Drawing and John 6

[jbh28]

I gave this analogy before:

I have 4 kids playing outside and it is suppertime. I go out in the yard and whistle loudly (when I grew up there was a man who called his kids everyday at suppertime by doing just this). My children all know that this whistle is a call to come home immediately for supper.

Two of my children obey and come home immediately. The other two hear my whistle but are having fun playing with their friends and ignore my calling.

Were they all called or drawn by me? Yes

No, all were called, only 2 were drawn

Were those that obeyed and came home immediately called by me? Yes.

Agree

Were those that disobeyed and did not come home called? Yes.

agree

Now this is a simple but accurate analogy. My friend Mark was the one whose father would come out and whistle when it was suppertime. Most of the time he would obey, but occasionally we were playing football or some other game and he wanted to continue. We would say, "Mark, your Dad is whistling for you, you better run home.". He would say, "Nah, I want to keep playing football."

Now, that is a true story that used to happen all the time when I was a kid in my neighborhood.

My friend used to hind behind a tree when he was called home

however, you are equating called and drawn. they are not synonymous. A person that comes is one that has been drawn. We drew a big crowd. Did we call many people. Yes. Did all we call come? No. Did all we drew come. yes.

 

[Winman]

OK, I'm pretty tired of dealing with you, you are not really interested in finding real answers. But I am going to show you a passage where God says he is both calling and drawing Israel. I doubt you will listen, but I'll show you anyway.

Hos 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.
2 As they called them, so they went from them: they sacrificed unto Baalim, and burned incense to graven images.
3 I taught Ephraim also to go, taking them by their arms; but they knew not that I healed them.
4 I drew them with cords of a man, with bands of love: and I was to them as they that take off the yoke on their jaws, and I laid meat unto them.

Here God says he called and drew Israel. It is the same thing. Believe it if you wish, or reject it if you wish.

 

[jbh28]

OK, I'm pretty tired of dealing with you, you are not really interested in finding real answers.

Why must you bear false witness such as this winman? Can you not be honest? I do attempt to know the truth. I just don't change the definitions of words.

But I am going to show you a passage where God says he is both calling and drawing Israel. I doubt you will listen, but I'll show you anyway.

FINALLY, what took you so long. Maybe e-sword wasn't working for you.

Hos 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.
2 As they called them, so they went from them: they sacrificed unto Baalim, and burned incense to graven images.
3 I taught Ephraim also to go, taking them by their arms; but they knew not that I healed them.
4 I drew them with cords of a man, with bands of love: and I was to them as they that take off the yoke on their jaws, and I laid meat unto them.

Here God says he called and drew Israel. It is the same thing. Believe it if you wish, or reject it if you wish.

No, again it is not the same thing. Did you look up the definitions I gave you, or did you ignore those?

Here it is again

1. to bring toward oneself or itself, as by inherent force or influence; attract: (The concert drew a large audience.)​

The ones in verse 4 were the ones that came, not the ones that didn't come. It doesn't say that draw and called are equals. Now, if all that were called came, then all were drawn. And in that instance all that are called were drawn. This is only if all come.

Now, I challenge you again, please show one passage that says someone was drawn, but didn't come.

Now, please respond to everything of my post, instead of just picking and choice and ignoring the points you don't like. Also, keep this at a high level and stop the "you're not after the truth" type of statements.

 

[Winman]

No, I will not show you anything more. You will find some way to wiggle out of it no matter what I showed you.

The parable Jesus told in Matthew 22 is good enough. He clearly says God called and bid men to come to the wedding of his Son. They wouldn't obey so he destroyed them. If that doesn't convince you that men have the ability to resist God's calling and drawing, nothing I could possibly show you would ever convince you.

If you ever get interested in the truth, ask someone else, I don't believe you.

 

[jbh28]

No, I will not show you anything more. You will find some way to wiggle out of it no matter what I showed you.

The parable Jesus told in Matthew 22 is good enough. He clearly says God called and bid men to come to the wedding of his Son. They wouldn't obey so he destroyed them. If that doesn't convince you that men have the ability to resist God's calling and drawing, nothing I could possibly show you would ever convince you.

If you ever get interested in the truth, ask someone else, I don't believe you.

Winman, you really don't get it do you. I never said that God calls people and none reject. Yes, God has called many, but men have the ability to resist. I have never said differently. What I have said is that calling and drawing are different. I gave you definitions of the terms, but you keep side stepping(again with this post) away from it.

