Draw all men to myself

[Tom Butler]

I want to go back to the OP, where psalms 109:31 said that he agrees with John 6:44, where Jesus says "no man can come unto me unless the Father which sent me draw him...."

That's followed with John 12:32, "..if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto me.."

Later, Gordon Slocum said: I would take it to mean that somehow someway all mankind will be drawn. I don't have all the answers as to how.

So we have an interesting conclusion. No one comes to Jesus unless the Father draws them, but because Jesus was crucified, he now draws everybody. Otherwise God wouldn't be fair.

Except:

In John 6:44, there is more to the verse. "..no man can come to me unless the Father which sent me draw him, and...and...and....I will raise him up at the last day.

Let's look at more of this discourse.
v.37 Jesus says "all those whom the Father giveth me will come to me...
v.39 Jesus says "this is the will of my Father who sent me that of all he has given me I should lose nothing, but should raise him up at the last day."
v.40 Jesus continues: "This is the will of the one who sent me that everyone who sees the son and believes on him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

So who are those who will be raised up? They are those whom the Father has given the Son. Those whom he has given the Son are those who come, believe on the Son and are given eternal life. But no one comes unless the Father draws. So all the Father draws those he has given to the Son. None of whom will the Son lose. All of whom will believe. All of them will have eternal life. All of them Jesus will raise up at the last day.

That leaves us with John 12:32, where Jesus says he will draw all men. But not all men come, not all believe. Jesus must mean something different here. Otherwise, it does not square with the passages in John 6. Else Jesus' drawing is not as good as the Father's drawing, which always succeeds.

Anybody want to take a crack at this one?

 

[psalms109:31]

scripture

Lets add some more scripture to this to completely understand.

This is how the Father draws us.

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

John 12:49
For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.

Romans 10:
14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"[Isaiah 52:7]

2 Corinthians 5:16
So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer.17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21God made him who had no sin to be sin[Or be a sin offering] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

You are not drawn by the Father by following the growd, you are drawned by the Father to Jesus through the words of Jesus. We are the messengers of the Father, for we have the words of Jesus which is Spirit and life and came from the Father.

Now that Jesus is lifted up He will draw all men to Himself.

He gives them this choice to believe in Jesus and be saved or not and be condemned.

Men are trying so hard to take away the hope God has given to the world through Jesus

 

[Tom Butler]

psalms 109,

I agree that the Father draws, Jesus draws, the Holy Spirit draws, and that the drawing invoves the scripture.

However, I cannot see that your comments speak to the passages in John 6.

Jesus said all that the Father gives to him will come to him.
Jesus said no one comes to him except the Father draws him.

Jesus said in John 12:32 that he will draw all men, but we know that not all will come to him.

What then, is the difference between the drawing Jesus spoke of in John 12, where all those drawn are not saved, and the drawing in John 6, where all those drawn are saved?

Further, you quoted II Corinthians 5:19, where it speaks of God's reconciling the world unto himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. If you hold that the world means everybody here, then please explain how this is not universalism.

 

[psalms109:31]

Scripture

Who has the Father given to Jesus, it's believers. No one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws them, so it is a calling for us to reach out, for the Father draws men to Jesus through the words of Jesus that we are messngers of.

We are drawned to Jesus with this Choice to believe in Jesus and be saved and not and be condemned.

We can walk away just like young rich ruler did.

No one can take a believer out of Jesus's hands.

This holds firm that God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, but by His own words only believers will be saved.

God through Jesus has oopened the door to the world through Jesus.

I do not believe in a universal salvation. But the same hope God has given to me , He has given to the world and has made us who believe the messenger.

God does not respect me more than someone else, that means the same hope you have God has given to the world through Jesus.

Jesus was not sent in the world to condemn, but to save us. We are messengers of good news.

All the regulations that men keep putting in your way, God has set them aside and given you a better hop to draw near to God throgh Jesus.

 

[HankD]

I haven't read all the posts in this thread so I might be repeating someone else.

So, here is my take on "Draw all men to myself"...

KJV John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.​

This no doubt is the work of the Holy Spirit in this age.​

KJV John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:​

KJV John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.​

But perhaps to fulfill all righteousness he draws all men knowing that not all will come to the light. ...so that they are without excuse:​

KJV John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.​

Who knows how far and what are the manifestations of this drawing and convicting work of God before they "fall away". Perhaps some come right up to the threshold of salvation and then "fall away".​

KJV Acts 24:24
And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.
25 And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.​

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,​

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance...

So, in this scenario, God draws all men giving both convicting and enlightenment though the Holy Spirit and/or the Word of God.

