Drawn by the Spirit

If you'd have read my whole post you would have an answer, the question is really simple.

There is but one possible answer to that question

I don't ever want to hear you accuse me of being 'man-centered'again. What you just posted with this comment is not of God. It is not you that does the saving? You are only required to do the telling of the Gospel. The rest is entirely between the hearer of the word and God. Nothing you can do about the outcome.

Then you need a checkup from the neckup. Your belief is faulty because you are believing something that is not true! If you are teaching what you believe then you are a false teacher! And by your own admission, you accuse yourself of being a false teacher.

 

Wes

There are more out than in so the saying goes. I was at the nut house yesterday as two of my friends have been admitted. They let me out but next time I go I shall see what I can do for you. I am fascinated to find out what those drugs do to one. My friends look as if they have been struck with a rubber mallet. They are both Calvinists.HaHa!
What are you doing Wes wasting your time on the converted? You say all that is required of us is to believe in God. As far as Calvinists go they cannot be said to not believe. You may think our doctrine is false but we believe in God. Your universal atonement deals with our sin. Our falling short of the truth. You spend yourself in trying to change our doctrine not get us to believe in God. That we do already and so are safe.
You Arminians are not safe though if we are right. You it is that is man centered. Your faith is your saviour and that is your problem.

johnp.

 

No problem, john p...I battling a Flu bug right now so it may be a few days before I respond also.

 

Hi JohnP;

What can I say John maybe you shouldn't preach the gospel. We don't want you to lie,and most of all we don't want you to claim that Christ commanded you to lie

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.


Now this verse above says every creature but then you have your excuse not to tell anyone about Christ. Aren't you lucky

Well you know since we can't tell if one is trully elected then we should just keep our mouths shut and wait for the rocks to cry out.

You said in relation to Thomas Boston;

Speaking of running off those rails is an admission that they were at least on them. How ever seeing your views on evanglism lets all know you've never even seen the track. Your excuse is in direct conflict with the truth of scripture.
How in the world are you ever going to plant seed if you are to lazy to dragg the seed out to the feild and plant it. So clever are you to devise so many excuses for laying around on your back side. Did you know that millions have died and went to hell because of lazy Christians. This is what man's so called logic brings. Why should you spread the gospel you don't want heaven to crowded do you.
May Christ open your eyes;
Mike

 

If Jesus is the living Word and the Bible is the written Word and He is and the Word coming from Jesus has been written for our benefit, what makes you think that the written Word is powerless toward some of the lost ones. The written Word has come from the living Word and the Holy Spirit in conjunction with the Father convicts and convinces all lost souls who read it, or hear it preached.

He convinces the world 'of sin, of righteousness and coming judgment.'

The very nature of God as to His infinite love and justice insures that all who hear the truth will be convicted of their lost condition, and not merely to the marginal and fortunate Effectually Called ones.

If you delete the Attributes of God, then Calvinism would have been a viable option. Of course, you would also have to delete much of the N.T. also as in I Timothy 2:4 & 6; Hebrew 2:9; II Peter 3:9; I John 5:13; I John 2:2 and multiple other portions of the Bible.

 

Hello ILUVLIGHT.

Is that from the Lord or you? What is the gospel?

Thank you that you care so much for me. I don't understand why you say that you don't want me to say that Christ commanded me to lie, what if He did, then I must say it or lie isn't that so?

Lucky is your newest god is it?
Indeed this verse doth say every creature! But I don't know how you get from Dr Dolittle to Dr Donothing!

You make a strong case for this course of action.

I was unaware of making an excuse or for any reason to make one from my post. I don't mind though. If the Lord deems it so that is His perogative, He is not going to worry me! 2CH 18:22 "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."
For it was not I that said you should not evangelise that was you saying it was me.

My excuses are rarely in direct conflict with scripture but as one has already pointed out I am a Philadelphia lawyer. I use scripture for my excuses and then allow my conscience to dictate my actions not your conscience.

Big seeds are they? I'm a townie I do not know the ways of the countryside.
I don't know. What do you think the answer to that is? Maybe I could just sit at my computer all day pretending I am doing likewise. This would have the added benefit that persecution is limited to the verbal unless the board got sick of me in which case I could become a martyr by being cutoff from fellowship! St johnp with the modest j. Sounds good to me. Have you not heard, "Romans 14:4 Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand."

