Drawing and John 6

[Dr. Walter]

My dear Sir, you are pitting your uninspired interpretations against the explicit and clear statements of Christ!!!

Jesus explicitly states in John 6:39 that "OF ALL" which are given to him by the Father gives "I SHOULD LOSE NOTHING." How many "OF ALL" given will he lose? "I SHOULD LOSE NOTHING"

Therefore He does not give ALL MANKIND to Christ but only the elect as Jesus explicitly teaches in John 17:2. In John 17:2 he has power over "ALL FLESH" but he gives eternal life to only those GIVEN to Christ.

Jesus explicitly states in John 6:37 that "ALL" which are given by the father "SHALL COME." How many "shall come"? ANSWER: "ALL"

Jesus explicitly states in John 6:37 that those who come to him he will raise up again at the last day? How many will come to him? "ALL." Therefore, how many will he raise up at the last day? "ALL" those given. This is the same "ALL" in verse 39 of which he says "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING."

Therefore Jesus is speaking of ALL THE ELECT and ONLY THE ELECT or else you have UNIVERSAL SALVATION as there is no other way to escape the word "ALL" with NONE BEING LOST.

YOUR intepretation of Christ's words in John 12 fail to consider the immediate context. Jesus is not contradicting his words in John 6:44-45 and 64-65. Those drawn in John 6:44-45 include more than Jews but include gentiles and it is gentiles that are brought to Jesus in the John 12 context which introduces this statement by Christ. In addition the word "man" is not found in the Greek text and the word translated "all" in the Greek text is without the definite article and therefore means "all kinds or classes" thus perfectly fitting the context. John 12 is all men without distinction of race, gender and social standing rathe than all men without exception. John 6:44-45 proves it is all without distinction rather than all without exception.

You are wrong in regard to John 6:44-45. NONE "can" (ability) come to Christ except they are drawn by the Father. How many can come without being drawn by the Father? NONE. "OF ALL" that come to Christ how many are lost according to Jesus in verse 39? "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING."

In verse 45 how many shall be "taught of God"? Answer "ALL"! How many that are taught of God come to Christ? Answer "EVERYONE." How do we know that is true? Because Christ says that the same "him" that is drawn by the Father in verse 44a is raised by the Son in verse 44b.

Acts 7:51 teaches the same truth about the complete depravity of the fallen nature. Stephen gives no EXCEPTIONS to depraved resistance and rejection by fallen men - "ye do ALWAYS resist....EVEN AS YOUR FATHERS" There are no exception to how fallen mankind with a fallen nature respond to the Holy Spirit. He did not say "ye do MOST OF THE TIME" but "ALWAYS." He did not say "ye ARE AN EXCEPTION TO THE RULE to how your fathers reacted!


Carefully reread what I have stated above before giving an answer because so far you simply have ignored the very words Jesus said as well as the context in which they are found.

You are correct with #1, but you err with both #2 and #3.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

If you come to Christ, you were drawn. Jesus said he would draw all men unto himself.

But not all men who are drawn come. Some resist as Stephen said in Acts 8.

Not everyone that the Father teaches will come to Christ, some will resist. But those who do come were indeed taught by the Father.

I get a little tired of this argument from Calvinists and cannot help but believe they are being purposely disingenuous here. In Matthew 22 Jesus clearly speaks of men who are called and bidden to the wedding but refuse to come. So it is obvious that not all who are drawn come.

All that come are drawn- This is truth supported by scripture.

All that are drawn come- This is false and not supported by scripture.

Calvinists use a false form of argument, and I am amazed that intelligent men can fall for it. It is like saying:

All cherries are red therefore everything that is red is a cherry.

Sounds silly, but that is the very type of illogical fallacy Calvinists use when it comes to this matter of men being drawn by God.

 

[Dr. Walter]

One Text at a time

Let us begin with just one text and deal with one text at a time. Let us begin with John 6:37:

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

QUESTION: What is the number of those given by the Father to Christ?

ANSWER: "ALL"


QUESTION: Who is this "ALL"?

ANSWER: It is all "the father giveth...to me"


QUESTION: Who does the Father give? All mankind or all the elect?

ANSWER: Whoever they are they are "ALL" saved


QUESTION: Do they come because they are given or are they given because they come?

