawn. Since everyone is not given to Jesus, and therefore everyone does not come to Jesus, then we must know that not everyone is drawn to Jesus (see Jn 6:65). John 12:32 must be understood as refering to the general offer of the Gospel. Through the Gospel message the whole world is drawn to Jesus. However only the elect are drawn to Jesus in a saving way.
==Well first please notice who the verse is talking to. The Lord is patient towards who? "You", who is "you" in this verse? It is "those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (vs1). Peter is talking about the elect. God is patient not willing that any of the elect should perish but that all of them should come to repentance. This agrees with John 6:37 which says all of the elect will come to Christ. This agrees with John 6:39 and 10:28-29 which says that none of Christ's sheep will ever perish. 2Peter 3:9 is not refering to all men in general.
A verse that does, however, refer to all men in general is 1Timothy 2:4. God desires that all men would be saved. After all Scripture is clear that God is love and does not take joy in the punishment of the wicked (see 1Jn 4:8, Ez 18:23, Jn 3:16). However God has not willed that every person be saved, nor has He elected every person to be saved. Why not? I have no clue (Rom 11:33-36). I just know that Scripture is clear on both points.
Thak you, I appreciate that and also thank you as wellTom Butler said:I''m getting there, thanks. I'm a Calvinist, and I do agree that the context determines the application of the word "world."
In the case of IICor 5:19 "world" equates to those who were being reconciled--the redeemed ones. Uh, sorry I have to say this--the elect. But the redeemed ones were all kinds of folks from everywhere.
My view, of course, should take the steam out of the argument for a general atonement based on II Cor 5:14 "...if one died for all, then were all dead..."
Thanks for fleshing out things for me. I't's a pleasure discussing a topic with someone who values civility as much as I do.
This deals with the application of the atonement of Christ to the believer and how he is to view himself in relation to Christ. We see this in the next verse of; "He died for all (believers) that we should ..." However this DOES NOT signifiy that His death was ONLY for the Elect (I like the word for us believers so don't be afraid to use it) We see this in scriptures like:2Cr 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
2Cr 5:15 And [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again
2Cr 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more.
2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2Cr 5:18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Cr 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Cr 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
Any rendering of this verse apart from Christ being the Saviour to all men (mankind) but specifically to those who believe, is simply false. It shows that this attonement is potentially for all but effective to those who will believe (those God foreknew in either C or Non-C sense). Another scripture to this is:1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
The Attonement is something that anyone (sinner) CAN partake of (unlimited) but not everyone will.1Ti 1:15 This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
18. all--Greek, "THE."
things--all our privileges in this new creation ( 2Cr 5:14, 15 ).
reconciled us--that is, restored us ("the world," 2Cr 5:19 ) to His favor by satisfying the claims of justice against us. Our position judicially considered in the eye of the law is altered, not as though the mediation of Christ had made a change in God's character, nor as if the love of God was produced by the mediation of Christ; nay, the mediation and sacrifice of Christ was the provision of God's love, not its moving cause ( Rom 8:32 ). Christ's blood was the price paid at the expense of God Himself, and was required to reconcile the exercise of mercy with justice, not as separate, but as the eternally harmonious attributes in the one and the same God ( Rom 3:25, 26 ). The Greek "reconcile" is reciprocally used as in the Hebrew Hithpahel conjugation, appease, obtain the favor of. Mat 5:24 , "Be reconciled to thy brother"; that is, take measures that he be reconciled to thee, as well as thou to him, as the context proves. Diallagethi, however ( Mat 5:24 ), implying mutual reconciliation, is distinct from Katallagethi here, the latter referring to the change of status wrought in one of the two parties. The manner of God reconciling the world to Himself is implied ( 2Cr 5:19 ), namely, by His "not imputing their trespasses to them." God not merely, as subsequently, reconciles the world by inducing them to lay aside their enmity, but in the first instance, does so by satisfying His own justice and righteous enmity against sin ( Psa 7:11 ). Compare 1Sa 29:4 , "Reconcile himself unto his master"; not remove his own anger against his master, but his master's against him [ARCHBISHOP MAGEE, Atonement]. The reconciling of men to God by their laying aside their enmity is the consequence of God laying aside His just enmity against their sin, and follows at 2Cr 5:20 .
to us--ministers ( 2Cr 5:19, 20 ).
