Drawing and John 6

[Winman]

No, election determines who God will save.

No, believing on Christ determines who God will save. It also determines who God elects. You see, you can know who is elected beforehand. Even in our own Presidential election we knew who would win in advance.

You are probably saying, What?

Well, we did know who would win. We knew whoever won the Electoral College would win. That is the condition you must fulfill to be elected President.

And it is the same with God, he has a condition for those who are Elect, they must trust on Christ. God in his foreknowledge knows who will believe on Christ in advance. This is shown in scripture.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

The scriptures show Jesus knew in advance who would not believe on him and who would betray him. Therefore he also knows who would believe on him. This is shown with Nathanael as well.

John 1:48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.

Notice that even before Nathanael was called, that Jesus said he saw him. Jesus knew in advance Nathanael would believe on him, even before he was called.

It's not circular at all, and it's not a contradiction. John 6 says that no man CAN come unless he is drawn...That means ability. If it said not man MAY
, then that would deny whosoever will, but it says CAN, which means ability.

It is circular reasoning. Of course the willing are willing, and the unwilling are unwilling. It's like saying the black dog is black. It is saying nothing.

Anybody that believes will be saved. Have you ever heard me deny this? Nope So I believe in whosoever will.

No, you believe whoever believes believes (circular reasoning), and whoever is willing is willing (circular reasoning).

Here is the definition of circular reasoning:

Circular Reasoning – supporting a premise with the premise rather than a conclusion

Saying the willing are willing is supporting the premise with the premise. You could say this about all things, you could say stubborn people are stubborn, mean people are mean.

Think about it awhile and it will come to you.

 

[jbh28]

No, believing on Christ determines who God will save. It also determines who God elects. You see, you can know who is elected beforehand. Even in our own Presidential election we knew who would win in advance.

You are probably saying, What?

Well, we did know who would win. We knew whoever won the Electoral College would win. That is the condition you must fulfill to be elected President.

And it is the same with God, he has a condition for those who are Elect, they must trust on Christ. God in his foreknowledge knows who will believe on Christ in advance. This is shown in scripture.

You might want to re-read what you said. We knew who would be elected by who would be elected? The one who won the electoral college was the one that got the most votes in each state, so it is still based on election.



John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

The scriptures show Jesus knew in advance who would not believe on him and who would betray him. Therefore he also knows who would believe on him. This is shown with Nathanael as well.

John 1:48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.

Notice that even before Nathanael was called, that Jesus said he saw him. Jesus knew in advance Nathanael would believe on him, even before he was called.
[/quote]But none of these verses say that election is based on those who would believe. Yes Jesus knows who will believe, but it doesn't say he elected according to who would believe. Please try again...

It is circular reasoning. Of course the willing are willing, and the unwilling are unwilling. It's like saying the black dog is black. It is saying nothing.

I didn't say that, you said that.

No, you believe whoever believes believes (circular reasoning), and whoever is willing is willing (circular reasoning).

No, you believe that people believe because they are chosen and they are chosen because they belived. That is circular. I believe people believe because they are chosen and people are chosen because God wanted to choose them. Not circular.

Here is the definition of circular reasoning:

Circular Reasoning – supporting a premise with the premise rather than a conclusion

Saying the willing are willing is supporting the premise with the premise. You could say this about all things, you could say stubborn people are stubborn, mean people are mean.

Think about it awhile and it will come to you.

Nice straw man, but I didn't say that. I said they are willing because of the work God did in their heart.

Please address my post instead of resorting to straw man arguments.

 

[Winman]

John 6 says that no man CAN come unless he is drawn

It is absolutely true that no man can come unless he is drawn. But where Calvinism goes astray is that it teaches God regenerates a man to be drawn. But the scriptures teach that God draws men through the scriptures.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

See, Calvinists like to stop short at verse 44. But verse 45 explains how men are drawn. They are drawn by being taught by the Father. And how is that done? Through the scriptures.

And Jesus explains it even further in the same chapter.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

God uses his Holy scriptures to draw men. And those men who listen to God's word and take heed to it will come to God. Those who reject God's word will not come to him.