ANSWER: "All that the Father gives....SHALL come"


QUESTION: How many of this "ALL" comes to Christ?

ANSWER: "ALL...shall come to me"


QUESTION: How many that come to me shall be cast out?

ANSWER: "him that cometh..I WILL IN NO WISE CAST OUT"


The Father did not give ALL MANKIND because "ALL" those given come and all mankind does not come to Christ.

The Father did not give ALL MANKIND because "ALL" those given come and Christ does not cast them out and he will cast into hell much of mankind.

"ALL" do not come IN ORDER TO BE GIVEN by the Father but they come because they have been given by the Father to Christ.

If you disagree with any of these answers to the questions or any of the final conclusions I would like to know exactly what aspect of this text you base that disagreement upon

 

[Winman]

Jesus explicitly states in John 6:39 that "OF ALL" which are given to him by the Father gives "I SHOULD LOSE NOTHING." How many "OF ALL" given will he lose? "I SHOULD LOSE NOTHING"

Because now you are saying "given" and "drawn" are the same. They are not. Many are called or drawn, but only few chosen.

If a person comes to Christ, they were given by the Father in the respect that they were taught and learned of the Father. Those who sincerely listen and believe the Father's word will come to Christ.

As I said before, you weren't walking around ignorant of the gospel and were suddenly regenerated out of the blue to have this knowledge. If you know the gospel, you either read it in the scriptures that God the Father gave, or heard preaching about Jesus from the scriptures that God the Father gave.

So, if you came to Christ, you were given to him by the Father through the scriptures which taught you to come to Christ.

But this is a whole different matter than being drawn. Drawn means to be called, or be enticed. Many men are called by God but resist and refuse to come.

Don't confuse two very different words with very different meanings.

And that a person can be taught by the scriptures and still refuse to believe in Christ is shown in scripture.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Some believe these verses are saying a person can lose their salvation. I do not believe that. I believe these verses are speaking of men who have heard the gospel and fully understand it, but refuse to trust Christ. As the earth which God gives rain upon is expected to bear crops, when God enlightens a man to understand the gospel he is expected to trust in Christ.

I believe this is speaking of a man who has once and for all rejected the gospel and is hardened. God will give up a person like this at a certain point which only God knows.

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

In Romans 1 Paul said all men have some revelation of God and so are without excuse. All men have some knowledge of God and have been taught by him to some degree. But those that willfully reject this knowledge of God, at some point God will give them over to a reprobate mind. God will allow them to be deceived by their own lies.

 

[Dr. Walter]

John 6:38-39

For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

QUESTION: Is Christ expressing the Will of His Father in this matter?

ANSWER: "this is the Father's will" - v. 39


QUESTION: This is the Father's will in regard to Who?

ANSWER: "OF ALL which he hath given me"


QUESTION: How many "OF ALL" which the Father gives him shall be lost?

ANSWER: "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING.


QUESTION: Who is it that Christ "shall raise up again at the last day"?

ANSWER: "OF ALL" the Father hath given him because "of all" I SHALL LOSE NOTHING.


QUESTION: Does this refer to anyone that has not been given by the Father?

ANSWER: No! "Of all" cannot include ALL MANKIND or else NONE WILL BE LOST and much of mankind will be lost forever. "OF ALL" refers to only those GIVEN

Therefore in verses 37-39 "ALL" equals ALL GIVEN by the Father and ALL given by the Father EQUALS all who come and all who come EQUALS "of all" being saved with nothing lost.

If you disagree with any answer or conclusion above I would like to know on what basis found in THESE TEXTS supports your disagreement.

You are correct with #1, but you err with both #2 and #3.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

If you come to Christ, you were drawn. Jesus said he would draw all men unto himself.

But not all men who are drawn come. Some resist as Stephen said in Acts 7.

Not everyone that the Father teaches will come to Christ, some will resist. But those who do come were indeed taught by the Father.

I get a little tired of this argument from Calvinists and cannot help but believe they are being purposely disingenuous here. In Matthew 22 Jesus clearly speaks of men who are called and bidden to the wedding but refuse to come. So it is obvious that not all who are drawn come.

All that come are drawn- This is truth supported by scripture.

All that are drawn come- This is false and not supported by scripture.

