Drawing and John 6

[jbh28]

This thread is about the word drawn and how it is used in John 6.

John 6:44
“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.”​

The word "drawn" here means to attact to cause to come. We see that is says at the beginning of the verse(and other places in the passage) that no one can COME... unless something happens. Well, once that something happens, it is only logical to say that then the person comes. The term "draw" always implies that the action happened. There are different variates of this word. I can draw a net, but I'm not attracting the net to come to me. Same word, different meaning. If you go somewhere, it can be said that you were drawn to that event. A performance will say that they drew a big crowd. It is only the ones that came that were drawn. This example is the same definition as that of John 6.

Also, it says that the Father draws HIM and then Jesus will raise HIM up on the last day. So not only does the definition of drawn say that all drawn come, Jesus also will raise up all that are drawn.

 

[Cutter]

Do the other two instances of drawn in the NT have the same meaning?
Acts 11:10 And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven.
James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

 

[quantumfaith]

This thread is about the word drawn and how it is used in John 6.

John 6:44
“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.”​

The word "drawn" here means to attact to cause to come. We see that is says at the beginning of the verse(and other places in the passage) that no one can COME... unless something happens. Well, once that something happens, it is only logical to say that then the person comes. The term "draw" always implies that the action happened. There are different variates of this word. I can draw a net, but I'm not attracting the net to come to me. Same word, different meaning. If you go somewhere, it can be said that you were drawn to that event. A performance will say that they drew a big crowd. It is only the ones that came that were drawn. This example is the same definition as that of John 6.

Also, it says that the Father draws HIM and then Jesus will raise HIM up on the last day. So not only does the definition of drawn say that all drawn come, Jesus also will raise up all that are drawn.

40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. 46No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. 48I am the bread of life.

How do these "surrounding" statements fit into your view of 6:44? I am assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that you are positing a "reformed" perspective with respect to John 6:44. Forgive me if I assume wrongly.

 

[jbh28]

Do the other two instances of drawn in the NT have the same meaning?
Acts 11:10 And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven.
James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Hi Cutter,

I was looking at James 1:14 the other day. We had revival this week at Church and we were in James 1 and I noticed this word. It is a different Greek word exelkō , but it is a relative word of the one used in John 6. I was say that The one on James 1 and John 6 are very similar. We are drawn away by our lust...we are are drawn to Christ by the Father.

Acts 11 would be more like a fishing net. You say your have drawn up the net of fish. you didn't attract the net to cause it to willingly come to you(as I see it meaning in John 6) but you are pulling the name causing it to come(basically against its "will"). I believe in John 6 the people are willingly coming by being drawn by God. Some have looked and seen that the Greek word there can also mean drag, but it doesn't mean both. Words have multiple definitions, but you don't use both in the same context. In the context of John 6, it would be drawn, because the person does come.

 

[jbh28]

40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. 46No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. 48I am the bread of life.

How do these "surrounding" statements fit into your view of 6:44? I am assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that you are positing a "reformed" perspective with respect to John 6:44. Forgive me if I assume wrongly.

I do believe in Election, but I also believe in whosoever will. Some see that has a contradiction, but it isn't. I don't believe people will come to Christ and be rejected because they are not "elect." My first encounter with the reformed theology was with somebody that believe that. I know most that are reformed (at least from what I have seen and read) would reject that idea.

I see verse 44 saying that for the person to do what's in verse 40, and verse 47, an action of God must happen first, the drawing of the Father. Everyone that believes will be saved, but man on his own will not seek after God. I do believe he comes willingly while being drawn.

I do believe in Election, but would not consider myself to be reformed.

 

[quantumfaith]

I do believe in Election, but I also believe in whosoever will. Some see that has a contradiction, but it isn't. I don't believe people will come to Christ and be rejected because they are not "elect." My first encounter with the reformed theology was with somebody that believe that. I know most that are reformed (at least from what I have seen and read) would reject that idea.