But those who do come cannot take any credit for it, for if it had not been for God's word they would have been in ignorance and could have never come to Christ. You can't come to Jesus if you've never heard of him.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

I don't know how you learned of Jesus, but I learned of Jesus by reading the scriptures and hearing preaching from the scriptures.

But Calvinism teaches that a man is just walking along, caring less for the things of God and suddenly God regenerates him. Is that how it happened to you? Or did you hear of Jesus through the scriptures and preaching?

 

[jbh28]

It is absolutely true that no man can come unless he is drawn. But where Calvinism goes astray is that it teaches God regenerates a man to be drawn. But the scriptures teach that God draws men through the scriptures.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

See, Calvinists like to stop short at verse 44. But verse 45 explains how men are drawn. They are drawn by being taught by the Father. And how is that done? Through the scriptures.

And Jesus explains it even further in the same chapter.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

God uses his Holy scriptures to draw men. And those men who listen to God's word and take heed to it will come to God. Those who reject God's word will not come to him.

But those who do come cannot take any credit for it, for if it had not been for God's word they would have been in ignorance and could have never come to Christ. You can't come to Jesus if you never heard of him.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

I don't know how you learned of Jesus, but I learned of Jesus by reading the sciptures and hearing preaching from the scriptures.

But Calvinism teaches that a man is just walking along, caring less for the things of God and suddenly God regenerates him. Is that how it happened to you? Or did you hear of Jesus through the scriptures and preaching?

Nice straw man. Maybe you will learn one day to respond to my posts instead of creating a make believe "calvinism." I have never met a Calvinist that thinks that God doesn't use the Word. And I'm also not a Calvinist, so I'm not sure why you keep bringing them up.

 

[jbh28]

Did you see this?

Not sure if you missed this or not, it was on the bottom of the last page.

http://baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1545342&postcount=20

 

[Winman]

Where does the Bible say that Gods choice was based on those that believed? John 14 says we are saved through Jesus Christ, but has nothing to do with the basis of God's election. Where does it say that God chose based on who would believe?

I will show you, but you will probably ignore it. That may sound terrible, but I have discovered when you actually give most Calvinists an answer, they ignore it and change the subject. I hope you will not do that.

1 Cor 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

God saves those who believe, and this verse shows how it is done. Does it say men are regenerated to believe? No, it says God uses preaching to save men. You have to remember that in Paul's day many men could not read and so were dependent on a preacher to hear the word of God.

So, we are saved by the foolishness of preaching, by hearing God's word.

And as far as the elect, the scriptures say we are elect according to God's foreknowledge.

1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Now, I have already showed you that Jesus knew in advance who would believe, and who would not. So, I believe God elected those whom he saw would believe before the foundation of the world.

Calvinists deny this, but they can never explain what this foreknowledge is. I have showed you examples of foreknowledge from scripture.

 

[jbh28]

I will show you, but you will probably ignore it. That may sound terrible, but I have discovered when you actually give most Calvinists an answer, they ignore it and change the subject. I hope you will not do that.

I'll listen and read anything you post as along as it is about what we are speaking about. Again, I'm not a Calvinist.

1 Cor 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

God saves those who believe, and this verse shows how it is done. Does it say men are regenerated to believe? No, it says God uses preaching to save men. You have to remember that in Paul's day many men could not read and so were dependent on a preacher to hear the word of God.

So, we are saved by the foolishness of preaching, by hearing God's word.

Agreed, this is the means as to how God saves his elect, by the preaching of His word.

And as far as the elect, the scriptures say we are elect according to God's foreknowledge.

1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Now, I have already showed you that Jesus knew in advance who would believe, and who would not. So, I believe God elected those whom he saw would believe before the foundation of the world.

Calvinists deny this, but they can never explain what this foreknowledge is. I have showed you examples of foreknowledge from scripture.

Notice this passage doesn't say according to the foreknowledge of future people believing. Yes, God does know who will believe, God knows everything. So His election is according(or in agreement, harmony) with His foreknowledge. It doesn't say that God looked through time and elected those who would believe.