But some/many/most fall away a few perhaps at the very brink of the rebirth, returning to the darkness out of which they were drawn.

Probably never to return to the light.

HankD

 

[Tom Butler]

Psalms109:31, you said:
Who has the Father given to Jesus, it's believers.

In a sense, but more precisely, we were not believers when God gave us to the Son. Those whom God has given to Jesus will come to him, repent and believe, and become believers.

Even though their coming is guaranteed, Jesus said they couldn't come unless they are drawn. So, to accomplish this, God drew them to that repentance and faith. So the logical progression is God gives, God draws, men come and believe. Every time.

In John 6, then, it is plain that God does not give everyone to Jesus, because not everyone comes. Therefore, in John 6, not everyone is drawn.

How do we square this with John 12:32, where Jesus said he will draw all men to him? The plain text of John 6, then, demands that John 12:32 be interpreted in light of that text.

We must resolve what appears to be a conflict, that Jesus draws all men in 12:32, but not in 6:37-44. And this is Jesus speaking on both occasions.

I see a way out of it, if we equate drawing with calling. I'd like to hear more opinions before I develop this theme. Or if somebody else wants to develop it first.

 

[Tom Butler]

.. God draws all men giving both convicting and enlightenment though the Holy Spirit and/or the Word of God.

If I read you right, you equate God's drawing with convicting and enlightening through the work of the HS and the scriptures.

We get back to a basic argument. Do all men have enough enlightenment, convicting and drawing to be saved? A Yes answer seems to be driven by the conviction that God wants all to be saved, therefore, all must hear the gospel and have a chance to accept or reject it. Else God is not fair.

This view is an article of faith, because the scripture does not support it, and the empirical evidence seems to prove the opposite--that there are some who've never heard of Jesus Christ.

That's why I hold that the answer is no. In John 12:32, the drawing of "all men" cannot mean every person without exception. We can argue over what it does mean, but it's clear what it does not mean.

 

[psalms109:31]

Messenger

That tells you how important the messenger is

Ezekiel 3:18 When I say to a wicked man, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways in order to save his life, that wicked man will die for [Or in ; also in verses 19 and 20] his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 19 But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself.

20 "Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before him, he will die. Since you did not warn him, he will die for his sin. The righteous things he did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 21 But if you do warn the righteous man not to sin and he does not sin, he will surely live because he took warning, and you will have saved yourself."

James 5:19My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, 20remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

God has given us the responsibility to bring the Gospel to the world, and sure are not going to do it by trying to convince that God is a deceiver and He really doesn't love the world as Jesus tells us.

 

[Tom Butler]

Psalms 109:31,
I agree that the messenger is important, just as the message is important. It pleases God to save through the "foolishness of preaching."

How does this address my post on the apparent two kinds of drawing on John 6 and 12?

 

[psalms109:31]

Simple

We have to lift up Jesus for God to draw all men to Himself.

We are the messenger of the Father.

No one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws Him.

When He draws us we have a choice to believe in Jesus and be saved or not and be condemned. We can either walk away from Jesus as young rich ruler did or wash His feet with our hair tears

If we go out lifted Jesus up, not some doctrine He draw all men to Himself.

People want to make a simple thing complicated.

God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

The more of a light we are to this world and the more we do the work God told us to do. The more doors will be open.

God has made us His messenger and through us God is drawing people to Jesus.

 

[HankD]

If I read you right, you equate God's drawing with convicting and enlightening through the work of the HS and the scriptures.

We get back to a basic argument. Do all men have enough enlightenment, convicting and drawing to be saved? A Yes answer seems to be driven by the conviction that God wants all to be saved, therefore, all must hear the gospel and have a chance to accept or reject it. Else God is not fair.

This view is an article of faith, because the scripture does not support it, and the empirical evidence seems to prove the opposite--that there are some who've never heard of Jesus Christ.

That's why I hold that the answer is no. In John 12:32, the drawing of "all men" cannot mean every person without exception. We can argue over what it does mean, but it's clear what it does not mean.

I see and understand your points Tom.

"Do all men have enough enlightenment, convicting and drawing to be saved?"

I don't think so, but I leave that part alone.

"else God is not fair"

Personally, I don't see God as "not fair" in this scenario He makes the rules. What assessment we make of Him and what we think is of no consequence to Him, but you knew that. The Scripture does declare that He will do the right thing, the thing that pleases Him. It may not be "fair" in our estimation.

