Drawing and John 6

[jbh28]

Dear JBH,

You see this the same way I do, my precious Brother!! Without "election", there would be no one saved. Whenever God "draws" someone, that's "election" in a nutshell. The "elect" are those that choose to serve Him. I know my doctrines of grace Brethren will not agree with me, but that's okay. God draws, and man can either come willingly, or reject Him. Take care!!

Willis

That's not quite what I was saying. I do agree with you that without election, no one would be saved. This is because man naturally doesn't want to come to Christ. Man naturally doesn't want to repent. The "elect" are those that God chose before the foundation of the world. "Elect" means to have been chosen. You become an elect when you have been chosen. All that come are the ones that are drawn. All that are drawn, come. Draw means "to cause to come by attracting." The terms draw and come are two sides of the same coin. We come, God draws. They both must happen, or neither has happened. My point was in the quote was that man isn't being dragged to God against his will. God has changed his heart. God has made him willing to come to Christ.

When I say whosoever, that is because the Bible says that whosoever believes will be saved. You don't tell the lost person that they only can be saved if God chose them. You tell them that if they want to be saved, they can be saved. This is because unless God changes them, they will never want to be saved. If God draws a person(to cause to come by attracting) that means that person has come.

Also, the passage says that all that are drawn will be raised up in the last day. My point in the definition of "draw" is that some try to say that the person drawn and the person that comes are different. But that isn't what the definitions of the terms mean and it isn't what Scripture says. Scriptures says "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

I said I wasn't reformed because I don't believe everything that you have to believe as I understand reformed theology. But I do agree with them on election as long as they believe that people are chosen to heaven not hell. Man is naturally on his way to hell. There is no need to elect to hell. Leave man alone, he will always choose against God.

 

[Skandelon]

I think the whole discussion about the scope of the word "all" is a distraction from the real issue of this debate. I'm fine with the understanding that John 12:32 means that God will draw all from both Jews and Gentiles because it goes to prove my point...a point that has yet to be addressed in this thread.

The POINT is that the GOSPEL, which IS the POWER of GOD UNTO SALVATION, is clearly being hidden from Israel as they are being BLINDED (i.e. Mark 4; Matt. 13; Rom. 11; John 12:39-41 etc). The GOSPEL has not yet even been sent to the rest of the world as that doesn't happen UNTIL AFTER Peter has his dream and Paul is called to be the apostle to the Gentiles.

Now, why is that an important point in a debate about the ability or inability for men to be SAVED? Do I really need to explain?

If the GOSPEL, the VERY POWER of SALVATION, is being purposefully withheld by God and hidden from people, and even those who do see it are being temporarily judicially blinded from understanding it so as to prevent them from repenting, don't you all think that might be an important POINT in this discussion?????

Suppose it IS the gospel that draws men to salvation for a minute. Now, doesn't it reason that if the gospel is being veiled from Israel and has not yet been sent to the rest of the world that might be why NNE can come UNTIL God draws them by sending the gospel to them?

The apostles WERE uniquely chosen and effectually drawn to be the divinely appointed messengers to the world and YES they will certainly be saved, but you can say the same thing about Jonah. He was individually selected and effectually called to be a messenger of God, but does that somehow prove that those who believed his message in Nineveh were likewise chosen and effectually called to believe? Of course not.

 

[Winman]

Dear JBH,

You see this the same way I do, my precious Brother!! Without "election", there would be no one saved. Whenever God "draws" someone, that's "election" in a nutshell. The "elect" are those that choose to serve Him. I know my doctrines of grace Brethren will not agree with me, but that's okay. God draws, and man can either come willingly, or reject Him. Take care!!

Willis

When I say whosoever, that is because the Bible says that whosoever believes will be saved. You don't tell the lost person that they only can be saved if God chose them. You tell them that if they want to be saved, they can be saved. This is because unless God changes them, they will never want to be saved. If God draws a person(to cause to come by attracting) that means that person has come.