Ephesians 1 says "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him. In love having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

 

[Dr. Walter]

My friend, You quoted John 6:64 to demonstrate that Christ knew who did not believe on him among his own professed disciples. However, you did not accept the stated reason Christ gave in verse 65 for why they did not believe upon him. In verse 65 Jesus reverts back to verse 44 ("therefore I said") and changes the word "draw" in verse 44 to "given unto him of my Father" in verse 65. This change is revealing and significant.

Hence, Jesus defines what he means by being drawn by the Father in verse 44 to be "given" the ability to believe in him by the Father. The Father did not draw those in verse 64 is the conclusion of Christ in verse 65. He did not draw them, meaning, he did not give them the ability to believe in Christ and that is why they continued in unbelief even though they claimed to be "disciples" the very disciples that "walked with him no more."

This concludes the opening statement by Christ in verse 29 that the ability to believe in Christ is "the work of God" and verse 45 describes this INTERNAL work that God performs in ALL that he draws so that "EVERYONE" this work is performed in "cometh" to Christ.

No, believing on Christ determines who God will save. It also determines who God elects. You see, you can know who is elected beforehand. Even in our own Presidential election we knew who would win in advance.

You are probably saying, What?

Well, we did know who would win. We knew whoever won the Electoral College would win. That is the condition you must fulfill to be elected President.

And it is the same with God, he has a condition for those who are Elect, they must trust on Christ. God in his foreknowledge knows who will believe on Christ in advance. This is shown in scripture.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

The scriptures show Jesus knew in advance who would not believe on him and who would betray him. Therefore he also knows who would believe on him. This is shown with Nathanael as well.

John 1:48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.

Notice that even before Nathanael was called, that Jesus said he saw him. Jesus knew in advance Nathanael would believe on him, even before he was called.



It is circular reasoning. Of course the willing are willing, and the unwilling are unwilling. It's like saying the black dog is black. It is saying nothing.



No, you believe whoever believes believes (circular reasoning), and whoever is willing is willing (circular reasoning).

Here is the definition of circular reasoning:

Circular Reasoning – supporting a premise with the premise rather than a conclusion

Saying the willing are willing is supporting the premise with the premise. You could say this about all things, you could say stubborn people are stubborn, mean people are mean.

Think about it awhile and it will come to you.

 

[Winman]

Notice this passage doesn't say according to the foreknowledge of future people believing. Yes, God does know who will believe, God knows everything. So His election is according(or in agreement, harmony) with His foreknowledge. It doesn't say that God looked through time and elected those who would believe.

Ephesians 1 says "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him. In love having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

You are correct that 1 Pet 1:2 does not specifically say what this foreknowledge is, but if it is not God seeing a man's faith in advance, then what is it? No Calvinist has ever been able to answer that question. On my side of the argument, I have scripture that shows Jesus could indeed see a man's faith in advance.

And you provided your own answer in the second paragraph you wrote. Notice we are chosen "in him". You cannot be "in Christ" unless you have believed on him and received the Holy Spirit.

Eph 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

Notice this speaks of God's eternal purpose which he has already purposed. And notice in verse 12 it says "In whom". This is speaking of Jesus, and of us being "in him". We are part of his body. But notice this comes about "by the faith of him".

 

[jbh28]

You are correct that 1 Pet 1:2 does not specifically say what this foreknowledge is, but if it is not God seeing a man's faith in advance, then what is it? No Calvinist has ever been able to answer that question. On my side of the argument, I have scripture that shows Jesus could indeed see a man's faith in advance.

And you provided your own answer in the second paragraph you wrote. Notice we are chosen "in him". You cannot be "in Christ" unless you have believed on him and received the Holy Spirit.

Our election was in Christ, but we are not in Christ till we are saved, just as we are elected to be saved, but we are not saved till later.

Eph 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

Notice this speaks of God's eternal purpose which he has already purposed. And notice in verse 12 it says "In whom". This is speaking of Jesus, and of us being "in him". We are part of his body. But notice this comes about "by the faith of him".