I see verse 44 saying that for the person to do what's in verse 40, and verse 47, an action of God must happen first, the drawing of the Father. Everyone that believes will be saved, but man on his own will not seek after God. I do believe he comes willingly while being drawn.

I do believe in Election, but would not consider myself to be reformed.

Thanks for the honesty. I too feel much the same way. We find ourselves in a "paradox".

–noun
1.a statement or proposition that seems self-contradictory or absurd but in reality expresses a possible truth.

 

[Cutter]

"Paradox" :laugh:

 

[quantumfaith]

"Paradox" :laugh:

Good one Cutter:laugh:

 

[Dr. Walter]

I think if you stay with the Biblical use of the term the subject being drawn is always passive in this action. The phrase "I will raise him up on the last day" demands it is effectual. Something cannot be drawn without at the same time come. Drawing refers to God's power in producing faith in Christ while coming is the expression of faith produced by God.

This thread is about the word drawn and how it is used in John 6.

John 6:44
“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.”​

The word "drawn" here means to attact to cause to come. We see that is says at the beginning of the verse(and other places in the passage) that no one can COME... unless something happens. Well, once that something happens, it is only logical to say that then the person comes. The term "draw" always implies that the action happened. There are different variates of this word. I can draw a net, but I'm not attracting the net to come to me. Same word, different meaning. If you go somewhere, it can be said that you were drawn to that event. A performance will say that they drew a big crowd. It is only the ones that came that were drawn. This example is the same definition as that of John 6.

Also, it says that the Father draws HIM and then Jesus will raise HIM up on the last day. So not only does the definition of drawn say that all drawn come, Jesus also will raise up all that are drawn.

 

[jbh28]

I think if you stay with the Biblical use of the term the subject being drawn is always passive in this action. The phrase "I will raise him up on the last day" demands it is effectual. Something cannot be drawn without at the same time come. Drawing refers to God's power in producing faith in Christ while coming is the expression of faith produced by God.

I would agree

 

[quantumfaith]

I think if you stay with the Biblical use of the term the subject being drawn is always passive in this action. The phrase "I will raise him up on the last day" demands it is effectual. Something cannot be drawn without at the same time come. Drawing refers to God's power in producing faith in Christ while coming is the expression of faith produced by God.

Dr. Walter, I do not speak, nor have I studied greek, other than "greek" characters being used extensively in higher mathematics, but reading the NIV, the insertion of "can" causes me to think that the "drawing" is not "required" to be "effectual" Help me out with some insight here.

Just for thought:

John 6:44 must be understood in the light of verse 45: "It is written in the Prophets, 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me." Here the sinner comes to Christ by listening to the Father, not by passively experiencing "Efficacious Grace."

Look for a moment at the parallels in these two verses. Verse 44 says that no one can come to Christ unless drawn by the Father. Verse 45 says that all who listen to the Father and learn from Him come to Christ. It would seem clear that the teaching ministry of God through His gospel and word is the means by which men are brought to Jesus. There is nothing in the text that necessitates an "effectual call" on a totally disabled unbeliever. This is confirmed by Peter (1 Pet. 1:23) and James (James 1:18), both of whom declare that the Word of God is an agency of the new birth.

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/calvinism.html#Mystery

 

[asterisktom]

I think if you stay with the Biblical use of the term the subject being drawn is always passive in this action. The phrase "I will raise him up on the last day" demands it is effectual. Something cannot be drawn without at the same time come. Drawing refers to God's power in producing faith in Christ while coming is the expression of faith produced by God.

Agreed. I believe a study of the Biblical term has to lead to this very conclusion.
Here is an article I wrote on this.
--------------

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth,
will draw all men unto Me

John 12:32​

This verse has been the battleground for those who see differently on the issue of Limited verse Universal Atonement. The question arises: What does Christ mean by "draw all men"? This is the question to pursue. Fortunately the Bible helps provide a definition for this word - in the other occurrences of this word "draw". An understanding of the drawing, looking at other Biblical occurrences of the word, should lead to a better understanding of the verse before us - and also show that provisional universal atonement (the belief that Christ's death made salvation possible for all) is not a biblically justified doctrine. Salvation, for instance, was never possible for the Pharaoh of the time of the Exodus. See Romans 9:17. I know that this comes across as harsh and doctrinaire, but we must always consult the Bible, not our feelings or our culture, to see what is true and what isn't.