Also, the passage says that all that are drawn will be raised up in the last day. My point in the definition of "draw" is that some try to say that the person drawn and the person that comes are different. But that isn't what the definitions of the terms mean and it isn't what Scripture says. Scriptures says "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Well, Charles Spurgeon (and I) disagree with both of you. John 12:32 clearly says all men are drawn, not just some. And Spurgeon in his sermon the Marvellous Magnet #1717 agrees with this. He also clearly says that not all who that are drawn come. I will quote a portion of his sermon, but you can easily look up the rest if you desire.

The text says that Jesus Christ will draw all men unto himself. Now, all men who hear of Jesus Christ at all are drawn, but they do not all yield. Some of them pull back, and the most awful thing that ever happens to a man is when he pulls back till Jesus lets him go. What a fall is that, when the drawing power is taken away, and the man fails backward into a destruction which he himself has chosen, having refused eternal life, and resisted the Savior's power! Unhappy is the wretch who strives against his own salvation. Every man that hears the gospel feels some measure of its drawing power. I appeal to any one of you who has been accustomed to hear it. Does not Jesus sometimes tug hard at your conscience-strings, and, though you have pulled back, yet has he not drawn and drawn again? I remember how he drew me as a child, and, though I drew back from him, yet did he never let me go till he drew me over the border line. Some of you must well remember how you were drawn by a mother's gentle words, by a teacher's earnest pleadings, by a father's admonitions-by a sister's tears, by a pastor's entreaties. Permit your memories to aid me. Bring up before your mind's eye the many dear ones who have broken their hearts to win you for Jesus. Yes, you have been drawn. I suppose that all of you have felt a measure of that drawing.

I do not always agree with Spurgeon, but I agree with him here. He says that all men who hear the gospel are drawn, but not all that are drawn come.

So, Spurgeon may have declared himself a Calvinist (which he did), but he did not believe only certain persons were drawn to Christ and others were not, he believed every man who hears the gospel is drawn. And he did not believe this drawing irresistable, he believed a man could resist the drawing of Jesus, and at a certain point Jesus would cease to draw that man any more. I agree with all of this, this is scriptural.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Well, Charles Spurgeon (and I) disagree with both of you. John 12:32 clearly says all men are drawn, not just some. And Spurgeon in his sermon the Marvellous Magnet #1717 agrees with this. He also clearly says that not all who that are drawn come. I will quote a portion of his sermon, but you can easily look up the rest if you desire.



I do not always agree with Spurgeon, but I agree with him here. He says that all men who hear the gospel are drawn, but not all that are drawn come.

So, Spurgeon may have declared himself a Calvinist (which he did), but he did not believe only certain persons were drawn to Christ and others were not, he believed every man who hears the gospel is drawn. And he did not believe this drawing irresistable, he believed a man could resist the drawing of Jesus, and at a certain point Jesus would cease to draw that man any more. I agree with all of this, this is scriptural.

Spurgeon does not agree with you at all in this message or any other message he preached on this subject.

First, he does not believe the words "all men" apply to 100% of mankind but to only those who hear the gospel. Second, he is speaking of the call inclusive of both the effectual and general. In other sermons he makes this very clear that the call of the gospel comes in two different ways:


"For a minute, I beg you to observe the difference between the Lord's effectual call, and those common calls which so many receive." - The Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, Vol. XIV, "Effectual Calling" - pp. 661-672

If you would give the address of this particular quote I believe the readers will find the same distinctions made in that very sermon.

 

[Winman]

Spurgeon does not agree with you at all in this message or any other message he preached on this subject.

First, he does not believe the words "all men" apply to 100% of mankind but to only those who hear the gospel. Second, he is speaking of the call inclusive of both the effectual and general. In other sermons he makes this very clear that the call of the gospel comes in two different ways:


"For a minute, I beg you to observe the difference between the Lord's effectual call, and those common calls which so many receive." - The Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, Vol. XIV, "Effectual Calling" - pp. 661-672

If you would give the address of this particular quote I believe the readers will find the same distinctions made in that very sermon.

The truth is, Spurgeon was very inconsistent. He clearly declared himself to be a Calvinist, but he often contradicted it in his actual preaching, the sermon I quoted is one of very many examples I could show you. In my opinion, Spurgeon was not very comfortable with Calvinism, in another sermon he said he always felt a great anxiety when inviting men to Christ, as he felt he could not freely do so if his own doctrine were true. But he invited all men anyway. I have showed that quote in another thread sometime back.