Ooh! Really laying into me or what? Nice one man. Get it off yer chest mate. Verbal persecution must be worth some Kingdom points 'a'? Not much but some.
What 'so many'? I said that sitting at the feet of Jesus is better than anything else. To my way of calculating that is one. Maybe one too many maybe. I see you don't fall for that line either! The way you are going on someone will think we are married!

Why blame lazy Christians because millions have not used their free will to escape the coming wrath? I think that is the best way to answer you.

Man's logic brings millions to die? Man's logic? Are there different sorts of logic?

I most certainly don't want Heaven crowded. The very thought of queuing up in Heaven sort of defeats the word Heaven. But then if I were to have my way I would definitly not allow jazz musicians or the French in.
There should be an 11th commandment, Charismatics should be seen but not heard.HaHa. I wonder how many others I can have a go at?
Arminians should be allowed in as long as they sincerely repent!HaHa!
Taxi drivers should be left just outside forever waiting.

You have a vivid imagination you might be good at writing fiction. Have you ever tried?

johnp.

 

Hello Ray.

I don't know if you are speaking to someone in paticular but as for me I have never said the word is powerless in anything. That He is not powerless but that He is the One that chooses the lost ones to be the lost ones. I'm supralapsarian remember.

Could you explain Romans 2:12 RO 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law...

Fortunate? You turned to ILUVLIGHT's god too?
I think that the answer must be that we are saved by grace Ray not by conviction.
I'm sure that Peter and Judas were filled with conviction but neither asked for forgiveness! Conviction does not save. Jesus saves.

If God were a vegetable He'd be a lot easier to get along with. If God were a vegetable we could all be in Veggie Tales. Have you seen any Veggie Tales Ray. I recommend them. Compulsive viewing.
How can anyone stand against a sentence like that man? Let us stay in reality.

 

There are more out than in so the saying goes. I was at the nut house yesterday as two of my friends have been admitted. They let me out but next time I go I shall see what I can do for you. I am fascinated to find out what those drugs do to one. My friends look as if they have been struck with a rubber mallet. They are both Calvinists.HaHa!
What are you doing Wes wasting your time on the converted? You say all that is required of us is to believe in God. As far as Calvinists go they cannot be said to not believe. You may think our doctrine is false but we believe in God. Your universal atonement deals with our sin. Our falling short of the truth. You spend yourself in trying to change our doctrine not get us to believe in God. That we do already and so are safe.
You Arminians are not safe though if we are right. You it is that is man centered. Your faith is your saviour and that is your problem.

johnp. </font>[/QUOTE]Sorry to hear about your friends, but if they are Calvinists and thus "the elect", why are they having the trouble you indicate they are having? Is God failing to "keep his sheep"? Is it possible that God has not given them "enough" faith? What would that be, 1/2 a mustard seed? Or could it be that they are "losing their faith in God"?

What happens if while going through their trouble they lose their faith all together? Are they still saved because they are "the elect" because they were once Calvinists?

If I were their friend I would be telling them what the Christ's atonement did for them, and that is Removal of the penalty for sin. And that if they recognize their sin, confess that sin; that God forgives that sin and cleanses it from them. That gives them the power to repent from doing the sin. Yes, the chemical affect on their flesh must be treated, but the treatment is easier to bear if the spirit is relieved of its guilt and cooperates with the treatment.

You claim that Arminians believe you can lose your faith and thus your salvation? Look at your friends!

 

johnp,

You said, ‘Could you explain Romans 2:12 RO 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law... [/quote]

I believe it to mean those lost souls before the Ten Commandments and sinners who never saw the Ten Commandments will perish when Christ comes to judge all lost souls. There judgment in Hell will be much less than those who willfully disobeyed the Laws of God and spurned His grace.

Jesus said to the Scribes and Pharisees that because they knew the truth as to Who He really was/is that they would in the future ‘receive the greater damnation.’ [Matthew 23:14f] This suggests to me that some will be punished worse than other lost souls. Those who know the plan of salvation and the truth who still reject Jesus will have a more severe punishment in Hell than those who never saw the Ten Commandments.