You said nothing would convince me. Well show me a passage where it says that one is drawn(I didn't say called) and they didn't come. You haven't given one yet.

 

[jbh28]

I thought I would bump these up. I figured if somebody else wanted to discuss this, we could go back and see this again.

The term translated "draw" does not mean "entice" or "attract." The term is ALWAYS dependent upon the POWER of the one drawing and NEVER upon the one being drawn.

The fisherman failed due to a lack of sufficient POWER but God does not have that insufficiency and therefore when God draws it is always EFFECTUAL CALLING.

PROOF: the same "he" that is drawn to Christ by the Father is the same "he" that is raised up by the Son at the last day (Jn. 6:44)

PROOF: the same "he" that is drawn to Christ by the Father is "EVERYONE" that comes to Christ (v. 45) and "EVERYONE" that comes to Christ is "ALL" the Father gave to Christ (v. 37) and "NOTHING" is lost "of all" the Father gave (v. 39).

PROOF: The Gospel can come "in word only" (1 Thes. 1:5) but not to the elect (I Thes. 1:4-5). In word only it is non-effectual but when it comes "not in word only" it comes "in power and in the Holy Ghost" (1 Thes. 1:5).

PROOF: "not many.... are called" - 1 Cor. 1:26-31 when the gospel comes "not in word only but in power and in the Holy Ghost" (1 Thes. 1:4-5) but "many are called" (Mt. 12:41) when the gospel comes "in word only" (1 Thes. 1:5) "but few chosen" or given to the Son by election (1 Thes. 1:4) when the gospel comes "not in word only" (1 Thes. 1:5).

PROOF: Only those "chosen from the beginning TO salvation" are actually "santified by the Spirit and belief of the truth" and thus "called by our gospel TBTAINING OF THE GLORY" (2 Thes. 2:13-14).

My friend there is a vast difference between YOU calling the lost by preaching the gospel and "HE" calling "you" (v. 14) previously defined as those "YOU hath GOD chosen to salvation" (v. 13). YOUR call is always non-effectual whereas when "HE" calls it is always effectual because it is always those CHOSEN FROM THE BEGINING.

Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

His calling by the gospel is ALWAYS EFFECTUAL or as Paul continues to say" TO THE OBTAINING OF THE GLORY."


The one being drawn is not the one performing the action but the recipient of the action.

QUESTION: Do men come to Christ because they are given to the Father or do they come to Christ in ordre to be given to Christ by the Father?

ANSWER: "All the Father giveth....SHALL come"

All men that are drawn by the Father as "draw" is defined by Christ in verse 45 do come to Christ and are saved.

PROOF: The same "He" that is drawn by the father is the same "HE" that Christ promises to raise again at the last day - v. 44

PROOF" The same "all" taught by the father is the same "EVERYONE" that comes to the son.

The drawing of the Father is defined in verse 45 to be "taught" by the Father.

QUESTION: How many are taught by the Father?

ANSWER: "ALL" are taught - v. 45


QUESTION: How many taught come?

ANSWER: "EVERYONE" comes to the Son that hath been "taught" as described in verse 45b.

The fact that "ALL" are said to be taught of God as described in the latter part of this verse proves that ALL MANKIND are not drawn by the Father because all mankind have not been taught by the Father as described in verse 45b. "EVERYONE" taught as described in verse 45b do come and none that come are lost.

What you are confusing is the general call of the gospel, the general revelation in conscience and nature and the effectual call which is likened to God calling into existence light in Genesis 1:2-3:

For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. - 2 Cor. 4:6

"Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the (Rhema - Commanded) word of God." - Rom. 10:17.

The very next verse goes on to say "have they not all heard" (referring to Israel) but they heard with the OUTER EAR not the INNER EAR as the ability to hear from the INNER ear is a gift of God:

Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day. - Deut. 29:4

 

[quantumfaith]

Winman, you really don't get it do you. I never said that God calls people and none reject. Yes, God has called many, but men have the ability to resist. I have never said differently. What I have said is that calling and drawing are different. I gave you definitions of the terms, but you keep side stepping(again with this post) away from it.

You said nothing would convince me. Well show me a passage where it says that one is drawn(I didn't say called) and they didn't come. You haven't given one yet.

jbh, help me out. If God only "draws" some, what is to made of 2 Peter 3:9. "not wanting any to perish but everyone to come to repentance", and also is not "coming to repentence" a conditional?