The point I was trying to make is that Spurgeon did not believe this drawing was irresistable, he said some men resist it and pull or draw back until Jesus lets them go. I agree with this, this is what Romans 1 speaks of several times.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


This verse is speaking of unregenerate, unsaved men, because it says they hold the truth in unrighteousness. But it also clearly shows the truth is revealed to them. In fact, it plainly states that God has showed it to them in verse 19, and says they are without excuse in verse 20.

But these men resisted God to a point where he "gave them up"

Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Calvinism teaches that God simply passes by the unelect. But the scriptures clearly show that God reveals truth to them and strives with them. But at some point which only God knows, if a man continues to resist the calling and drawing of the Holy Spirit God gives them up or gives them over to a reprobate mind.

Why would God have to give up on someone he was not drawing in the first place? And how can a man resist the Holy Ghost if the Holy Ghost is not drawing them?

So, Spurgeon was hardly the poster boy for Calvinism and often preached contradictory against it as this sermon I showed. Spurgeon got it right in this sermon.

 

[Dr. Walter]

No, he was not inconsistent at all on this subject anywhere he writes. You simply do not understand Spurgeon's theology. He never contradicted Himself on this subject but held to a proper balance.

For example when I preach the gospel I call all sinners to come to Christ and tell them that salvation is there for all who are willing to repent and believe the gospel. Whosoever will may come and drink of the water of life freely.

The preacher is not responsible for distinguishing the effectual versus the general call by his preaching as that is none of his business and outside his power. The sinner listening to the gospel is not responsible for distinguishing the effectual versus the general call as that is none of his business and outside of his power.

We preach the gospel to all men without exception or distinction but yet know theologically that those who do come willingly are trophies of God's grace and their coming is evidence that the gospel did not come to them "in word only" but in power and in the Holy Spirit whereas those who do not come and repent were left to their own free choice.

What I have outlined in my own preaching method is exactly how Spurgeon preached and in his theological treatise he clearly and explicitly points out the very same thing that I have.

There is no inconsistency with Spurgeon's preaching or his theology as there is no inconsistent thinking between my preaching and my theology. In our preaching we are not the cause and therefore do not preach like we are the cause of the effectual call. In our theology we distinguish between the effectual call as clearly taught many times in God's word in contrast to the general call (I Cor. 1:26-31; Rom. 8:28-32; 1 Thes. 1:4-5; 2 Thes. 2:13-14; etc.).

The truth is that you do not understand Spurgeon and so you attribute to him inconsistency with himself when the problem is not him but in your interpretation of him and the scriptures.

The truth is, Spurgeon was very inconsistent. He clearly declared himself to be a Calvinist, but he often contradicted it in his actual preaching, the sermon I quoted is one of very many examples I could show you. In my opinion, Spurgeon was not very comfortable with Calvinism, in another sermon he said he always felt a great anxiety when inviting men to Christ, as he felt he could not freely do so if his own doctrine were true. But he invited all men anyway. I have showed that quote in another thread sometime back.

The point I was trying to make is that Spurgeon did not believe this drawing was irresistable, he said some men resist it and pull or draw back until Jesus lets them go. I agree with this, this is what Romans 1 speaks of several times.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


This verse is speaking of unregenerate, unsaved men, because it says they hold the truth in unrighteousness. But it also clearly shows the truth is revealed to them. In fact, it plainly states that God has showed it to them in verse 19, and says they are without excuse in verse 20.

But these men resisted God to a point where he "gave them up"

Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Calvinism teaches that God simply passes by the unelect. But the scriptures clearly show that God reveals truth to them and strives with them. But at some point which only God knows, if a man continues to resist the calling and drawing of the Holy Spirit God gives them up or gives them over to a reprobate mind.

Why would God have to give up on someone he was not drawing in the first place? And how can a man resist the Holy Ghost if the Holy Ghost is not drawing them?

So, Spurgeon was hardly the poster boy for Calvinism and often preached contradictory against it as this sermon I showed. Spurgeon got it right in this sermon.