Calvinists use a false form of argument, and I am amazed that intelligent men can fall for it. It is like saying:

All cherries are red, therefore everything that is red is a cherry.

Sounds silly, but that is the very type of illogical fallacy Calvinists use when it comes to this matter of men being drawn by God.

 

[Dr. Walter]

John 6:44-45

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

FALSE! I am not saying that "draw" equals "given." They are not the same and you have to draw that false conclusion to escape the explicit words of Christ.

QUESTION: How many "can" come to Christ without the Father drawing them?

ANSWER: "NO MAN CAN"


QUESTION: The "him" that the Father does draw, how many are lost?

ANSWER: NONE - "I will raise HIM up at the last day"


QUESTION: In this context what does the phrase "I will raise him up at the last day" refer to?

ANSWER: In verse 39 it refers to ALL given by the Father of which "I WILL LOSE NOTHING but I will raise it up at the last day" In verse 40 it refers to those having the gift of eternal life. In verse 44 it refers to "him" that the Father draws. Hence ALL that are drawn are saved.


QUESTION: In verse 45 who are the "ALL" spoken of by the prophets who are taught of God?

ANSWER: They are "ALL" who are "taught of God"


QUESTION: In verse 45 how many of "ALL" who are taught of God come to the Son?

ANSWER: "EVERYONE" that has been taught of God comes to the Son.


QUESTION: According to John 6:37,39 how many "OF ALL" that are given come to Christ and how many "OF ALL" that come are saved?

ANWER: "OF ALL" that the Father gives shall come and I SHALL LOSE NOTHING.

God does not draw anyone who does not come and is saved as the "him" that is drawn is the same "him" that is raised up by Christ in the LAST DAY (v. 44).

God does not teach anyone who does not come to Christ and is saved as "ALL" who are taught of God "EVERYONE" comes to Christ (v. 45).

If you disagree with one answer or one conclusion I would like to know according to the text we are considering what is your basis?

You are correct with #1, but you err with both #2 and #3.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

If you come to Christ, you were drawn. Jesus said he would draw all men unto himself.

But not all men who are drawn come. Some resist as Stephen said in Acts 7.

Not everyone that the Father teaches will come to Christ, some will resist. But those who do come were indeed taught by the Father.

I get a little tired of this argument from Calvinists and cannot help but believe they are being purposely disingenuous here. In Matthew 22 Jesus clearly speaks of men who are called and bidden to the wedding but refuse to come. So it is obvious that not all who are drawn come.

All that come are drawn- This is truth supported by scripture.

All that are drawn come- This is false and not supported by scripture.

Calvinists use a false form of argument, and I am amazed that intelligent men can fall for it. It is like saying:

All cherries are red, therefore everything that is red is a cherry.

Sounds silly, but that is the very type of illogical fallacy Calvinists use when it comes to this matter of men being drawn by God.

 

[Winman]

For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

QUESTION: Is Christ expressing the Will of His Father in this matter?

ANSWER: "this is the Father's will" - v. 39

I agree.

QUESTION: This is the Father's will in regard to Who?

ANSWER: "OF ALL which he hath given me"

I agree.

QUESTION: How many "OF ALL" which the Father gives him shall be lost?

ANSWER: "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING.

I agree.

QUESTION: Who is it that Christ "shall raise up again at the last day"?

ANSWER: "OF ALL" the Father hath given him because "of all" I SHALL LOSE NOTHING.

I agree.

QUESTION: Does this refer to anyone that has not been given by the Father?

ANSWER: No! "Of all" cannot include ALL MANKIND or else NONE WILL BE LOST and much of mankind will be lost forever. "OF ALL" refers to only those GIVEN

I agree.

Therefore in verses 37-39 "ALL" equals ALL GIVEN by the Father and ALL given by the Father EQUALS all who come and all who come EQUALS "of all" being saved with nothing lost.

If you disagree with any answer or conclusion above I would like to know on what basis found in THESE TEXTS supports your disagreement.

I don't disagree with anything you have said here, it is all correct. But you are still confusing the words "given" and "drawn"

Given and drawn are two completely different words with very different meanings. Not everyone who is drawn comes, many reject Christ. I could list probably a dozen verses where the scriptures clearly say God is calling men, drawing men, enticing men to come to him, but these stubborn men refuse to obey.