But the election isn't based on faith, our salvation is based on faith.

 

[jbh28]

Not sure if you missed this or not, it was on the bottom of the last page.

http://baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1545342&postcount=20

I notice you haven't responded to this yet. Do you believe that God is not omnipotent and is unable to save everyone? Or do you believe, as I do, that God is able to save everyone.

 

[Winman]

Hence, Jesus defines what he means by being drawn by the Father in verse 44 to be "given" the ability to believe in him by the Father. The Father did not draw those in verse 64 is the conclusion of Christ in verse 65. He did not draw them, meaning, he did not give them the ability to believe in Christ and that is why they continued in unbelief even though they claimed to be "disciples" the very disciples that "walked with him no more."

I don't know about you, but I didn't dream up the gospel on my own. Neither was I walking along one day and was suddenly zapped with this knowledge. I learned from reading and hearing God's word, maybe it was different for you.

So, I owe all the credit to God for showing me how to be saved through his Son Jesus Christ. And unless God had revealed this to me through the scriptures I would be hopelessly lost.

But not all men receive what God offers them. They turn from the word of God. They will not listen to it, they refuse to believe it. They could, nothing prevents them except their love of sin and wanting to continue in it.

2 Thess 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

These people could be saved, the scripture says so. God gave them truth, but they refused it, they received it not because they had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[Dr. Walter]

My friend, you have proven my point. You didn't dream it up and you didn't work it up even though I am sure you probably heard the gospel many times before you actually got saved. What happened INSIDE of you when you got saved? God did that work described in John 6:44-45, 65. That time, the gospel came "not in word only BUT IN POWER." That is what made the difference.

Those Jesus described in John 6:64 already professed to have believed the gospel BUT it was an empty profession. They may have walked the isle, signed a card, said a prayer but that saves no one! Salvation is God CHANGING YOU from the inside first. He does this in connection with the preaching of the gospel but the difference is that the gospel comes in POWER this time because it was God empowering it as His creative word to give you a believing heart in the gospel (1 Thes. 1:4-5; 2 Cor. 3:3-6; 6:4; James 1:18; etc.).

I don't know about you, but I didn't dream up the gospel on my own. Neither was I walking along one day and was suddenly zapped with this knowledge. I learned from reading and hearing God's word, maybe it was different for you.

So, I owe all the credit to God for showing me how to be saved through his Son Jesus Christ. And unless God had revealed this to me through the scriptures I would be hopelessly lost.

But not all men receive what God offers them. They turn from the word of God. They will not listen to it, they refuse to believe it. They could, nothing prevents them except their love of sin and wanting to continue in it.

2 Thess 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

These people could be saved, the scripture says so. God gave them truth, but they refused it, they received it not because they had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[Winman]

I notice you haven't responded to this yet. Do you believe that God is not omnipotent and is unable to save everyone? Or do you believe, as I do, that God is able to save everyone.

No, I do not believe as you do. God cannot do everything. God cannot sin, God cannot lie, God cannot tempt a man to do evil. God is not just omnipotent, he is morally perfect. He is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

God would not call men to be saved whom he knew cannot possibly be saved. This would be a mocking, insincere invitation. In reality, it is no invitation at all. God does not mislead people, lead them to believe they might be saved when God knows they cannot. In reality, believing this is to believe that God can lie. And the scriptures say God cannot lie.

Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Calvinism exalts God's sovereignty and omnipotence at the expense of his holiness. Holiness is God's greatest attribute, not his power or sovereignty.

What do the four beasts cry before God night and day for eternity?

Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Calvinism makes a mockery of God's holiness.

 

[Winman]

My friend, you have proven my point. You didn't dream it up and you didn't work it up even though I am sure you probably heard the gospel many times before you actually got saved. What happened INSIDE of you when you got saved? God did that work described in John 6:44-45, 65. That time, the gospel came "not in word only BUT IN POWER." That is what made the difference.

You assume total depravity, that a unregenerate man is unable to obey God. The scriptures show this false. Cain was unsaved, yet God himself confirmed that he had the ability to obey God if he chose to do so.

Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Oh, I know, you will argue that Cain was a slave of his nature and could not help but do the wrong thing. But God himself said differently. Cain did choose to do wrong, but he had the ability to do the right thing if he wanted to do so. God is not confused, he said exactly what he meant.

God said "if". There are no ifs in the doctrine of Calvinism.

 

[Dr. Walter]

My friend, you are right when you say the cheif attribute of God is holiness. There are only two texts in scripture that I am aware of when God looked down to see if there were any that were good (holy) and if there were any that did "seek" after him (free will to chose) and he concluded from his search that there were none "no, not one" (Psa. 14:2-3; 53:2-3).

The Apostle drew from these Psalms his conclusion (Rom. 3:9) concerning every single human being ever born of Adam both Jew and Gentile (Rom. 3:9-11).

This is what God saw when he looked down from heaven upon mankind. He saw that every single one FREELY CHOSE TO RESIST seeking after Him. Jesus told Nicodemus that mankind was "condemned already" because of this state of FREE CHOICE TO REJECT God (Jn. 3:18-19).

The Holiness of God could justly condemn all mankind to hell based upon their own free choice to reject God. Nothing prevents the salvation of any sinner but their own FREE WILL to reject, resist God due to inborn "enmity" toward God (Rom. 8:7).

So lets talk about JUSTICE and HOLINESS! Would God be perfectly just and Holy to allow all mankind to continue in their own free choice to resist and reject Him? YES! This is your state and my state by nature and it will continue to be your state by FREE CHOICE as long as you live and breath because of INBORN hatred to God. Nothing prevents the salvation of any sinner but their own FREE CHOICE not to seek after God.

Now, would it be unjust if God chose to save some in spite of their resistance while allowing the rest to continue to FREELY CHOOSE to reject and resist Him? Would it be unjust for God to CHANGE the heart of some so that they FREELY CHOOSE to seek after Him (Deut. 5:29; 29:4; Ezek. 36:26-27)? What makes the difference between God allowing the former to continue in their FREE CHOICE to resist and reject God and those God choose to "work in both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Philip. 2:13)? The Bible calls it "grace."

Nothing prevents the damnation of sinners but their own free choice to reject and resist God and nothing can save such sinners from that kind of FREE CHOICE but the grace of God.

The real question here is why would God save ANY at all because HOLINESS would demand the complete damnation of the whole race and none can demand "grace" or "mercy" as that would invalidate the very meaning of "grace" and "mercy."

Until you can see that you are completely undeserving of salvation and justly deserve hell you will never understand the meaning of "grace" or "holiness."

No, I do not believe as you do. God cannot do everything. God cannot sin, God cannot lie, God cannot tempt a man to do evil. God is not just omnipotent, he is morally perfect. He is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

God would not call men to be saved whom he knew cannot possibly be saved. This would be a mocking, insincere invitation. In reality, it is no invitation at all. God does not mislead people, lead them to believe they might be saved when God knows they cannot. In reality, believing this is to believe that God can lie. And the scriptures say God cannot lie.

Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Calvinism exalts God's sovereignty and omnipotence at the expense of his holiness. Holiness is God's greatest attribute, not his power or sovereignty.

What do the four beasts cry before God night and day for eternity?

Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Calvinism makes a mockery of God's holiness.

 

[Winman]

No, you are incorrect. In Romans 1, Paul was quoting Psalms 14 which the Jews he was addressing knew well. This Psalms is not saying all men are utterly wicked, in fact, it is contrasting the wicked to those who trust in God.

Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.
6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.
7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

Calvinsim loves to proof text, pull scripture out of context, and this is a perfect example. Yes, in verses 1-3 it says all men are turned aside, they don't seek God, there are none that do good.

But if you just read a little more you see that this Psalm is contrasting the wicked versus the righteous. God speaks of "my people", the "generation of the righteous", the poor who trust in God...

The Jews knew this Psalms well, and knew that Paul was not speaking of all men. It is people today who do not know the scriptures well that err.