 

[Dr. Walter]

The point I was trying to make is that Spurgeon did not believe this drawing was irresistable, he said some men resist it and pull or draw back until Jesus lets them go. I agree with this, this is what Romans 1 speaks of several times.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


This verse is speaking of unregenerate, unsaved men, because it says they hold the truth in unrighteousness. But it also clearly shows the truth is revealed to them. In fact, it plainly states that God has showed it to them in verse 19, and says they are without excuse in verse 20.

But these men resisted God to a point where he "gave them up"

Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Calvinism teaches that God simply passes by the unelect. But the scriptures clearly show that God reveals truth to them and strives with them. But at some point which only God knows, if a man continues to resist the calling and drawing of the Holy Spirit God gives them up or gives them over to a reprobate mind.

Why would God have to give up on someone he was not drawing in the first place? And how can a man resist the Holy Ghost if the Holy Ghost is not drawing them?

So, Spurgeon was hardly the poster boy for Calvinism and often preached contradictory against it as this sermon I showed. Spurgeon got it right in this sermon.

If you want to understand what point Paul is making here then read his summary conclusion in Romans 3:9-11. He tells you bluntly in Romans 3:9 what he had been trying to prove. He had not been trying to prove that all men have ability to seek God and are able to do righteousness but the very opposite. He is trying to demonstrate why NO UNREGENERATE HUMAN BEING will ever seek God regardless of the light God gives them in - the light of conscience, light of nature, light of God's written revelation, light of the gospel apart from regeneration by God.

In the immediate context of Romans 1:18-21 he also tells you the immediate point he is trying to prove - "therefore they are without excuse" (v. 21). He is trying to demonstrate none seek after God because of their sinful nature. Their constant and consistent response to all light demonstrates this and at the same time makes them more responsible and accountable.

As they progress in their resistance and rejection of whatever light they are confronted with they are being hardened by that very process of rejection and resistance and that is how God "gives them over" to a worse state.

Christ's own words make a perfect commentary on Romans 1:18-3:20 when he says:

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

How many that doeth evil hate the light? How many that doeth evil come to the light? How many love darkness RATHER THAN light? Paul simply expounds on this truth in Romans 1:18-3:20. No matter what kind of light you give sinners they will always resist and reject and never come to that light.

The light of conscience is a GENERAL CALL to come. The light in nature is a general call to come. In Romans 2 Paul proves that Jewish sinners who have the Word of God respond the exact same way. The Word of God is a general call to come. Those who hear the gospel react the very same way whenever the gospel comes in "word only." So what would Paul being trying to prove by this continued consistent response to ALL GENERAL CALLS given by God in conscience, in nature, in the Word of God, in the gospel? He is trying to prove that the human nature will NEVER respond to any light provided by God outside of God changing that nature:

What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

 

[Winman]

No, he was not inconsistent at all on this subject anywhere he writes. You simply do not understand Spurgeon's theology. He never contradicted Himself on this subject but held to a proper balance.

For example when I preach the gospel I call all sinners to come to Christ and tell them that salvation is there for all who are willing to repent and believe the gospel. Whosoever will may come and drink of the water of life freely.

Say whatever you want, I just showed you where Spurgeon said a man can resist the drawing of Jesus to the point where Jesus lets the man go and stops drawing the man.

And your invitation is a play on words. It is circular reasoning. It is whosoever is willing is willing. You do not really mean whosoever when you say that word, you mean only a few elect persons. And when you say willing you mean those who have been made willing against their wills, because you teach that the natural man is always unwilling.

You know what I am saying, and you know it is true.

 

[jbh28]

Say whatever you want, I just showed you where Spurgeon said a man can resist the drawing of Jesus to the point where Jesus lets the man go and stops drawing the man.

I forgot Spurgeon > Scipture... You might want to re-read what Spurgeon said. And there is a differences in the "drawing of Jesus" and being drawn to Jesus. Basic English.

And your invitation is a play on words. It is circular reasoning. It is whosoever is willing is willing.

That isn't circular. It is just a statement. A circular argument is proving your conclusion by using your conclusion as your premise. There is no argument here saying that whosoever is willing is willing. Just an obvious statement. The question is why are they willing. If you said they are willing because they are willing, that would be circular, but that isn't what was said here. We say they are willing because God makes them willing.