A "given" person is someone who has not just audibly heard God's word, but truly and sincerely gives heed to it and believes it. They will learn from God's word that they are a sinner, they will learn Jesus died for them and rose from the dead, and they will learn they need to trust Christ for salvation. So anybody who does accept Christ must give the Father all the credit, because the Father revealed this to them. And so they come to Jesus because of the grace (scriptures) God has shown to all men.

But some men will not listen. They hear the words audibly, they may even understand the gospel, but refuse to come.

Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

This passage would be nonsense if your doctrine is true. You believe a man cannot resist God's grace, that is why it is called Irresistable Grace.

But the scriptures warn men not to turn away from God's word in unbelief.

It makes no sense if your doctrine is true, because according to your doctrine the elect cannot possibly harden their hearts making this warning meaningless, and the non-elect cannot help but harden their hearts which also makes this warning meaningless.

But if you accept that men have the ability to choose either for God or against him as the scriptures show many times, then this passage makes perfect sense.

But back to the original question, you are getting the words "given" and "drawn" mixed up. They are not the same word and have very different meanings.

All that are given by the Father will come to Christ- TRUE.

All that are drawn by the Father will come to Christ- FALSE.

 

[Dr. Walter]

The term translated "draw" does not mean "entice" or "attract." The term is ALWAYS dependent upon the POWER of the one drawing and NEVER upon the one being drawn.

The fisherman failed due to a lack of sufficient POWER but God does not have that insufficiency and therefore when God draws it is always EFFECTUAL CALLING.

PROOF: the same "he" that is drawn to Christ by the Father is the same "he" that is raised up by the Son at the last day (Jn. 6:44)

PROOF: the same "he" that is drawn to Christ by the Father is "EVERYONE" that comes to Christ (v. 45) and "EVERYONE" that comes to Christ is "ALL" the Father gave to Christ (v. 37) and "NOTHING" is lost "of all" the Father gave (v. 39).

PROOF: The Gospel can come "in word only" (1 Thes. 1:5) but not to the elect (I Thes. 1:4-5). In word only it is non-effectual but when it comes "not in word only" it comes "in power and in the Holy Ghost" (1 Thes. 1:5).

PROOF: "not many.... are called" - 1 Cor. 1:26-31 when the gospel comes "not in word only but in power and in the Holy Ghost" (1 Thes. 1:4-5) but "many are called" (Mt. 12:41) when the gospel comes "in word only" (1 Thes. 1:5) "but few chosen" or given to the Son by election (1 Thes. 1:4) when the gospel comes "not in word only" (1 Thes. 1:5).

PROOF: Only those "chosen from the beginning TO salvation" are actually "santified by the Spirit and belief of the truth" and thus "called by our gospel TBTAINING OF THE GLORY" (2 Thes. 2:13-14).

My friend there is a vast difference between YOU calling the lost by preaching the gospel and "HE" calling "you" (v. 14) previously defined as those "YOU hath GOD chosen to salvation" (v. 13). YOUR call is always non-effectual whereas when "HE" calls it is always effectual because it is always those CHOSEN FROM THE BEGINING.

Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

His calling by the gospel is ALWAYS EFFECTUAL or as Paul continues to say" TO THE OBTAINING OF THE GLORY."


The one being drawn is not the one performing the action but the recipient of the action.

Because now you are saying "given" and "drawn" are the same. They are not. Many are called or drawn, but only few chosen.

If a person comes to Christ, they were given by the Father in the respect that they were taught and learned of the Father. Those who sincerely listen and believe the Father's word will come to Christ.

As I said before, you weren't walking around ignorant of the gospel and were suddenly regenerated out of the blue to have this knowledge. If you know the gospel, you either read it in the scriptures that God the Father gave, or heard preaching about Jesus from the scriptures that God the Father gave.

So, if you came to Christ, you were given to him by the Father through the scriptures which taught you to come to Christ.

But this is a whole different matter than being drawn. Drawn means to be called, or be enticed. Many men are called by God but resist and refuse to come.

Don't confuse two very different words with very different meanings.