 

[Dr. Walter]

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us–ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

The key here is identification of the subject "us-ward." The context deals with the "promise" of the Lord's return. Peter predicts that in the last days yet to come scoffers will arise and make light of the Lord's promise to return due to the language of this promise. The language of the promise indicates He would return quickly. The scoffers would point out that due to the long period of time He did not keep his promise to return quickly.

Paul gives the proper understanding of the language of his promise. He says that we are not to "count" or intepret the promise to return quickly according to how human "count" quickness but according to how God counts quickness:

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 ¶ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness;

He then gives a reason why the Lord is not coming quickly as men count his promise of a quick or soon return. He is intentionally holding back in order to complete his redemptive purposes toward "us-ward." The redemptive plans are those he says outlined by Paul:

And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

He is particularly referring to "some things hard to be understood" which were written by Paul concerning "salvation" or the doctrine of election. Paul is the foremost New Testament writer on the doctrine of election (Rom. 9-11).

The "us-ward" has reference to God's eternal purpose of election in salvation. God has chosen a people to be redeemed and the Lord will not return until ALL of the elect are saved (Rom. 11; Eph. 1:4; 2 Thes. 2:13; 1 Tim. 1:7; Rom. 8-11).

God's purpose of election is spelled out by Paul in Romans 9-11 but especially Romans 11 in regard to God's overall plan of redemption of the elect Jews and Gentiles in reference to His second coming (Rom. 11:25-32):

Rom. 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded......25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.


Peter rightly concludes that Paul's teaching on salvation is "hard to be understood which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

Finally, the term "us-ward" is in direct contrast to the "scoffers" in this context who represent those who will not repent and come to the truth. Christ is waiting to all of His "elect" are saved before He returns.

jbh, help me out. If God only "draws" some, what is to made of 2 Peter 3:9. "not wanting any to perish but everyone to come to repentance", and also is not "coming to repentence" a conditional?

 

[Winman]

The fisherman failed due to a lack of sufficient POWER but God does not have that insufficiency and therefore when God draws it is always EFFECTUAL CALLING.

Incorrect. Even the Lord loses some fish, and I will show you that from scripture itself if you will accept it.

Luke 5:6 And when they had this done, they inclosed a great multitude of fishes: and their net brake.

This is the story where Simon Peter and Andrew were fishing. They had toiled all night long and caught nothing. Christ tells them to launch out from shore and let down their nets. Peter tells the Lord they have already fished all night without any success, but he will obey Jesus's command. They caught so many fish that their net brake.

The scriptures do not tell us the net brake here without reason. Many fish got away. They were drawn, they were pulled just like the other fish, but when the net broke many escaped. Yes, a great number of fish were caught, but nevertheless a great many also escaped.

The passage I showed earlier in Hosea is also an example of people being drawn who resisted God.

Hos 11:4 I drew them with cords of a man, with bands of love: and I was to them as they that take off the yoke on their jaws, and I laid meat unto them.

Here the Lord says he drew the Jews with the cords of a man, with the bands of love. This is speaking of alluring, or enticing, or seducing. That is the meaning of "drawn" in John 6 and "draw" in John 12 as well.

But the Jews resisted God and backslid away, that is what Hosea is speaking about in this chapter.

Hos 11:7 And my people are bent to backsliding from me: though they called them to the most High, none at all would exalt him.

So, here is an example of men being drawn by God who resisted and pulled away from God.

Don't take my word for it, here is what Matthem Henry a Calvinist said of Hosea 11. I will only show portions as it is too much text.