HOW DOES THE BIBLE use the term "draw"?
There are eight occurrences of "draw" in the New Testament. Studying these eight verses shows that this verb describes more than just the Spirit's gentle tugging on the heart concerning the work of Christ. Peter's and the other disciple's tugging was more than "tugging", yet their efforts did not qualify as "drawing" (John 21:6). Later, they do draw the net full of fish. "Drawing" is also used of the ones who dragged Paul and Silas to the rulers (Acts 16:19). You can read the rest of the verse to see that all of them assume a strong meaning to draw.

So, getting back to John 12:32, how can this not also be a strong pulling toward Christ? Not merely a notion implanted in all men as in "Maybe there is some truth to this Christianity, after all", but - if the other occurrences are any guide - an unmistakable bringing closer to Christ of the ones who are thus drawn.

Has this happened to all people? No. Is this right now happening to all people? Certainly not. But if it is not, then we must either change the meaning of "draw" - into a meaning foreign to all Biblical usage - or we must look again at that "all". The far easier way to understand this verse is to see that the "all" is to be understood as "all types of" from out of all possible. This is a common use of "all" (See Matt.4:23, 23:27; Acts 2:5, 7:22, 10:11-14, 13:10; Romans 7:8 and 1st Timothy 6:10).

If we see that this is indeed a strong pulling toward Christ, then it is a description of the work of God in gathering His elect, from among all nations, tribes and languages and over all the centuries, a multitude that no one will be able to count (Rev. 7:9).

I believe this makes the best sense and is the most compatible with other verses. John 6:44 (below) and other verses bear this out.

Here are the uses of the word translated "draw":

(John 6:44) No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(John 12:32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

(John 18:10) Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.

(John 21:6) And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and you shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.

(John 21:11) Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.

(Acts 16:19) And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the marketplace unto the rulers,

(Acts 21:30) And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut.

(James 2:6) But you have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?

History plainly shows that many evil men were not drawn to Christ in the Biblical sense.
I believe that John 12:32 cannot be used to teach universal atonement, for the simple fact that there was not a universal drawing of men to Christ according to the normal understood use of the word.

Yet, if it was not universal, it was particular. Although it is particular, it is also thorough; everyone that Christ draws will be saved (Here are the I and P of the TULIP), since "He that comes to Me I will in no wise cast out".

 

[Dr. Walter]

Brother,

The distinction between "can" and "may" is the difference between "ability" and "permission." The Greek term translated "can" is "dunatai" and means "power" or abillity. Jesus is saying that no one has the "power" or ability to come to Him.

Jesus gives us a further commentary on what he means in John 6:65 where he says,

But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Notice verse 64 is about who would not believe on him. Verse 65 gives the reason why they do not believe on him. The ability to believe must be "given" unto that person by the Father. Hence, this commentary by Jesus in verses 64-65 gives us insight on what verse 45 is all about. It is about the internal workings by God which communicates the ability to believe on Christ.

Now lets look at verse 45

It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

How many of the "all" come to Christ? Answer "every man...that hath heard....cometh unto me." Verse 45 simply explains why every man the Father draws "I will raise him up in the last day."

My friend, this is the strongest langauge for effectual calling. This subject really begins in verse 29 that declares that the ability to believe is "the work of God."

Now, you are right, the gospel is the creative word used by God to speak this inward change of faith into existence (Jm. 1:18; 1 Thes. 1:5). We are "called" by the gospel (2 Thes. 2:14). However, the gospel is not always empowered by the Holy Spirit (1 Thes. 1:5 "in word only") but when it is, it comes "not in word only but in power" (1 Thes. 1:5).