 

Wes.

That there are degrees of punishment in Hell I agree with. This will not accord with you though I think because if the only reason for being sent to Hell is unbelief, Jesus having paid for sin, then Hitler would receive the same punishment as the little old lady next door.

Is that right?

johnp.

 

Ray.
You said.

I asked you to explain Romans 2:12 to which you replied, I believe it to mean those lost souls before the Ten Commandments and sinners who never saw the Ten Commandments will perish when Christ comes to judge all lost souls. There judgment in Hell will be much less than those who willfully disobeyed the Laws of God and spurned His grace. So when you said, He convinces the world 'of sin, of righteousness and coming judgment.' You do not mean the whole world do you?

johnp.

 

I agree. I think our disagreement is over how to word it.

Absolutely.

I think that is a straw man issue. The Gospel is good news for WHOSOVER believeth.

Not nit picky though, an important distinction I feel. The gospel is good news to whosoever believes that is true but that is what I am saying. You are not saying that, you say we should tell everybody that Jesus is good news to them and this is just not so is it? Jesus “ is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe" (I've seen your 1 Timothy 4:10 and it is a difficult scripture for me. I'll look into it).

Yet Mr Boston says we should tell such people that there is good news for them?

This is the point. Not that it is nit picky but important. Jesus Christ died for the sins of all men if by all men it is meant all sorts. This is true but Mr Boston encourages us to tell any person that there is good news for them when there is evidently none for some of them.

Yet Mr Boston says we should tell such people that there is good news for them?

I could understand Boston if he said it like, "“‘Go and tell everyman without exception that here is good news for him." if. If you believe but not unless 'if' is included in the statement.

That in bold, if you do not mind me saying so, is very bold indeed! That he should countenance error is bad enough but to declare that he knows how everybody understands the statement is simply wrong.
I for one never take it for granted that everyone knows how the statement is meant to be understood. If I hear the statement then I find out what the person means by it.

If I tell someone that Jesus died for their sins then I have told them their sins penalty has been paid.
If I then say that it is on condition of accepting the gospel then the question must come back, is that a sin not to?
If I say yes then the answer is 'then I don't need to do anything, Jesus paid for that sin'. Did Jesus pay the full penalty? Of course He did and that must include not believing the gospel.

I said, To this I agree but the call must not include that it is in paticular for a certain individual but only for those who believe, no?
You answered, That is exactly the context of both Boston and Calvin.
If that is so then there is no disagreement. But you later say, when Calvinists and even Arminians say Christ died for your sins it is always understood that the death of Christ is of no benefit to one who rejects the Gospel offer and in the end it is for whosoever believes. To which I object.

That though there is no universal atonement, yet in the word there is warrant given to offer Christ to all mankind, whether elect or reprobate, and a warrant to all freely to receive him, however great sinners they are, or have been.

Yes an offer to be made but based on whosoever. This is not to give us warrant to preach to anyone that Christ died for them. We don't know if He did.

johnp.

 

Hi JohnP;
We can only know each other by our words in this forum. Your words were negative to the commandments of Christ. Your excuse is that you'd be lying if you told someone who isn't elect that Christ Died for them. Since God doesn't lie and by your statement you are saying that anyone who tells someone who isn't elect is lying. You are then encouraging men not to obey the commandments of Christ. This is turning men from Christ. I'm sorry if you consider this as some kind of judgement how ever like I said at the beginning of this post we can only know each other by our words.
You said;

As a matter of fact I do care about you just as I do everyone I meet. Some are a blessing to me. some are a challenge. Some are a curse. I don't blame you I blame ignorance. Men only perrish for lack of knowledge. The reason most refuse sound doctrine is because they are convinced they have all the answers. No one has all the answers not me, not you, nor anyother man. I have presented what I believe to be true and you have as yet failed to prove I'm wrong with scripture. When others or even I myself prove something to you. You just avoid it all together.
Then you make a statement such as this;

Then you wonder why old Mike is being so critical. In this statement you not only display a dislike for evangilism but your saying that if you did tell others about Christ not knowing if they are elect. You'd be lying if there not. This is saying that Christ ordered us all to lie. God has no sin and doesn't encourage man to take part in it anywhere in scripture. All the while in a round about way you are accusing me of being a hypocrit when you just as critical.