(v. 4): I drew them with cords of a man, with bands of love. Note, It is God’s work to draw poor souls to himself; and none can come to him except he draw them, Jn. 6:44. He draws, (1.) With the cords of a man, with such cords as men draw with that have a principle of humanity, or such cords as men are drawn with; he dealt with them as men, in an equitable rational way, in an easy gentle way, with the cords of Adam. He dealt with them as with Adam in innocency, bringing them at once into a paradise, and into covenant with himself. (2.) With bands of love, or cartropes of love. This word signifies stronger cords than the former. He did not drive them by force into his service, whether they would or no, nor rule them with rigour, nor detain them by violence, but his attractives were all loving and endearing, all sweet and gentle, that he might overcome them with kindness. Moses, whom he made their guide, was the meekest man in the world. Kindnesses among men we commonly call obligations, or bonds, bonds of love. Thus God draws with the savour of his good ointments (Cant. 1:4), draws with lovingkindness, Jer. 31:3. Thus God deals with us, and we must deal in like manner with those that are under our instruction and government, deal rationally and mildly with them. 6. He eased them of the burdens they had been long groaning under: I was to them as those that take off the yoke on their jaws, alluding to the care of the good husbandman, who is merciful to his beast, and will not tire him with hard and constant labour. Probably, in those times, the yoke on the neck of the oxen was fastened with some bridle, or headstall, over the jaws, which muzzled the mouth of the ox. Israel in Egypt were thus restrained from the enjoyments of their comforts and constrained to hard labour; but God eased them, removed their shoulder from the burden, Ps. 81:6. Note, Liberty is a great mercy, especially out of bondage. 7. He supplied them with food convenient. In Egypt they fared hard, but, when God brought them out, he laid meat unto them, as the husbandman, when he has unyoked his cattle, fodders them. God rained manna about their camp, bread from heaven, angels’ food; other creatures seek their meat, but God laid meat to his own people, as we do to our children, was himself their caterer and carver, anticipated them with the blessings of goodness.

But they resisted and rebelled against God, they pulled away and were backsliden.

4. They were strongly inclined to apostasy. This is the blackest article in the charge (v. 7): My people are bent to backsliding from me. Every word here is aggravating. (1.) They backslide. There is no hold of them, no stedfastness in them; they seem to come forward, towards God, but they quickly slide back again, and are as a deceitful bow. (2.) They backslide from me, from God, the chief good, the fountain of life and living waters, from their God who never turned from them, nor war as a wilderness to them. (3.) They are bent to backslide; they are ready to sin; there is in their natures a propensity to that which is evil;

So, here is Matthew Henry, a professed Calvinist, saying that God was drawing the Jews to him, but they rebelled and resisted God and pulled away.

Now will you accept this from the word of God or not?

 

[Dr. Walter]

My dear fellow you are so confused because of your method of hermeneutics. You cannot spiritualize the fisherman passage to define the term "draw"!!!!!! If I applied that kind of hermeneutics I could make the Bible teach anything I wanted.

The indisputable fact is the Greek term translated "draw" NEVER refers to actions of the object being drawn. It never means to "entice" or "invite" NEVER! The fisherman could not "draw" the net in because they lacked the power rather than a lack of will. The net or fish getting away due to their lack of power or strenth of the net has nothing whatsoever to do with the meaning of the Greek term translated "draw." God lacks neither the will or the power when he draws as the last phrase of John 6:44 proves that "him" which God draws is the same "him" which is saved and "all" that God teaches is "everyone" that comes.

Futhermore, Hosaiah 11:4 does not use the same Greek term in the Septugint or Greek translation and the Hebrew term is not a synonym for the Greek term Jesus uses in John 6:44 or any other text where this term is found. The word "draw" represents several different Greek and Hebrew terms. You can't base the proper interpretation of a specific Greek term on the English term "draw" regardless of what Hebrew or Greek term it represents.

As long as you deal with Scripture the way you are doing it, nothing but confusion can result. In order to "rightly divide the scriptures" you must follow common sense rules of interpretation. You are not doing this and so anything and everything can be proven or disproven by the way you handle the scriptures.

You still have not responded to post #67. If you do respond to it, please use sane rules of interpretation.

Incorrect. Even the Lord loses some fish, and I will show you that from scripture itself if you will accept it.

Luke 5:6 And when they had this done, they inclosed a great multitude of fishes: and their net brake.

This is the story where Simon Peter and Andrew were fishing. They had toiled all night long and caught nothing. Christ tells them to launch out from shore and let down their nets. Peter tells the Lord they have already fished all night without any success, but he will obey Jesus's command. They caught so many fish that their net brake.

The scriptures do not tell us the net brake here without reason. Many fish got away. They were drawn, they were pulled just like the other fish, but when the net broke many escaped. Yes, a great number of fish were caught, but nevertheless a great many also escaped.

The passage I showed earlier in Hosea is also an example of people being drawn who resisted God.

Hos 11:4 I drew them with cords of a man, with bands of love: and I was to them as they that take off the yoke on their jaws, and I laid meat unto them.

Here the Lord says he drew the Jews with the cords of a man, with the bands of love. This is speaking of alluring, or enticing, or seducing. That is the meaning of "drawn" in John 6 and "draw" in John 12 as well.