If you need some tools to aide you in studying the Bible, go to North Amerian On line Bible and download the free online Bible. It will give you the ability to have the Strongs Concordance with the English version of the Bible.

Dr. Walter, I do not speak, nor have I studied greek, other than "greek" characters being used extensively in higher mathematics, but reading the NIV, the insertion of "can" causes me to think that the "drawing" is not "required" to be "effectual" Help me out with some insight here.

Just for thought:

John 6:44 must be understood in the light of verse 45: "It is written in the Prophets, 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me." Here the sinner comes to Christ by listening to the Father, not by passively experiencing "Efficacious Grace."

Look for a moment at the parallels in these two verses. Verse 44 says that no one can come to Christ unless drawn by the Father. Verse 45 says that all who listen to the Father and learn from Him come to Christ. It would seem clear that the teaching ministry of God through His gospel and word is the means by which men are brought to Jesus. There is nothing in the text that necessitates an "effectual call" on a totally disabled unbeliever. This is confirmed by Peter (1 Pet. 1:23) and James (James 1:18), both of whom declare that the Word of God is an agency of the new birth.

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/calvinism.html#Mystery

 

[psalms109:31]

Humble

Until we humble our selves and listen and learn and don't lean on our understanding and trust in the Lord. I do believe that God will give us the ability to believe.


God help my unbelief.

Trust is the first step, God said He will keep the meek and humble who trust in the name of the Lord. We do not know what to believe to believe so we have to trust in God and listen and learn from Him, it all starts by being humble.

Those who was cut out were cut out for unbelief, because they wouldn't listen or learn not for not being chosen.

Hebrew 3:

Warning Against Unbelief
7So, as the Holy Spirit says:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
8do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the desert,
9where your fathers tested and tried me
and for forty years saw what I did.
10That is why I was angry with that generation,
and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.'
11So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.' "[Psalm 95:7-11]

This is our responsibilty for one another

12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.

Continue why they were cut out

15As has just been said:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."[Psalm 95:7,8]

16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed[Or disbelieved]? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

Jude:
5Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[Some early manuscripts Jesus] delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

When we stop learning is the day we follow a dead religion instead of a relationship with God through Jesus.

 

[jbh28]

Until we humble our selves and listen and learn and don't lean on our understanding and trust in the Lord. I do believe that God will give us the ability to believe.


God help my unbelief.

Trust is the first step, God said He will keep the meek and humble who trust in the name of the Lord. We do not know what to believe to believe so we have to trust in God and listen and learn from Him, it all starts by being humble.

Those who was cut out were cut out for unbelief, because they wouldn't listen or learn not for not being chosen.

Hebrew 3:

Warning Against Unbelief
7So, as the Holy Spirit says:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
8do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the desert,
9where your fathers tested and tried me
and for forty years saw what I did.
10That is why I was angry with that generation,
and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.'
11So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.' "[Psalm 95:7-11]

This is our responsibilty for one another

12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.

Continue why they were cut out

15As has just been said:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."[Psalm 95:7,8]

16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed[Or disbelieved]? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

Jude:
5Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[Some early manuscripts Jesus] delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

When we stop learning is the day we follow a dead religion instead of a relationship with God through Jesus.

What does this have to do with John 6?

 

[Winman]

I do believe in Election, but I also believe in whosoever will. Some see that has a contradiction, but it isn't. I don't believe people will come to Christ and be rejected because they are not "elect." My first encounter with the reformed theology was with somebody that believe that. I know most that are reformed (at least from what I have seen and read) would reject that idea.

People see it as a contradiction because it is a contradiction. You have just figured a way to rationalize it away.

You don't believe people will come to Christ and be rejected because they are not elect, you believe only those who are elect will come to Christ. So election is what determines salvation.

And when you say "whosoever will" you do not believe that all men have the ability to be willing, you believe only those who are willing are willing. It is circular reasoning. Of course the willing are willing. Maybe when you realize you have been taught circular reasoning you will see why this is a false belief.