Now I know you going to say well I was just being sarcastic yeah! right. I wasn't.

May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

There is but one point in eternity when eternal fate of the individual human is determined BY GOD, and that is Judgment. God the Son declared that those who have faith ARE NOT JUDGED! But those LACKING FAITH, judge themselves because of their LACK of FAITH! Revelation 20:14,15 declares that the deeds of ALL mankind are judged, and that is a different judgement than the eternal judgment. Only those whose names are not found in the book of life receive eternal judgment of being cast into "the second death" which is the death of spirit. And, it is eternal judgment in that no spirit cast into the lake of fire ever, ever, ever, returns therefrom.

I have never stated that there are degrees of punishment in Hell! I do not believe that, and Scriptures do not reveal such, Dante's story does but not scripture! Scripture is clear that the lake of fire is final and there is no redemption from it thus the torment may be momentary, but it is eternal!

Now those who have FAITH in God do not face that final judgment, they pass from death (physical) into life eternal (spiritual). But it is faith in the spirit that makes the difference. So if you die with spiritual faith in you, you live eternally. If however, you die lacking faith in God, you get cast into the lake of fire, never to be seen or heard from again, nor will you be remembered.

If Hitler died having faith in God, for which no evidence exists, then Hitler lives forever, after receiving the "reward" for his deeds. His sins which were many were Atoned by Christ!

Dwell on that, you will see the wonder of God's redemption plan.

NO! there is no such thing as universal Salvation, for salvation is through faith alone!

 

johnp,

You said,

This is sick theology. Of course, Jesus died for all sinners. [John 1:29] The Lamb of God, our Lord Jesus removed all sins from all sinners, providing for their redemption.

If they do not believe [John 3:16]He will bring in the bad report as clearly depicted in Revelation 20:11-15---especially verse *12

Jesus only applies His justifying blood atonement to those who truly believe in Him. [Romans 5:1] Rest assured the provision for cleansing is there for all sinners. [I John 2:2]

The warrant that you are searching for is found in Mark 16:15-16. Especially notice verse fifteen. Have a Christian who is a child explain it to you.

 

Much has been said I shall dwell on it overnight.

johnp.

 

Kiffin.

There's a thread discussing 1 Tim 4:10 I think you might like to look at.
http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/35/1216.html

I can see Phil Johnson as not being the flavour of the month.
Read John Owen too, but don’t imagine that John Owens’s book The Death of Death in the Death of Christ represents the only strain of Calvinist thought on the issue. It doesn’t. In fact, far from it.

This statement is too much man. "Far from it"? Makes me wonder if he has read it. I actually dug out my copy of the death of death a little few days ago. I read it soon after becoming a Christian and I have meant to revisit it. I will now reread it.

I know that statement he makes of John Owen is wrong. The only way Owen could possibly be 'far from it' is if you are not Calvinist.

Too many Calvinists embrace the doctrine of limited atonement, they finally see the truth of it but then they think, “Oh that’s that.” Christ died for the elect and in no sense are their any universal benefits in the atonement, so the atonement is limited to the elect in every sense and it has no relevance whatsoever to the non-elect.

I don't trust people that tell me they know what others are thinking. But the construction of the sentence is wrong so maybe there is a glitch in the understanding I get.
He changes horses in mid-stream. He goes from talking about benefits to talking about relevance. That it has relevance cannot be denied but as to benefits this must be.

johnp.

 

Great post Wes! posted 28 January, 2005 13:06 Drawn by the Spirit (Page 4)

I shall pass your solicitations onto them thank you. I shall print it off and take it into them soon as I can to discuss the merits of your observations. In the meantime I shall answer on their behalf I have some idea what they would say in response to you.