But the Jews resisted God and backslid away, that is what Hosea is speaking about in this chapter.

Hos 11:7 And my people are bent to backsliding from me: though they called them to the most High, none at all would exalt him.

So, here is an example of men being drawn by God who resisted and pulled away from God.

Don't take my word for it, here is what Matthem Henry a Calvinist said of Hosea 11. I will only show portions as it is too much text.



But they resisted and rebelled against God, they pulled away and were backsliden.



So, here is Matthew Henry, a professed Calvinist, saying that God was drawing the Jews to him, but they rebelled and resisted God and pulled away.

Now will you accept this from the word of God or not?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Gents, winman hates calvinism or anythign that sounds like it. Been on my ignore list for some time now.

The meaning of the passage is plain. If GOd draws a man that man will come. Period. People can squirm about it all they want, but it is still the case.

I find it unbelieveable that people can actually believe that God would purpose to do something and then not be able to accomplish His purpose.

 

[Winman]

My dear fellow you are so confused because of your method of hermeneutics. You cannot spiritualize the fisherman passage to define the term "draw"!!!!!! If I applied that kind of hermeneutics I could make the Bible teach anything I wanted.

I am not spiritualizing anything. Jesus himself compared preaching the gospel to fishing.

Matt 4:19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.

Too bad you weren't there to correct Jesus.

Do you really believe this account to be about fishing? Jesus here is showing that we cannot do the work of God in our own power. Peter and Andrew had fished all night long without catching anything. When Jesus told them to launch out into the deep and let down their nets, the rational, earthly minded man would not believe any fish could be caught. But Jesus shows if we will just trust him and obey him, he will produce the results. The fish here represent men.

God does not use idle words. When it says the net brake, that is there for a reason. It shows that if we obey God he will produce results greater than we can imagine, but it also shows that not all men will accept the gospel. They will be attracted by it, they will be allured and enticed, but still some will resist and reject the gospel.

Then I showed where Matthew Henry himself (a Calvinist) shows that the word draw means to attract, allure, entice, or seduce and that the word used in Hosea 11 carries the same exact meaning as drawn and draw used in John 6 and John 12. And then he shows this passage clearly shows the Jews resisted and rebelled against God's drawing.

You are doing exactly what Hosea 11 is speaking about. You are resisting the truth to hold to your doctrine. I have never understood how Calvinists can believe this doctrine of Irresistable Grace when there is so much scripture that clearly contradicts it.

Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Jesus himself compared God to a mother hen who lovingly calls (actually it says gathereth which shows action on the part of the mother hen to pull these chicks under her wings) her children to hide under the protection of her wings, and says the Jews stubbornly refused to heed this drawing.

Luke 7:31 And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like?
32 They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept.

Here Jesus compares God to a person playing music to the Jews, inviting them to dance, but they refuse. He is calling them, he is drawing them, he is enticing them, but they will not listen.

So, you go right on holding your doctrine and ignoring numerous scriptures that contradicts it.

 

[jbh28]

Incorrect. Even the Lord loses some fish, and I will show you that from scripture itself if you will accept it.

Luke 5:6 And when they had this done, they inclosed a great multitude of fishes: and their net brake.

This is the story where Simon Peter and Andrew were fishing. They had toiled all night long and caught nothing. Christ tells them to launch out from shore and let down their nets. Peter tells the Lord they have already fished all night without any success, but he will obey Jesus's command. They caught so many fish that their net brake.

The scriptures do not tell us the net brake here without reason. Many fish got away. They were drawn, they were pulled just like the other fish, but when the net broke many escaped. Yes, a great number of fish were caught, but nevertheless a great many also escaped.

Were the fish in the net drawn to the net. Yes
Were the fish that escaped after the net broke drawn to the boat. No

Unless you are trying to prove that people can come to Christ and lose their salvation, I don't see any other point here. There are two things going on in this story. We have fish being drawn to the net. That's all the drawing of the fish where we have fish coming. Then the fish are draw(more like dragged in the net) up to the boat. The net breaks and the fish escaped. There were never drawn into the boat.

The passage I showed earlier in Hosea is also an example of people being drawn who resisted God.

Hos 11:4 I drew them with cords of a man, with bands of love: and I was to them as they that take off the yoke on their jaws, and I laid meat unto them.