 

[Winman]

How many of the "all" come to Christ? Answer "every man...that hath heard....cometh unto me." Verse 45 simply explains why every man the Father draws "I will raise him up in the last day."

Every man who hath heard means those who willingly and sincerely listen.

Only those who sincerely listen to God's word and heed it will come. Did they come on their own? No. If it had not been for God's word they would be ignorant and could not come.

In Romans chapter 10 Paul speaks of faith and not once mentions that a person must be regenerated to believe. In fact, there is not one verse in all the Bible that says that (you know that).

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Why does Paul neglect to mention that a person must be regenerated to believe here? He only says they must hear of Christ. Then in verse 17 he explains the source of faith.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

You can't have faith in Christ by hearing one of Obama's speeches, you can't have faith in Christ by hearing a lecture on the monarch butterfly, you have to hear the word of God.

Without the word of God all men would be ignorant of Christ and hopelessly lost. Man would never imagine God's plan of salvation in Christ on his own. This is why if you have faith in Christ it was given to you by God.

 

[jbh28]

People see it as a contradiction because it is a contradiction. You have just figured a way to rationalize it away.

You don't believe people will come to Christ and be rejected because they are not elect, you believe only those who are elect will come to Christ. So election is what determines salvation.

No, election determines who God will save.

And when you say "whosoever will" you do not believe that all men have the ability to be willing, you believe only those who are willing are willing. It is circular reasoning. Of course the willing are willing. Maybe when you realize you have been taught circular reasoning you will see why this is a false belief.

It's not circular at all, and it's not a contradiction. John 6 says that no man CAN come unless he is drawn...That means ability. If it said not man MAY
, then that would deny whosoever will, but it says CAN, which means ability.

whosoever will

Anybody that believes will be saved. Have you ever heard me deny this? Nope So I believe in whosoever will.

Election

Who are going to be the willing, those that God elects before the foundation of the world. He is the one that makes them willing to go. No man on his own will ever seek after God. It is God that draws him, as John 6 says. And all that are drawn will be raised up in the last day. All that are drawn will come. All that are drawn will believe.

 

[jbh28]

Every man who hath heard means those who willingly and sincerely listen.

Only those who sincerely listen to God's word and heed it will come. Did they come on their own? No. If it had not been for God's word they would be ignorant and could not come.

In Romans chapter 10 Paul speaks of faith and not once mentions that a person must be regenerated to believe. In fact, there is not one verse in all the Bible that says that (you know that).

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Why does Paul neglect to mention that a person must be regenerated to believe here? He only says they must hear of Christ. Then in verse 17 he explains the source of faith.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

You can't have faith in Christ by hearing one of Obama's speeches, you can't have faith in Christ by hearing a lecture on the monarch butterfly, you have to hear the word of God.

Without the word of God all men would be ignorant of Christ and hopelessly lost. Man would never imagine God's plan of salvation in Christ on his own. This is why if you have faith in Christ it was given to you by God.

I'm assuming then that you believe that faith is a gift of God?

 

[jbh28]

To keep form hi jacking the other thread, I respond to you post over here. You said

God has chosen to only save those that believe in Jesus Christ.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Where does the Bible say that Gods choice was based on those that believed? John 14 says we are saved through Jesus Christ, but has nothing to do with the basis of God's election. Where does it say that God chose based on who would believe?

I believe 100% of all men have the ability to choose to trust in Christ if they will to do so. If they willingly trust in Christ they will be saved, if they reject Christ they will be lost.

The last part is correct, but where do you find the first part that all have the ABILITY? John 6 says that no one has the ability unless drawn. And obviously not all are drawn because not all come.

I do not agree that God could save everyone. If I said that I was mistaken. God can only save those who trust in Christ.

So your god is weak and not omnipotent. He is powerless to save everyone.
Here is where you said it.

I believe God is able to save 100% of all men who ever lived.[/B] That does not mean God will save every man, God saves conditionally upon a man coming by faith in his Son Jesus Christ.