And that a person can be taught by the scriptures and still refuse to believe in Christ is shown in scripture.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Some believe these verses are saying a person can lose their salvation. I do not believe that. I believe these verses are speaking of men who have heard the gospel and fully understand it, but refuse to trust Christ. As the earth which God gives rain upon is expected to bear crops, when God enlightens a man to understand the gospel he is expected to trust in Christ.

I believe this is speaking of a man who has once and for all rejected the gospel and is hardened. God will give up a person like this at a certain point which only God knows.

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

In Romans 1 Paul said all men have some revelation of God and so are without excuse. All men have some knowledge of God and have been taught by him to some degree. But those that willfully reject this knowledge of God, at some point God will give them over to a reprobate mind. God will allow them to be deceived by their own lies.

 

[Dr. Walter]

QUESTION: Do men come to Christ because they are given to the Father or do they come to Christ in ordre to be given to Christ by the Father?

ANSWER: "All the Father giveth....SHALL come"

All men that are drawn by the Father as "draw" is defined by Christ in verse 45 do come to Christ and are saved.

PROOF: The same "He" that is drawn by the father is the same "HE" that Christ promises to raise again at the last day - v. 44

PROOF" The same "all" taught by the father is the same "EVERYONE" that comes to the son.

The drawing of the Father is defined in verse 45 to be "taught" by the Father.

QUESTION: How many are taught by the Father?

ANSWER: "ALL" are taught - v. 45


QUESTION: How many taught come?

ANSWER: "EVERYONE" comes to the Son that hath been "taught" as described in verse 45b.

The fact that "ALL" are said to be taught of God as described in the latter part of this verse proves that ALL MANKIND are not drawn by the Father because all mankind have not been taught by the Father as described in verse 45b. "EVERYONE" taught as described in verse 45b do come and none that come are lost.

What you are confusing is the general call of the gospel, the general revelation in conscience and nature and the effectual call which is likened to God calling into existence light in Genesis 1:2-3:

For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. - 2 Cor. 4:6

"Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the (Rhema - Commanded) word of God." - Rom. 10:17.

The very next verse goes on to say "have they not all heard" (referring to Israel) but they heard with the OUTER EAR not the INNER EAR as the ability to hear from the INNER ear is a gift of God:

Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day. - Deut. 29:4

I agree.




I agree.




I agree.




I agree.




I agree.



I don't disagree with anything you have said here, it is all correct. But you are still confusing the words "given" and "drawn"

Given and drawn are two completely different words with very different meanings. Not everyone who is drawn comes, many reject Christ. I could list probably a dozen verses where the scriptures clearly say God is calling men, drawing men, enticing men to come to him, but these stubborn men refuse to obey.

A "given" person is someone who has not just audibly heard God's word, but truly and sincerely gives heed to it and believes it. They will learn from God's word that they are a sinner, they will learn Jesus died for them and rose from the dead, and they will learn they need to trust Christ for salvation. So anybody who does accept Christ must give the Father all the credit, because the Father revealed this to them. And so they come to Jesus because of the grace (scriptures) God has shown to all men.

But some men will not listen. They hear the words audibly, they may even understand the gospel, but refuse to come.

Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

This passage would be nonsense if your doctrine is true. You believe a man cannot resist God's grace, that is why it is called Irresistable Grace.

But the scriptures warn men not to turn away from God's word in unbelief.

It makes no sense if your doctrine is true, because according to your doctrine the elect cannot possibly harden their hearts making this warning meaningless, and the non-elect cannot help but harden their hearts which also makes this warning meaningless.

But if you accept that men have the ability to choose either for God or against him as the scriptures show many times, then this passage makes perfect sense.

But back to the original question, you are getting the words "given" and "drawn" mixed up. They are not the same word and have very different meanings.

All that are given by the Father will come to Christ- TRUE.

All that are drawn by the Father will come to Christ- FALSE.

 

[Winman]

All men that are drawn by the Father as "draw" is defined by Christ in verse 45 do come to Christ and are saved.

I don't know what version you are reading, but my KJV does not have the word drawn in it.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

So again, you are confusing "given" with "drawn". This verse does not speak one word about being drawn.

I think you meant verse 44 where it does say drawn. But read it carefully.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Does this verse say that all that are drawn will come? No, it does not. Read it carefully. It does not say that. It says no man can come unless he is drawn. That is a very different thing.