I think this post of yours allows me a certain amount of room.
Is God failing to "keep his sheep"?
A question so full of potential!
Is it possible that God has not given them "enough" faith?
But you do not believe faith is communicable do you? So the question is not a question but a freely expressed sarcasm aimed at me through the sick.
I'll take an advantage though. That you equate sickness with a lack of faith surprises me. I did not realise that you were into the charismatic word of faith droppings! Yet I suppose you do not care enough to heal them from where you are, could you?
Answering as a nice Calvinist I would say that my Shepherd is beyond reproach by the likes of us. The faith that each has is controlled by the Giver. If a person has little faith it is because God gave him little faith. There is nothing sub-standard about a little faith or the possesor of a little faith. A little faith can move mountains don't you know? Each receives faith as the Father gives it by His grace. The Father gives it to whoever asks for it and in this you are allowed to be greedy.
I'd say this is the only reason for little faith. The Children do not ask for more. We are too polite. And God does not work great faith in all if great faith is big. Half a mustard seed is ample. A bent reed or smouldering wick will do nicely thank you. A bent reed will not be broken nor will a smouldering wick be snuffed out like those who trust in man. Those asleep in Christ in the Church will be woken before the Return and that is a promise from Christ Himself. The elect have no worries. That is my faith. The Great Shepherd of the Sheep will lose none of those The Father gave Him. Praise Him!
As mad as my friends are they know their Lord has given them their illness for their good and put them where they are for their good and He has given them the blessing of doing His work in His way.
I would reply as Job would, "JOB 2:10 ..."You are talking like a foolish man. Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?" In all this, Job did not sin in what he said., "

I am very glad you are so interested in my friends. I'm sure they will send you their greetings soon. I can only reiterate what I said before, The Great Shepherd of the Sheep will lose none of those The Father gave Him. Praise Him!
...because they were once Calvinists? No but once they were forgiven.

Think it through! If once we have been to Jesus and asked for the forgiveness of sins and the forgiveness of sins has been granted then tell me what sin you go to Hell for? Unbelief is a sin. Everything is permissable to us but not everything is helpful. If we choose the unhelpful then we are not for that reason excluded. We are included by God who has given us an irrevocable promise, an irrevocable gift.
But why ask the question as if you do not know the answer? What is that all about? Do you just want to draw some warmth from my answer that I have been loved with a love that is an everlasting love. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres, love never fails.
Now this might seem like sentimental twaddle to you but to me it is the kiss of life. That is what I'm after. That is what I have had my heart set on and I shall not fail because the One in me is greater than all.
What you offer is death.
1CO 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? 3 Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4 When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.
There is the man's punishment for having your father's wife. Straight to glory!

We are free.

If you were their friend I'm sure you would not have used their sickness as a tool.

Yes I do. I am always telling them because they are so forgetful. They will learn, when Jesus said He died for our sins, the elect that is, He meant that He died for our sins. It's hard to believe. The freedom is complete and completed the moment you are forgiven being born again.
Forgiven. Believe that, be it ever so little, and you are born again.
The effect in them is instant. The change in appearance and demeanor is marked.

Does it? What if God wants you to do a sin? I suppose you only to be speaking from experience? You must be clean if you believe that you have been given the power to overcome sin!
Men recognise their sin. Christians especially. But repentance is not required for the washing of one's feet. One's feet are washed clean when you tell God the truth. 1JN 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

I wish I knew what you are saying it sounds fascinating!

What you mean I believe Arminians believe I can lose my faith look at my friends?
A sentence like that makes it impossible to be offended but I shall take it in the spirit it was written with.

johnp.

 

Ray. posted 28 January, 2005 14:16 Drawn by the Spirit (Page 4)

Good, there is clear daylight between you and Wes.
Now the question is why do some suffer more than others in Hell if all sin has been atoned for?

johnp.

 

Wes. posted 28 January, 2005 16:39 Drawn by the Spirit (Page 4)

I never said you did. I asked you the question.

John 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."

John 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? 47 He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

So you are saying Hitler did not die in His sins which Jesus warned the Jews that they were able to do so but he had a clean slate like old Marge next door?
John 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."
Strange that, Jesus said you can die in your sins but you say all sins have been atoned for?

This is an interesting piece of news. What do you mean by an eternal moment if not another scriptural denial. Which is it, eternal or momentary?

johnp.