Drawn by the Spirit

If you did follow scripture we would not be having this conversation. NO MAN GOES TO HELL FOR SIN! The ONLY factor that sends a man to hell is LACK OF FAITH IN GOD!

 

At what point did God give HIS law to man? Was it not with MOSES? What about all those who lived prior to God giving the Law to MOSES? They were not under the law, therefore the Law cannot judge them! I thought you said you follow the scriptures?

 

Hi JohnP;
This below is what you claimed I said. While I agree with it what comes after it is what you said

What I'm laughing at is your attempt to slander me again. You can't prove me wrong so what do you do you slander me.
Curious that Christ perdicted such things when he said if they hated me they will also hate you. Why do you hate me so JohnP? When Christ commanded that we are to Love. This isn't the first time you have slandered me. Are you the accuser of the breathern?
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

ILUVLIGHT.

The sentence is meaningless to me.
For the second time today you have accused me of writing something to you that I wrote, as far as I know, to Ray. I've gone back a little way and as far as I can see I wrote to Ray.
I want you to explain yourself properly. I want the time of the post and the page number. And I want to understand your beef!

Another charge.

Are you the accuser of the breathern?
Who Satan? Me?HaHa. What would you do with the answer you would get from him?

The charge can't be slander. Do you mean libel?
JOB 31:35 ("Oh, that I had someone to hear me! I sign now my defense--let the Almighty answer me; let my accuser put his indictment in writing.

johnp.

 

Wes.

If I knew my scriptures I would believe that man is cast into the burning Lake of Fire with the penalty for their sins paid in full.
I'm glad not to have met you and asked you for directions away from and not towards the Lake of Fire.

Has the term 'hyper-Arminian' been coined yet?

If? Original sin is dumped.

So the aborted fetus has not sinned has it? The still born baby has not broken a command has it? The wages of sin is death. Why do babies die? Because they are sinners and dead in their sin and transgressions.
No man goes to Hell because of their sin? Unbelief is rampant among babies is it not. They go to Hell not for their sin but because they could not believe? Or am I twisting it too much if at all? Or have you invented another mechanism to get around this? All babies go to Heaven? A thing not provable. An age of responsibility with only philosophy as a lame support?
So we go from the fact that all men are born in sin to the imagination that all men are born with the forgiveness of sins applied and just watch your step or you will end up a forgiven sinner in Hell but not because you sinned. This is quite bizarre.
DT 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. 5 Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.
That's the law speaking. It is the law given to man for man to know and obey. Where this is breached punishment is due. All mankind are under this law from the moment of conception. David knew it, " PS 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."
If any man could live his life sinless, he would not need a savior!
Think again.

That's called works that is. Tell me if unbelief was a sin Jesus failed to die for. The wages of sin is death and only the wages of sin. Is the Lake of Fire not death? The Lake of Fire is the second death is it not? What was that question I ask recently? Did you not mention something about this, that Hell was momentary?

It's bizarre man really bizarre. ...a fatal error condition... Sounds more like a blue screen to me man rather than the Lake of Fire.
That is death and death is the wages one receives for sin. The condition is not an error but God is Sovereign. You can die in your sins. John 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."

I thought being called a follower of Paul was too good to last. Back to the second fiddle.

johnp.

 

Today, most babies that die die the innocent victims of murder!

Likewise unproveable is that all babies go to hell!

Do you, or did you hold your infants accountable for anything except being infants? Do you think the Father in Heaven would do otherwise?

You CONTINUE to misunderstand ATONEMENT. Now you confuse it with "forgiveness of sins". NOWHERE have I made such a distinction! The Christ's Atonement deals only with sin, that "power" over man, not with Forgiveness of sins that man does! God is under no obligation to forgive what hasn't been confessed! Again using your own family as an illustration, If your child does something you call sin, or "bad", but does not acknowledge to you that he/she understands it to be sin or bad, and thus does not confess it to you, are you under obligation to forgive what was done? If you say yes, then I'd have to question which one is the mature adult. If you answer "no", then why do you demand that God has such an obligation? The answer there is that God has no obligation to forgive you for wrongs you do not acknowledge through confession. Simply not continuing to do the wrong thing is repentance, but it is not confession of the wrong done, so No obligation to forgive is imposed on the offended one.

Let's see, Deuteronomy is the fifth book of the law, and Exodus is the second, Exodus 20 is where the Tables of Law were given to man. So what happened from Genesis 1:1 through Exodus 19? Were all those people in all those stories covered by the law that was delivered many hundreds of year later?