Here the Lord says he drew the Jews with the cords of a man, with the bands of love. This is speaking of alluring, or enticing, or seducing. That is the meaning of "drawn" in John 6 and "draw" in John 12 as well.

How do you know this definition of "drawn"? Did you look it up, or just make up your own definition? Now I agree partially with you of how God does the drawing. He isn't dragging people to him against their will. But you are missing a major portion of the word draw. Draw means that they come. Just as your example with the fish, the fish were drawn into the net. They were not drawn into the boat, they never made it into the boat. There was more than one thing going on there, where as in Salvation, we are speaking of one. You could relate it to a person being drawn to church, but leaving and never being saved. He was drawn to church, but not to Christ as John 6 is speaking of.

But the Jews resisted God and backslid away, that is what Hosea is speaking about in this chapter.

Hos 11:7 And my people are bent to backsliding from me: though they called them to the most High, none at all would exalt him.

So, here is an example of men being drawn by God who resisted and pulled away from God.

You are taking a general use of the term draw misusing it. Were the Jews(general) being drawn? yes. Was every single Jew drawn? No. How do we know is because some resisted. Now if you say they were drawn and then left, are you implying that one can lose his salvation? Can a person come to Christ(by being drawn) and leave and no longer be saved?

Don't take my word for it, here is what Matthem Henry a Calvinist said of Hosea 11. I will only show portions as it is too much text.



But they resisted and rebelled against God, they pulled away and were backsliden.



So, here is Matthew Henry, a professed Calvinist, saying that God was drawing the Jews to him, but they rebelled and resisted God and pulled away.

Now will you accept this from the word of God or not?

So they came and left? Is that what you were saying.

Draw

to bring toward oneself or itself, as by inherent force or influence; attract: The concert drew a large audience.​

: to cause to go in a certain direction (as by leading) <drew him aside>
: to bring by inducement or allure : attract <honey draws flies> b : to bring in or gather from a specified group or area <a college that draws its students from many states> c : bring on, provoke <drew enemy fire> d : to bring out by way of response : elicit <drew cheers from the audience> e : to receive in the course of play <the batter drew a walk> <draw a foul>​

Draw always means that the action happened. A college is drawing its students from many states. Who are the ones that they drew? It was the ones that came. The ones that didn't come were not drawn.

 

[Winman]

Were the fish in the net drawn to the net. Yes
Were the fish that escaped after the net broke drawn to the boat. No

I don't know why I am responding to you. You will go to any ridiculous extreme to rationalize your position. Of course when the net broke the fish broke free and were no longer being drawn. That is about the same as saying the skydiver was no longer falling once he hit the ground. Does that mean he was never falling?

You are doing the very thing we are discussing here. You are seeing and hearing examples from scripture itself showing men can be drawn, but they can resist and pull away. That is the very topic Hosea 11 is discussing. I knew that already, but I showed you from Matthew Henry because I knew you would not take my word for it. And you will not accept his interpretation as well, and he was a Calvinist.

So, you are not interested in learning whatsoever. No matter how much evidence you are shown you will ignore it. You can't tell a person like this anything.

How do you know this definition of "drawn"?

I showed you from Matthew Henry himself. He said the word "drew" in Hosea 11 was the same as "drawn" in John 6. It means to be enticed, to be allured, to be seduced. It doesn't matter what I or anyone else shows you, you will not accept it because you want to hold to your doctrine.

Draw always means that the action happened. A college is drawing its students from many states. Who are the ones that they drew? It was the ones that came. The ones that didn't come were not drawn.

Here you sound like someone who belongs to a cult and has their own definition for words. Cults are famous for redefining words. This is from a website that has identified characteristics of cults.

Loading the language – Cults redefine common words and use glib thought-terminating catchphrases as an answer to questions.

Drawing doesn't always mean the person will come. I have seen posters for concerts before and became very interested in attending but at the last moment changed my mind. I have seen searchlights in the sky that are used to attract people to an event and became curious but declined to go to the source to find out what it was. I have had people practically attempt to drag me to do some things but resisted and would not go with them.

Believe what you want, I know you will.

 

[jbh28]

Here you sound like someone who belongs to a cult and has their own definition for words. Cults are famous for redefining words.

It's sad that you resort to this in your argument, but I have come to expect that from you now.

I gave you the dictionary definition of the word draw. You are the one that has changed the definition of the term to fit your theology. I'll give it again for you.

Draw

to bring toward oneself or itself, as by inherent force or influence; attract: The concert drew a large audience.