You do not really mean whosoever when you say that word, you mean only a few elect persons.

No, we mean anybody. Anybody that calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. To not believe this is to say that some would call on the name of the Lord and NOT be saved. We don't believe that.

And when you say willing you mean those who have been made willing against their wills, because you teach that the natural man is always unwilling.

Actually, the Bible teaches that the natural man is always unwilling. God changes our hearts and makes us willing.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Say whatever you want, I just showed you where Spurgeon said a man can resist the drawing of Jesus to the point where Jesus lets the man go and stops drawing the man.

And your invitation is a play on words. It is circular reasoning. It is whosoever is willing is willing. You do not really mean whosoever when you say that word, you mean only a few elect persons. And when you say willing you mean those who have been made willing against their wills, because you teach that the natural man is always unwilling.

You know what I am saying, and you know it is true.

No, you showed us how to jerk statements out of Spurgeon's sermons and make them fit your theology. You did not accurately represent what Spurgeon meant.

Please gives us the address from where you jerked this statement out of its context and I will guarantee you that the overall context of his sermon repudiates what you are trying to make Spurgeon say. Give us the address.

 

[Winman]

No, you showed us how to jerk statements out of Spurgeon's sermons and make them fit your theology. You did not accurately represent what Spurgeon meant.

Please gives us the address from where you jerked this statement out of its context and I will guarantee you that the overall context of his sermon repudiates what you are trying to make Spurgeon say. Give us the address.

I told you the name and number of the sermon, The Marvellous Magnet #1717 in my first post on this sermon. Do a search.

I am not trying to make Spurgeon say anything. I simply copied and pasted what he said. He said some men resist the drawing of Christ, he even said he resisted the drawing of Christ for awhile.

 

[jbh28]

I told you the name and number of the sermon, The Marvellous Magnet #1717 in my first post on this sermon. Do a search.

I am not trying to make Spurgeon say anything. I simply copied and pasted what he said. He said some men resist the drawing of Christ, he even said he resisted the drawing of Christ for awhile.

I personally have no problem with the statement you just made. People can resist the drawing of Christ.

Here is a link to the sermon. pdf format
http://www.cerassociates.com/writingskills/ws2/The Marvelous Magnet.pdf

 

[Winman]

I personally have no problem with the statement you just made. People can resist the drawing of Christ.

Here is a link to the sermon. pdf format
http://www.cerassociates.com/writingskills/ws2/The Marvelous Magnet.pdf

You do not agree with Spurgeon, and you do not agree with me. You believe every single person who is drawn will come, but Spurgeon said some men resist the drawing of Christ to the point where Jesus lets them go and quits drawing them.

The text says that Jesus Christ will draw all men unto himself. Now, all men who hear of Jesus Christ at all are drawn, but they do not all yield. Some of them pull back, and the most awful thing that ever happens to a man is when he pulls back till Jesus lets him go. What a fall is that, when the drawing power is taken away, and the man fails backward into a destruction which he himself has chosen, having refused eternal life, and resisted the Savior's power! Unhappy is the wretch who strives against his own salvation. Every man that hears the gospel feels some measure of its drawing power.

Spurgeon said some men pull back and resist until the drawing power is taken away and the man falls backward into a destruction which he himself has chosen. He says these men have resisted the Savior's "power".

If Jesus's drawing is power, then it is not the general call.

This is not what you believe at all.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I told you the name and number of the sermon, The Marvellous Magnet #1717 in my first post on this sermon. Do a search.

I am not trying to make Spurgeon say anything. I simply copied and pasted what he said. He said some men resist the drawing of Christ, he even said he resisted the drawing of Christ for awhile.

But all men are not saved. No, for when drawn they do not come. Yet Christ Crucified is drawing some men of all kinds and sorts to eternal life.

The Crucified Christ has irresistible attractions—when He stoops into the utmost suffering and scorn, even the brutal
must relent—a living Savior men may love, but a crucified Savior they must love! If they perceive that He loved them
and gave Himself for them, their hearts are stolen away—the city of Mansoul is captured before the siege begins when the
Prince Emanuel uncovers the beauties of His dying love before the eyes of the rebellious ones!