19. God was in Christ, reconciling--that is, God was BY Christ (in virtue of Christ's intervention) reconciling," &c. Was reconciling" implies the time when the act of reconciliation was being carried into effect ( 2Cr 5:21 ), namely, when "God made Jesus, who knew no sin, to be sin for us." The compound of "was" and the participle "reconciling," instead of the imperfect (Greek), may also imply the continuous purpose of God, from before the foundation of the world, to reconcile man to Himself, whose fall was foreseen. The expression " IN Christ" for "by Christ" may be used to imply additionally that God was IN Christ ( Jhn 10:38 14:10 ), and so by Christ (the God-man) was reconciling . . . The Greek for "by" or "through" Christ (the best manuscripts omit "Jesus"), 2Cr 5:18 , is different. "In" must mean here in the person of Christ. The Greek Katallasson implies "changing" or altering the judicial status from one of condemnation to one of justification. The atonement (at-one-ment), or reconciliation, is the removal of the bar to peace and acceptance with a holy God, which His righteousness interposed against our sin. The first step towards restoring peace between us and God was on God's side ( Jhn 3:16 ). The change therefore now to be effected must be on the part of offending man, God the offended One being already reconciled. It is man, not God, who now needs to be reconciled, and to lay aside his enmity against God ( Rom 5:10, 11 ). ("We have received the atonement" [Greek, reconciliation], cannot mean "We have received the laying aside of our own enmity"). Compare Rom 3:24, 25 .
the world--all men ( Col 1:20 1Jo 2:2 ). The manner of the reconciling is by His "not imputing to men their trespasses," but imputing them to Christ the Sin-bearer. There is no incongruity that a father should be offended with that son whom he loveth, and at that time offended with him when he loveth him. So, though God loved men whom He created, yet He was offended with them when they sinned, and gave His Son to suffer for them, that through that Son's obedience He might be reconciled to them (reconcile them to Himself, that is, restore them WITH JUSTICE to His favor) [BISHOP PEARSON, Exposition of the Creed].
reformedbeliever said:But Martin, is this word for all inclusive? I'm not sure because the same word is used later in 1 Tim. 6:10 to say that "the love of money is the root of all sorts of evil. Is the word the same as "all sorts of"? If so then 1 Tim. 2:4 is saying all sorts of men, not all inclusively.
reformedbeliever said:Originally Posted by reformedbeliever
But Martin, is this word for all inclusive? I'm not sure because the same word is used later in 1 Tim. 6:10 to say that "the love of money is the root of all sorts of evil. Is the word the same as "all sorts of"? If so then 1 Tim. 2:4 is saying all sorts of men, not all inclusively.
Allan, maybe you will give this a shot? Does all mean all inclusively in this verse?
Well, lets see. (I'll give most anything a try at least once. :tongue3: )reformedbeliever said:Allan, maybe you will give this a shot? Does all mean all inclusively in this verse?
In looking at this verse in its context I see no reason it should be 'all kinds' as it does not convey the intent of the writer.1 Tim. 6:10 to say that "the love of money is the root of all sorts of evil.
Then next verse:1Ti 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and [into] many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
This verse declares why this will happen and the very cause of this falling. It is the "love of money" this is a dirivitive of 'loving money' which directly refers to coveting and is why the verse says they covet. To covet is about selfishness, about it being about you and is this not the 'root of [all] evil' and not just all kinds of evil. If the verse were speaking just about money or even 'only' about loving money then, yes it would by context be able to states all kinds of but not specifically all evil. But the construction of the verse and the subject it is speaking of is the "love of - covetness' and this makes us able to state 'all' inclusively. The use of money in conjuction with 'love of' is merely used to personify by example the magnitude of the truth being revealed. What is that truth, well it was those thing just previously stated but also these things after this verse:1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
and then1Ti 6:1 ¶ Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and [his] doctrine be not blasphemed.
1Ti 6:2 And they that have believing masters, let them not despise [them], because they are brethren; but rather do [them] service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.
1Ti 6:3 ¶ If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, [even] the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
1Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
1Ti 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.
1Ti 6:7 For we brought nothing into [this] world, [and it is] certain we can carry nothing out.
1Ti 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
1Ti 6:11 ¶ But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
1Ti 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
1Ti 6:13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and [before] Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
1Ti 6:14 That thou keep [this] commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, [who is] the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen.
Tom,I'm glad to see that you and I agree that context helps in determining the meaning of a passage. In this case, I'm glad to see someone who is not a Calvinist agree that "all" doesn't mean every person without exception. "All" is limited to believers--the elect.