: to cause to go in a certain direction (as by leading) <drew him aside>
: to bring by inducement or allure : attract <honey draws flies> b : to bring in or gather from a specified group or area <a college that draws its students from many states> c : bring on, provoke <drew enemy fire> d : to bring out by way of response : elicit <drew cheers from the audience> e : to receive in the course of play <the batter drew a walk> <draw a foul>

I'm not changing the definition of the term, you are.

I don't know why I am responding to you. You will go to any ridiculous extreme to rationalize your position. Of course when the net broke the fish broke free and were no longer being drawn. That is about the same as saying the skydiver was no longer falling once he hit the ground. Does that mean he was never falling?

Did you read what I wrote?

Here it is again for you.

There are two things going on in this story. We have fish being drawn to the net. That's all the drawing of the fish where we have fish coming. Then the fish are draw(more like dragged in the net) up to the boat. The net breaks and the fish escaped. There were never drawn into the boat.

Again...
Were the fish in the net drawn to the net. Yes
Were the fish that escaped after the net broke drawn to the boat. No

You are doing the very thing we are discussing here. You are seeing and hearing examples from scripture itself showing men can be drawn, but they can resist and pull away. That is the very topic Hosea 11 is discussing. I knew that already, but I showed you from Matthew Henry because I knew you would not take my word for it. And you will not accept his interpretation as well, and he was a Calvinist.

All you are doing is repeating yourself and not responding to where I refuted this already. Hosea doesn't say a person was drawn to something and that same person didn't go to that same something.

So, you are not interested in learning whatsoever. No matter how much evidence you are shown you will ignore it. You can't tell a person like this anything.

All you have done is given your pontifications and no real evidence. You distort the evidence to support your view. I have given you the definition of the English word "draw" from English dictionaries, but you ignore them. Your examples don't say a person was drawn to something, but didn't go to that something.

I showed you from Matthew Henry himself. He said the word "drew" in Hosea 11 was the same as "drawn" in John 6. It means to be enticed, to be allured, to be seduced. It doesn't matter what I or anyone else shows you, you will not accept it because you want to hold to your doctrine.

Actually, it is two different words. Hosea is Hebrew and Matthew is Greek. However, I also showed you that the group was drawn in a general sense, but particular individuals were not drawn. They might have been drawn to a certain point, but not totally.

You say you don't know why you responded, well if you do it again, don't just repeat yourself. Respond to what I have posted.

Drawing doesn't always mean the person will come. I have seen searchlights in the sky that are used to attract people to an event and became curious but declined to go to the source to find out what it was. I have had people practically attempt to drag me to do some things but resisted and would not go with them.

Believe what you want, I know you will.

Drawing does always means the person comes. I have given you the dictionary definition of the term.

I have seen posters for concerts before and became very interested in attending but at the last moment changed my mind.

Then you were not drawn to the concert. You didn't go. The concert drew a large crowd. You were not part of the crowd and were not drawn.

I have seen searchlights in the sky that are used to attract people to an event and became curious but declined to go to the source to find out what it was. I have had people practically attempt to drag me to do some things but resisted and would not go with them.

key word, attempted to drag you there. You were not drawn there.

Draw

American Heritage
to bring toward oneself or itself, as by inherent force or influence; attract: The concert drew a large audience.

Webster
: to cause to go in a certain direction (as by leading) <drew him aside>
: to bring by inducement or allure : attract <honey draws flies> b : to bring in or gather from a specified group or area <a college that draws its students from many states> c : bring on, provoke <drew enemy fire> d : to bring out by way of response : elicit <drew cheers from the audience> e : to receive in the course of play <the batter drew a walk> <draw a foul>

 

[Cypress]

jbh
Some of the definitions you supply indicate that draw causes one to move towards something,but that doesn't logically necessitate that the drawing will bring one all the way to an objective. Many things can be drawn part way. Not implying for my part that God is incapable of accomplishing His purpose whatever that may be. In your OP, do you define drawing to mean that whatever is drawn is drawn to the complete terminus of the drawers intention? If so , why?

 

[jbh28]

jbh
Some of the definitions you supply indicate that draw causes one to move towards something,but that doesn't logically necessitate that the drawing will bring one all the way to an objective. Many things can be drawn part way. Not implying for my part that God is incapable of accomplishing His purpose whatever that may be. In your OP, do you define drawing to mean that whatever is drawn is drawn to the complete terminus of the drawers intention? If so , why?