I gather another lesson—that men will not come to Christ unless He draws them. Sometimes, when I am trying to
prepare a sermon to preach, I say to myself, “Why must I take all this trouble?” If men were in their senses they would
run to Christ without calling! Why must we put this business so temptingly? Why must we plead? Why must we be so
earnest? Because men do not want to come, not even to their own Savior! They do not wish to have their sins forgiven!
They do not wish to be renewed in heart. And they never will come—no, not one mother’s son of them—unless He that
sent Christ to them shall draw them to Christ. A work of Grace in the heart is absolutely necessary before the Sacrifice of
the Lord Jesus will be accepted by any one of us. Jesus said, “You will not come to Me that you might have life.” What
our Lord said is true to this hour—man has not improved an atom!

I read the sermon and Spurgeon's point is that in the general call of the gospel there is an attractive force to all who hear it and all men hearing it are drawn to a certain extent but none come by the mere attractive force of the gospel. All who are drawn in this sense only never come. God must draw them in another effectual sense that begins by producing a work of grace in their hearts and all of these do effectually come.

 

[Winman]

Well, you see how inconsistent Spurgeon could be. In the first paragraph his says not all who are drawn come. And then in the next paragraph he says it is irresistable. Well, he can't have it both ways, but that is what he was trying to do. If men can pull back and resist the power of Christ's drawing to the point where Jesus let's them go, then it is not irresisitable.

This is the problem with Calvinism, an honest person will see much scripture that contradicts it. Calvinists jump through all sorts of hoops and do mental gymnastics to try to twist scripture to fit their doctrine, but it is impossible. This is a good example of that.

If Jesus's drawing power is irresistable, then no man can resist to the point where Jesus lets them go and fall into destruction as Spurgeon said. Spurgeon contradicts himself several times in this sermon.

But he got that part about drawing correct. Jesus does draw all men, but some fight and resist to the point where Jesus lets them go.

 

[jbh28]

You do not agree with Spurgeon, and you do not agree with me. You believe every single person who is drawn will come, but Spurgeon said some men resist the drawing of Christ to the point where Jesus lets them go and quits drawing them.

Read your statement here. You said I "believe every single person who is drawn will come." I believe that every single person that is drawn to Christ will come to Christ. Why is this. Well first, the simple definition of the term draw. It means to cause to come by attracting. You can be drawn to a point(which means you came to a point) but not drawn all the way. But to be drawn to Christ means you came to Christ. Simple definition of the term. Go look it up in a dictionary if you don't believe me. Secondly, John 6 says that "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." No man can come unless the Father draws him, and I will draws him up. Same person. drawn and raised up in the last day. So both the simple English definition of the term draw supports my view as well as the Scriptures themselves.

Spurgeon said some men pull back and resist until the drawing power is taken away and the man falls backward into a destruction which he himself has chosen. He says these men have resisted the Savior's "power".

If Jesus's drawing is power, then it is not the general call.

This is not what you believe at all.

There is a difference in the general call to everyone, and the effectual drawing of Christ of his elect. Notice again your change of the word. Draw and drawing are not the same. I draw a fish to me.(The fish came to the boat). I am drawing a fish to me(the fish is on its way to me. It may or may not be drawn all the way to me.)

 

[jbh28]

Well, you see how inconsistent Spurgeon could be. In the first paragraph his says not all who are drawn come. And then in the next paragraph he says it is irresistable. Well, he can't have it both ways, but that is what he was trying to do. If men can pull back and resist the power of Christ's drawing to the point where Jesus let's them go, then it is not irresisitable.

This is the problem with Calvinism, an honest person will see much scripture that contradicts it. Calvinists jump through all sorts of hoops and do mental gymnastics to try to twist scripture to fit their doctrine, but it is impossible. This is a good example of that.

If Jesus's drawing power is irresistable, then no man can resist to the point where Jesus lets them go and fall into destruction as Spurgeon said. Spurgeon contradicts himself several times in this sermon.

But he got that part about drawing correct. Jesus does draw all men, but some fight and resist to the point where Jesus lets them go.

Could you give me your definition of irresistible and another common example of how you would use it. I have seen many different definitions of the term and want to make sure I don't misrepresent you. Thanks!