He who comes to Christ was drawn- TRUE

All that are drawn come to Christ- FALSE

You cannot seem to discern the difference here, but there is a significant difference in these two statements if you read carefully.

 

[Winman]

I gave this analogy before:

I have 4 kids playing outside and it is suppertime. I go out in the yard and whistle loudly (when I grew up there was a man who called his kids everyday at suppertime by doing just this). My children all know that this whistle is a call to come home immediately for supper.

Two of my children obey and come home immediately. The other two hear my whistle but are having fun playing with their friends and ignore my calling.

Were they all called or drawn by me? Yes

Were those that obeyed and came home immediately called by me? Yes.

Were those that disobeyed and did not come home called? Yes.

Now this is a simple but accurate analogy. My friend Mark was the one whose father would come out and whistle when it was suppertime. Most of the time he would obey, but occasionally we were playing football or some other game and he wanted to continue. We would say, "Mark, your Dad is whistling for you, you better run home.". He would say, "Nah, I want to keep playing football."

Now, that is a true story that used to happen all the time when I was a kid in my neighborhood.

 

[Dr. Walter]

You have not responded to post #67. Respond to that one and you will see that everyone who is drawn comes to Christ.

I don't know what version you are reading, but my KJV does not have the word drawn in it.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

So again, you are confusing "given" with "drawn". This verse does not speak one word about being drawn.

I think you meant verse 44 where it does say drawn. But read it carefully.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Does this verse say that all that are drawn will come? No, it does not. Read it carefully. It does not say that. It says no man can come unless he is drawn. That is a very different thing.

He who comes to Christ was drawn- TRUE

All that are drawn come to Christ- FALSE

You cannot seem to discern the difference here, but there is a significant difference in these two statements if you read carefully.

 

[Dr. Walter]

You are confused about two issues. Drawing is not calling. You analogy may work for your kids but it has nothing to do with the meaning of the term "draw" in the scriptures. The second issue you are confused about is calling. There is a difference between YOU calling sinners by preaching the gospel and GOD calling sinners THROUGH the preaching of the gospel. The former goes not further than the outer ear while the latter creates the inner ear that hears.

I have given you five Biblical proofs between calling by preachers and calling by God and you have not responded to them.

You had to go OUTSIDE the scriptures to justify your thinking.

I gave this analogy before:

I have 4 kids playing outside and it is suppertime. I go out in the yard and whistle loudly (when I grew up there was a man who called his kids everyday at suppertime by doing just this). My children all know that this whistle is a call to come home immediately for supper.

Two of my children obey and come home immediately. The other two hear my whistle but are having fun playing with their friends and ignore my calling.

Were they all called or drawn by me? Yes

Were those that obeyed and came home immediately called by me? Yes.

Were those that disobeyed and did not come home called? Yes.

Now this is a simple but accurate analogy. My friend Mark was the one whose father would come out and whistle when it was suppertime. Most of the time he would obey, but occasionally we were playing football or some other game and he wanted to continue. We would say, "Mark, your Dad is whistling for you, you better run home.". He would say, "Nah, I want to keep playing football."

Now, that is a true story that used to happen all the time when I was a kid in my neighborhood.

 

[jbh28]

Given and drawn are two completely different words with very different meanings. Not everyone who is drawn comes, many reject Christ. I could list probably a dozen verses where the scriptures clearly say God is calling men, drawing men, enticing men to come to him, but these stubborn men refuse to obey.

All that are given by the Father will come to Christ- TRUE.

All that are drawn by the Father will come to Christ- FALSE.

Can you give ONE passage that says that God draws someone that doesn't come? And by that I mean uses the word drawn. I don't think you are grasping the point that DRAW means they come. Basic, elementary definition of the word.

Also, vs 44 says that All that are drawn will be raised up in the last day.

 

[jbh28]

Because now you are saying "given" and "drawn" are the same. They are not. Many are called or drawn, but only few chosen.



But this is a whole different matter than being drawn. Drawn means to be called, or be enticed. Many men are called by God but resist and refuse to come.

That is not the definition of drawn. Drawn is more narrow than enticed. Drawn means that the object or person came. Draw a big crowd only means the ones that came, not all that are invited.