Thanks for your good question. It depends on how you look at it. If you are referring to the process I can understand your point. You are drawing somebody, they are coming. If they stop part way, you are no longer drawing them as they are no longer coming.

In John 6, is the "draws" there a process where a person could be being drawn, but stops? It doesn't seem to fit into the context of the passage there.

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.”


It says that "no one can come to me." "To me" is where Jesus says we cannot come unless Jesus draws him "to me." In other words, no man can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him to Jesus. What happens when a person is drawn to Jesus? He is there. If you think of it as a process (the person being drawn) if he stops, he hasn't been drawn to Jesus. Like the example of the event. The event draws a big crowd. There might have been people that were going to go, but decided to eat at Zaxby's instead. (I'm hungry ). You could say they were being drawn(process) but where not drawn to the event. "We drew a big crowd" only refers to the ones that actually came. Not the ones that almost came or didn't come at all. That is why I believe it is referring to a complete drawing here. I don't see anything that supports that there is an incomplete drawing here.

Of course, this one passage doesn't prove a doctrine, there is much more to look at.

 

[psalms109:31]

Meek and Humble

I love my brother calvinist and agree with them so much, but they have so much more to learn as do us all. I have no problem with the word draw, but if we live on one verse and try to make the whole bible under that one law then that is where we fall short. A lot of false religion is started by one verse. We must live on every word that comes from God. I have no problem that those who are drawn to Jesus, but the real question is who.

God said He will keep the meek and humble who trust in the Lord if you are not that then you are not the elect. It surely isn't the wise and learned who lean on thier own understanding who are drawned. When we see through a veil and only see one thing that is all we see and look for and we will change everything to meet that. That is why the truth is hidden from the wise and learned.

To be drawned to come to Jesus by the Father we must humble ourselves and listen and learn from the Father. Following a crowd and their belief system is not being drawned by the Father. Elected isn't the answer many have been cut out for unbelief and yet can be grafted back in by just not continuing in thier unbelief.

 

[Winman]

if he stops, he hasn't been drawn to Jesus.

This is where you are wrong. Many people come close to trusting in Christ but pull away. I witnessed to a family member many years ago and he came to the point where he said, "I almost believe". But I could not persuade him to commit to Christ. Today if I bring up Christ around him he will fly into a rage, I am afraid he is hardened against the gospel.

And we see this with Agrippa as well in Acts, he told Paul that he was almost "persuaded" to be a Christian

Acts 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

And this word persuaded is what drawn means. It means to induce, to be entreated, to allure, to convince. Paul said we persuade men, they were not forced to believe.

A person can be almost convinced to come to Christ but not make that commitment. Any preacher who has gone soul winning will tell you this is true.

You can draw a fish right to the boat but he can break the line or jump off the hook. You can't pretend the fish was never drawn simply because he got away. And this was the case of the fish in Luke, many were captured in the net and drawn in, but when the net broke many got away.

 

[Rippon]

My dear fellow you are so confused because of your method of hermeneutics. You cannot spiritualize the fisherman passage to define the term "draw"!!!!!! If I applied that kind of hermeneutics I could make the Bible teach anything I wanted.

The indisputable fact is the Greek term translated "draw" NEVER refers to actions of the object being drawn. It never means to "entice" or "invite" NEVER! The fisherman could not "draw" the net in because they lacked the power rather than a lack of will. The net or fish getting away due to their lack of power or strenth of the net has nothing whatsoever to do with the meaning of the Greek term translated "draw." God lacks neither the will or the power when he draws as the last phrase of John 6:44 proves that "him" which God draws is the same "him" which is saved and "all" that God teaches is "everyone" that comes.

Futhermore, Hosea 11:4 does not use the same Greek term in the Septugint or Greek translation and the Hebrew term is not a synonym for the Greek term Jesus uses in John 6:44 or any other text where this term is found. The word "draw" represents several different Greek and Hebrew terms. You can't base the proper interpretation of a specific Greek term on the English term "draw" regardless of what Hebrew or Greek term it represents.

As long as you deal with Scripture the way you are doing it, nothing but confusion can result. In order to "rightly divide the scriptures" you must follow common sense rules of interpretation. You are not doing this and so anything and everything can be proven or disproven by the way you handle the scriptures.

... please use sane rules of interpretation.

I think this post from Dr.Walter needs to be repeated for Winman's sake.