KJV Psalm 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.​

"Some who have never heard of Jesus Christ". Well, yes all who were here before He came in the flesh and those heathen/pagan who never heard the Gospel, but I would say from that the Scripture that the Holy Spirit enlightens "every man" (anthropos) and part of that enlightening ministry is the reproval or conviction of the world "of sin and of righteousness, and of judgment" even apart from the Scripture. Again He will do whatever He pleases with them. But I believe we can say with Abraham..

"...Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" Again it may or may not conform to our definition of "fair".​

KJV James 4:12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?​

I believe God convicts and calls every man. Not all come. I personally don't/can't assign blame to God for the "not coming". The Scripture blames the devil as in the the parable of the four soils (Matthew 13). That's a theological safe place because it is supported by Scripture.​

KJV Matthew 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.​

We are all bought with a price:

KJV 2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.​

Even the wicked are His.​

KJV Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.​

We are His to do with as He pleases. Personally, I try not to second guess Him (though I am certainly guilty).​

KJV Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.​

Finally, I don't get upset about anyone struggling with this dilemma of the Sovereignty of God vs the responsibilty of Man to respond to Him.​

We have made honest attempts to understand and these musings have gone on for millenia. I don't think we will know the answer this side of heaven, maybe not on the other side either. But it probably won't matter to us then.​

HankD​

 

[Tom Butler]

Greetings, HankD,

I find much to agree with in your comments.

With regard to God's "fairness" you are right. And we'd better rejoice that God is not fair with us, for if he gives us what we deserve, we'd be destined for Hell.

I wouldn't go as far as you have in holding that the Holy Spirit enlightens every man and part of that enlightening is reproval and conviction of sin, righteousness and justice. But I would go as far as to say that God has given some light to every man in the form of his creation. The creation suggests a creator. Even natural law suggests a lawgiver. I agree with those on this board who say that if they will follow the light that they have, God will give them more light.

Nor do I agree with you that God convicts and calls every man, at least not in the sense that they are convicted and called through the gospel, since all do not hear.

Then, I certainly agree that there are some things that we simply do not understand, and others which make no sense to our finite minds. On these, the best I can say is either "I don't have a clue," or "This is where I am today, but I don't guarantee I'll be there tomorrow."

 

[Tom Butler]

We have to lift up Jesus for God to draw all men to Himself.

We are the messenger of the Father.

No one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws Him.

When He draws us we have a choice to believe in Jesus and be saved or not and be condemned. We can either walk away from Jesus as young rich ruler did or wash His feet with our hair tears

If we go out lifted Jesus up, not some doctrine He draw all men to Himself.

People want to make a simple thing complicated.

God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

The more of a light we are to this world and the more we do the work God told us to do. The more doors will be open.

God has made us His messenger and through us God is drawing people to Jesus.

When Jesus talked about being lifted up, he was referring to his crucifixion. He was not talking about our lifting him up (as in magifying hm) so that he can draw all men. Now if we preach Christ crucified (lifted up) that's a different thing. If that's what you meant, then God can use that preaching to draw sinners.

This is quibbling, but I'm not sure that through us God is drawing people to Jesus. Oh, he might, but not independently of the gospel. But God does not need any help in drawing sinners to repentance in faith.

The tone of your comments has a tinge of suggestion that God is helpless to save without us. I don't think you mean that.

It would also advance the discussion if you would support your flat statements with scripture

 

[psalms109:31]

God and man

God does use the weekness of men to draw people to Himself.

I will boast all the more gladly about my weakness so that Christ power can rest upon me.

A farmer who depemnds on God to grew his farm will have no crop. If the farmer does not prepare the ground and just throws the seed out, it might land on good ground and it might land on bad, he will have some good crop. If the farmer tills the ground, gets all the rocks out and weeds, he will have a good crop. Any good farmer will tell you that it is God and the farmer that brings a good crop. If the farmer does nothing God will do nothing.

It is not just the lifting up on the cross, it is a dayly lifting up Jesus to draw all men to Himself.

If you do not lift Jesus up no one will be drawn to Jesus. I cannot agree that it is just at the cross.

I was drawn to Jesus because Jesus was lifted up for my salvation.

Did not that happen to you, or you just following the crowd. I do not see any other way to be drawn to Jesus without Jesus being lifted up.

 

[Tom Butler]

Psalm109:31,

I think we're dancing around each other, possibly talking about the same thing, just using different terms.

When I use the term "lift up Jesus," I am thinking in terms of magnifying him, giving him praise and honor. I think you are using the term to describe preaching the gospel, witnessing, personal soul-winning and the like. Since each of those involve presenting the gospel as described in the scriptures, I agree with you...if that's what you mean.