 

[Winman]

That is not the definition of drawn. Drawn is more narrow than enticed. Drawn means that the object or person came. Draw a big crowd only means the ones that came, not all that are invited.

Trench's synonyms disagrees with your interpretation and says force is not implied.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/trench/section.cfm?sectionID=21&lexicon=true&strongs=G1670

Only by keeping in mind the difference which thus exists between these, can we vindicate from erroneous interpretation two doctrinally important passages in the Gospel of St. John. The first is 12:32: “I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men [πάντας ἑλκύσω] unto Me.” But how does a crucified, and thus an exalted, Saviour draw all men unto Him? Not by force, for the will is incapable of force, but by the divine attractions of his love. Again (6:44): “No man can come to Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him” (ἑλκύσῃ αὐτόν). Now as many as feel bound to deny any such ‘gratia irresistibilis’ as turns man into a machine, and by which, willing or unwilling, he is dragged to God, must at once allow, must indeed assert, that this ἑλκύσῃ can mean no more than the potent allurements, the allective force of love, the attracting of men by the Father to the Son; compare Jer. 31:3, “With loving-kindness have I drawn thee” (εἵλκυσά σε), and Cant. 1:3, 4. Did we find αύρειν on either of these occasions (not that this would be possible), the assertors of a ‘gratia irresistibilis’1 might then urge the declarations of our Lord as leaving no room for any other meaning but theirs; but not as they now stand.

You can draw a fish right up to the boat, doesn't mean you'll get it in the boat.

 

[jbh28]

Trench's synonyms disagrees with your interpretation and says force is not implied.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/trench/section.cfm?sectionID=21&lexicon=true&strongs=G1670

Way to totally side step my point and bring out something that I have already said. I never said force was done. I said that the person comes, freely. Why does this person come, because he is drawn. Verse 44 says that. Drawn here in this passage means to attract to cause to come.

So no, this doesn't disagree with MY interpretation, only the straw man version of mine. The Greek can be either drawn or drag. With the passage speaking of the person coming, drawn is the correct translation and not drag. Now back to my point. Drawn ALWAYS implies that the action took place. Go look up the definition of the word. Also, the passage says that all that are drawn, will be raised up in the last day. There is no such thing as being drawn and not coming. Drawn would be the incorrect term if some didn't come.

You can draw a fish right up to the boat, doesn't mean you'll get it in the boat.

Well, in that case I drew the fish to the boat, I did not draw the fish into the boat....

Basic definition of the word. You can't change the definition just because it doesn't fit you theology.

 

[Winman]

Also, the passage says that all that are drawn, will be raised up in the last day.

That is not what it says. It says all who come were drawn, and those that come (which were drawn) shall be raised up in the last day.

That is not the same thing as saying all who are drawn will come.

All that come were drawn- TRUE Supported by scripture

All that are drawn will come- FALSE Not supported by scripture

All that come will be raised up the last day- TRUE Supported by scripture

All that are drawn will be raised up the last day- FALSE Not supported by scripture

See, your thinking process has been programmed (by Calvinist teaching) to only understand this as a fallacy. As the example I gave before, you think something like this;

All cherries are red, therefore all red things are cherries.

So, you think;

All who come were drawn, therefore all who are drawn will come.

But that is an error and a fallacy.

The scriptures never once say all who are drawn will come. If you think so, show the verse. In fact, the scriptures show many times those who are called or drawn by God refuse to come as in Matthew 22.

 

[jbh28]

That is not what it says. It says all who come were drawn, and those that come (which were drawn) shall be raised up in the last day.

That is not the same thing as saying all who are drawn will come.

All that come were drawn- TRUE Supported by scripture

All that are drawn will come- FALSE Not supported by scripture

ALL that come will be raised up the last day- TRUE Supported by scripture

See, your thinking process has been programmed (by Calvinist teaching) to only understand this as a fallacy. As the example I gave before, you think something like this;

All cherries are red, therefore all red things are cherries.

So, you think;

All who come were drawn, therefore all who are drawn will come.

But that is an error and a fallacy.

The scriptures never once say all who are drawn will come. If you think so, show the verse. In fact, the scriptures show many times those who are called or drawn by God refuse to come as in Matthew 22.