And if all men were utterly wicked in Noah's day, wouldn't Noah and his family have been wicked as well?

This is what happens when you pull scripture out of context to attempt to make the scriptures fit your preconceived doctrine.

 

[Winman]

The Holiness of God could justly condemn all mankind to hell based upon their own free choice to reject God. Nothing prevents the salvation of any sinner but their own FREE WILL to reject, resist God due to inborn "enmity" toward God (Rom. 8:7).

This is another fallacy of Calvinism. You say unregenerate men have free will, yet they are enslaved to their nature and can only choose against God. That that is an illogical impossibility seems to elude Calvinists.

To have free will, you have to truly have the ability to choose for God, or choose against him. If you are incapable of making this choice then you do not have free will. You cannot be both free and in bondage at the same time.

And the scriptures show men have true free will, they can choose for God or against.

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

I guess Joshua was mistaken here, believing these people could make a choice.

 

[Dr. Walter]

My friend, it is not "Romans 1" but Romans 3. Paul does not agree with your assessment of Psalm 14 because he does not quote the remainder of that psalm but only quotes verses 2-3 and then he applies it to all mankind (Rom. 3:9-20 "whole world") not just to the wicked in David's time. So you are applying it differently than Paul and he is inspired but you are not.

No, you are incorrect. In Romans 1, Paul was quoting Psalms 14 which the Jews he was addressing knew well. This Psalms is not saying all men are utterly wicked, in fact, it is contrasting the wicked to those who trust in God.

Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.
6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.
7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

Calvinsim loves to proof text, pull scripture out of context, and this is a perfect example. Yes, in verses 1-3 it says all men are turned aside, they don't seek God, there are none that do good.

But if you just read a little more you see that this Psalm is contrasting the wicked versus the righteous. God speaks of "my people", the "generation of the righteous", the poor who trust in God...

The Jews knew this Psalms well, and knew that Paul was not speaking of all men. It is people today who do not know the scriptures well that err.

And if all men were utterly wicked in Noah's day, wouldn't Noah and his family have been wicked as well?

This is what happens when you pull scripture out of context to attempt to make the scriptures fit your preconceived doctrine.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Just like God, man's will is a slave to his nature. Remember, you stated that there are certain things God CANNOT do and you named several things, such as "lie" etc.

Ask yourself this question, what makes it impossible for God to CHOOSE to do these things? Is it because he lacks FREE CHOICE or is it because such things are contrary to His nature and he lacks contrary choice to His own nature??? His nature prevents DESIRE to choose that option!

Likewise, with fallen man. He has a nature that prevents any kind of desire to seek after God (Rom. 8:9). Both his mind and heart are at enmity with God and therefore he does not choose to submit to God and "neither indeed can".

Does God have the ability to FREELY CHOOSE what is contrary to His nature of holiness, righteousness and goodness? If not, then man does not have the ability to FREELY CHOOSE contrary to his nature of unholiness, unrighteousenss and evil.

Hence, what must happen for sinful man to choose to seek after God and submit to God?

God provides the answer in Deut. 29:4 and Ezek. 36:26-27 if you will believe it? But are you able to believe it? I don't think you have the ability to believe this truth unless God gives that ability to you (Mt. 13:10-11) even though it is clearly spelled out in Scripture.

I challenge to read Deuteronomy 29:4 and Ezek. 36:26 and ask yourself some very simply questions. Which comes first? Being given the heart by God or having the ability to perceive, see and hear spiritual things (Deut. 29:4)? Which comes first, being given a new heart and spirit by God or the desire to obey Him (Ezek. 36:26-27)?

This is another fallacy of Calvinism. You say unregenerate men have free will, yet they are enslaved to their nature and can only choose against God. That that is an illogical impossibility seems to elude Calvinists.

To have free will, you have to truly have the ability to choose for God, or choose against him. If you are incapable of making this choice then you do not have free will. You cannot be both free and in bondage at the same time.

And the scriptures show men have true free will, they can choose for God or against.

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

I guess Joshua was mistaken here, believing these people could make a choice.