When we talk about God drawing, I think of God's calling men to repentance through the preaching of the gospel. If by drawing you mean calling, I can agree that there is a general call to all the lost who hear the gospel. I think you agree that not all who hear that call will respond.

I also believe that there is a specific call (drawing) to all those whom God has given to the Son. That call is always effective, for all who are given to the Son will come to him and believe. (John 6:37-44). This is also consistent with Romans 8:28-30, where Paul says that all who are called are justified.

So I see that we agree on several things. Where we probably can't agree is on the extent of the drawing. described in John 12:32. See my other posts on this aspect.







.

 

[psalms109:31]

God loved the world

God loved the world that He sent His.

God says believers shall be saved, in that we know who the Father has given to the Son.

It is simple believers.

God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

Hebrews 3:19
So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

 

[Tom Butler]

God says believers shall be saved, in that we know who the Father has given to the Son.

Hebrews 3:19
So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

Well, we agree that when one is saved, we know then that God had given him to the Son. But the language of John 6:37 says that all whom God gives to the Son will be saved--not are saved already. Giving precedes salvation.

I don't think we can use Hebrews 3:19 as a proof text that their unbelief meant the children of Israel were not saved. The clear meaning is that theywere not allowed to enter the Promised Land. One might make that an analogy of what unbelief today does to deny one salvation, though. Maybe that's what you meant. If not, please say what you did mean.

 

[psalms109:31]

scripture

Hebrew 3:
12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first…

19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge.

First we have a messenger that knows that whosoever believes in Jesus shall be saved and whosoever does not will be condemned.

So we are given a choice to believe in Jesus and be saved or not will be condemned.

Then those who believe in Jesus are given to Jesus by the Father.

Without the messenger there isd no hope for anyone, and Jesus is the hope for the whole world, but only believers will be saved.

It is believers that is predestined to be saved by the words of Jesus, that whosoever believes in Jesus shall be saved and yes this faith produces deeds, because faith without deeds is dead.

 

[Tom Butler]

Psalms109, you are as slippery as an eel.

You've been kind enough to reply to every one of my posts, but you have yet go go beyond just making flat statements.

You've offered no Biblical support for your positions. You've offered no reasoning behind them. This is like the preacher preaching a long sermon and you stand up at the end and say "that's not right" and leave the building without further comment, leaving the folks wondering what in the world you were talking about.

You simply state a proposition, somtimes mis-stating scripture, but refuse to defend your views.

I've tried to decipher some of your statements to see if we might be talking about the same position, just using different terminology. You've yet to to confirm or deny if I've read you right or wrong.

It would be quite helpful if you would simply say, "yes, that's what I meant," or "no, you've read me wrong," and then explain why.

Can you see why this is a frustrating conversatioin for me?

 

[psalms109:31]

Bible support

I am going to make it really simple.

The door has been open to the world and any one can enter, thus God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

God loved the world as in the same hope you have all men have.

Those who God foreknew that will come will come to Jesus. Believers are the one's the Father is given to Jesus. Because say's that whosoever believes shall be saved.

They cannot with out the preacher. God has not closed the door to anyone.

See you see it as a limitation, but I see that scripture as a calling to reach out for those God foreknew will come will come, now we are to reach them. The more we reach out the more will come, because they cannot come without a preacher.

We have to come out with the truth of God that He wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

This is a wide open door that those who come to Jesus He will in no wise cast out.

I will not limit the grace of God it is for everyone, but only one's who can enter is believers.

God says whosoever believes shall be saved and those are the one's God is given to Jesus. He is not going to give to Jesus those who do not believe they will be condemned.

We are to not let any one have a unbelieving heart and turn away from God, because the Jews were not able to enter because of unbelief. Just like we will not be able to enter because of unbelief.

As the scripture says we can save people from death, by turning them back to God.

You do not think anyone can be lost to Jesus, but they will be for unbelief, because Jesus says we must endure to the end to be saved..

Jesus will never lose a believer, so we are to encourage each other from turning away from God.

Hebrew 3:
12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first…

19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

Ezekiel 3:
18 When I say to a wicked man, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways in order to save his life, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 19 But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself.
20 "Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before him, he will die. Since you did not warn him, he will die for his sin. The righteous things he did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 21 But if you do warn the righteous man not to sin and he does not sin, he will surely live because he took warning, and you will have saved yourself."

James 5:19My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, 20remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.


I know you do not want to believe this only believers are predestined to salvation and they are the one's who Father is given to Jesus.

Unbelievers are faceing death and yes you can turn away from God. And yes if you turn away from the truth you are facing death.