1. You still are ignoring that fact that you are using drawn incorrectly. Called and drawn are not synonyms. Matthew 22 does not say that people that are drawn, refuse to come. It's not there. I asked you to supply a passage that says that some are drawn, but don't come. Which of corse is impossible. It's like saying somebody killed 10 people, but only 5 died. No, then he only killed 5 people.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/draw
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/draw
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/draw

all that are drawn, come. Or They were not drawn. Please stop changing the definition of words because it doesn't fit your theology.
2. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jesus says that no man can come, unless he is drawn AND he will be raised up in the last day. It says "I will raise him." Who is this "him"? It is the one drawn, which is also the one that came.

 

[Winman]

That is the most bogus argument. When God calls you, when God bids you as shown in Matthew 22, that is being drawn. It is being enticed (as that article from Trench's said) , persuaded, convinced, it is putting an influence upon you.

Look again what Trench's said "drawn" means:

that this ἑλκύσῃ can mean no more than the potent allurements, the allective force of love, the attracting of men by the Father to the Son;

Drawn here means to be allured, to be enticed or seduced, to be attracted to. It also means to be called as in Proverbs when it speaks of a wicked woman who calls to men who pass her by, attempting to seduce them.

Prov 7:6 For at the window of my house I looked through my casement,
7 And beheld among the simple ones, I discerned among the youths, a young man void of understanding,
8 Passing through the street near her corner; and he went the way to her house,
9 In the twilight, in the evening, in the black and dark night:
10 And, behold, there met him a woman with the attire of an harlot, and subtil of heart.
11 (She is loud and stubborn; her feet abide not in her house:
12 Now is she without, now in the streets, and lieth in wait at every corner.)
13 So she caught him, and kissed him, and with an impudent face said unto him,
14 I have peace offerings with me; this day have I payed my vows.
15 Therefore came I forth to meet thee, diligently to seek thy face, and I have found thee.
16 I have decked my bed with coverings of tapestry, with carved works, with fine linen of Egypt.
17 I have perfumed my bed with myrrh, aloes, and cinnamon.
18 Come, let us take our fill of love until the morning: let us solace ourselves with loves.
19 For the goodman is not at home, he is gone a long journey:
20 He hath taken a bag of money with him, and will come home at the day appointed.
21 With her much fair speech she caused him to yield, with the flattering of her lips she forced him.
22 He goeth after her straightway, as an ox goeth to the slaughter, or as a fool to the correction of the stocks;

Jesus draws men to him with love as Trench's said. A man is not forced, he is enticed, he is allured, he is called, just as this woman called to young men who passed by.

There is not much use in continuing with you, you don't want to know the truth.

 

[jbh28]

That is the most bogus argument. When God calls you, when God bids you as shown in Matthew 22, that is being drawn. It is being enticed (as that article from Trench's said) , persuaded, convinced, it is putting an influence upon you.

Look again what Trench's said "drawn" means:



Drawn here means to be allured, to be enticed or seduced, to be attracted to. It also means to be called as in Proverbs when it speaks of a wicked woman who calls to men who pass her by, attempting to seduce them.

You are refusing to understand the definition of the term drawn. You keep using it the wrong way because it doesn't fit your theology. I asked you to show one passage where it says a person is drawn, but doesn't come. You still have failed to do this.

Jesus draws men to him with love as Trench's said. A man is not forced, he is enticed, he is allured, he is called, just as this woman called to young men who passed by.

Yes, but draw and called are not synonyms. A person is considered to have been drawn AFTER he comes. Before he comes, he hasn't been drawn yet.

Here is the definition
1. to bring toward oneself or itself, as by inherent force or influence; attract: (The concert drew a large audience.)
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/draw

Are all that are called come, no. All that are drawn come, or they were not drawn. Again, you refuse to accept the definition of the word....unless you think the word shouldn't be draw?

There is not much use in continuing with you, you don't want to know the truth.

Of course, because you don't want to admit you are wrong. Your theology doesn't fit into the word draw, so you change the definition of the term draw. I have given you the definition, which you ignore. You use straw man by saying I think a person is forced, which I have not.(not meaning that a force wasn't being used). You then go and say I don't want to know the truth. That is totally untrue and uncalled for. I would expect a higher level of discussion from you. I do want to know the truth. I want to know that the Bible teaches, but I'm not going to change the definition of words to suit my theology.