 

[Winman]

Here is another famous passage that shows two possibilities.

#1 Men can resist the drawing power of God, or

#2 Men can lose their salvation.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

I am not an Arminian, but this is probably their strongest argument to prove a person can lose their salvation. I do not believe that, I believe that once a person is saved, they are always saved. But I believe in the preservation of the saints, not perserverance as Calvinism teaches. There is a huge difference between preservation and perserverance.

But here you have people who have been enlightened by the Spirit. It says they have tasted of the heavenly gift, and made partakers of the Holy Ghost. It says they have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the world to come.

But in verse 6 it says if they fall away that it is impossible to renew them to repentance. So, they must have repented or brought very close to repenting.

So, Arminians will say that a man can quit believing in Jesus and fall away and lose their salvation. I do not believe that is what this passage is saying.

I believe it is speaking of an unregenerate man who has been taught by the Spirit. He has been enlightened. He understands he is a sinner and the wages of sin is death. And he understands that Jesus died for his sins and that all he needs to do is trust Christ to be saved.

But this man turns away, primarily because of the deceitfulness of sin. This could be exactly what happened to the young rich ruler (I hope not). He understood Jesus was the Christ, and he understood he needed to trust Jesus. But he could not bring himself to give up the prestige, comfort, and power of his great riches to wait for a future promise of greater riches in heaven.

And I believe at this point a man becomes hardened. He has refused the gospel. Never again will the gospel have such drawing power upon his soul. From this point on, when he hears the gospel he will be more hardened against it.

Now, this passage has been one of the greatest controversies in all of scripture for centuries, but I personally believe it is speaking of a man who has been drawn and taught by the Spirit to trust in Christ, but turns away in rebellion.

Acts 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

Agrippa understood the gospel he heard from Paul, and was almost brought to the point of trusting in Christ, but apparently pulled away.

 

[jbh28]

Here is another famous passage that shows two possibilities.

#1 Men can resist the drawing power of God, or

#2 Men can lose their salvation.

First of all, I would much rather be in agreement on eternal security than unconditional election. There are however other possibilities than just the two you gave. You can have this group to be saved but not be losing their salvation, something which is the view I currently hold.

Also, you said "There is a huge difference between preservation and perseverance." I was curious as to what this difference is. Instead of changing the subject here, I'll make another thread on it.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Well, you see how inconsistent Spurgeon could be. In the first paragraph his says not all who are drawn come. And then in the next paragraph he says it is irresistable. Well, he can't have it both ways, but that is what he was trying to do. If men can pull back and resist the power of Christ's drawing to the point where Jesus let's them go, then it is not irresisitable.

This is the problem with Calvinism, an honest person will see much scripture that contradicts it. Calvinists jump through all sorts of hoops and do mental gymnastics to try to twist scripture to fit their doctrine, but it is impossible. This is a good example of that.

If Jesus's drawing power is irresistable, then no man can resist to the point where Jesus lets them go and fall into destruction as Spurgeon said. Spurgeon contradicts himself several times in this sermon.

But he got that part about drawing correct. Jesus does draw all men, but some fight and resist to the point where Jesus lets them go.

C.H. Spurgeon was a brilliant expositor of scripture and for you to suggest that in this very same sermon, which was not published until after Spurgeon reveiwed and edited it, that Spurgeon was confused and inconsistent is absurd, especially when the very same balance is presented in other sermons by Him dealing with this same text.

The truth is that you will not admit what other sermons by Spurgeon on this same subject spell out clearly and that is he believed the Scriptures taught a general and effectual call and they were not the same. So all who hear the gospel can be called to salvation in a general sense and there is a power of attraction in the gospel. However, just as Jesus said that no man cometh to the light because he loves darkness RATHER THAN light. Any man that does come, is proof that his coming and obeying has been "wrought in God" (Jn. 3:21). This is precisely why Jesus began with the necessity of the new birth (Jn 3:1-9) BEFORE preaching the gospel to this Jewish THEOLOGION (Jn. 3:15-16) and concluded by denying any sinner would come to Christ without God doing a supernatural work first to them (Jn. 3:18-21).

You will continue to accuse others of being confused simply because you do not understand the A,B,C's of salvation.