What you quoted may be the Higher order law, but it is not ALL the Law which began with Exodus 20!

 

That's called works that is. Tell me if unbelief was a sin Jesus failed to die for. The wages of sin is death and only the wages of sin. Is the Lake of Fire not death? The Lake of Fire is the second death is it not? What was that question I ask recently? Did you not mention something about this, that Hell was momentary?</font>[/QUOTE]If one's spirit is in the condition of possessing "FAITH in God", THAT IS NOT WORKS!

Conversely, if one's spirit is in the condition of Lacking FAITH in GOD, That is not SIN!

It is the condition of one's spirit that determines one's eternal destiny!

Faith in God? Pass Judgment, Collect Eternal life.

Lack of Faith in God? Do not pass judgment, Go straight to HELL! (lake of fire for those too sentitive for the other word)

The condition of FAITH in GOD resident in one's spirit is the determining factor for Salvation!

Hell Momentary? When one is cast into the lake of fire, the sensation of Hell for that one is momentary because death is a moment in time, However, the effect (result) is eternal! The spirit what was living is instantly dead forever!

 

One note, gentlemen, the majority of theological writing regarding the death of babies favors that they all go to heaven. There is no indication in Scripture that they go to hell. The Arminian uses the idea of the age of accountabilty (which is, apparently, relative for each person and not fixed, just one more unScriptural soteriological innovation), whereas the Reformed position simply recognizes that it would be unjust for God to condemn a baby to hell since they have not sinned, therefore, they go to heaven, because all babies are united to Christ in the atonement along with all the other elect, which is by far a proposition that requires less exegetical gymnastics. They are still sinners by nature, just as Scripture says, "in sin I was conceived," but God, we believe most likely simply unites them all to Christ via sovereign decree, so they are covered in the atonement. Occam's razor favors the Reformed position on the dynamics of infants and the afterlife.

Here is a good article on it:

http://www.sbts.edu/mohler/FidelitasRead.php?article=fidel036

On the contrary, your belief in substitutionary atonement is that it is a real substitution for all sin for all men everywhere and all through time. Scripture clearly says that men are sent to hell for their sins. Therefore, you have God punishing sinners twice over for something that Jesus has paid for Himself already. That is double jeopardy. Where does Scripture teach double jeopardy? Your posts about atonement continue to try to reconcile a real substitution and general atonement. That can't be done without leading directly to universalism. This is probably why you do not believe unbelief is a sin, contrary to the direct testimony of Scripture as has been shown to you so many times by so many people I've lost count.

Actually, it also deals with God's wrath. I John 2:2.

Read 1 John. Within a few verses of 1:9, John tells us that the basis for the forgiveness of sins is Christ's propitiation for our sins. No man whose sins are unpaid for by Christ, for whatever reason, has his sins forgiven. All persons that Christ died for have their sins forgiven. We confess our sins to God in order for fellowship to be restored in our relationship, not to have them forgiven in a redemptive, salvific manner. 1 John 1:9, incidentally, is not necessarily solely about God's forgiveness of sins when we pray confessionally. It is written as a contradiction to the Gnostics who were claiming that had no sin in them at all. John is saying that the real Christian is the person that confesses that he still sins. We know God forgives if we confess our sins, e.g. the hallmark of a true Christian is an ongoing attitude of repentance and sorrow for sins that we commit. He is by no means teaching that we must continually confess sins to God in a rote manner in order to obtain forgiveness, in some kind of sacramental fashion, because Christ has, in fact, paid for our sins already. We confess our sins because real salvation manifests itself in a confessional manner of repentance and sorrow for sins. God can forgive sins that we confess in prayer or simply forsake and restore the broken fellowship, because Christ has paid for our sins and satisfied God's wrath. (There is nothing in 1 John 1:9 about praying for forgiveness for sins as most of us do. We get that practice from Mt. and Lk. from the model prayer.) There is no forgiveness, ever, for the unsaved, because their sins are not paid for by Christ. Therefore, forgiveness is by no means what man does, it is what God does for us because of Christ. Not one Christian has unforgiven sins in redemptive, propitiatory sense. Sin affects our fellowship with God, and in the sense of our fellowship with God, it damages that fellowship. That is why we confess our sins to Him. In the overall context, however, John is much more concerned about the attitude that the practicing of some sort of sacramental confession.

According to Paul in Romans 2, yes, because...

14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,


15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

Paul's theology of the Law was that Jews had the written Law, but the Gentiles were not exempt from it, because they showed an instinctive understanding of the Law and chose to disobey it the same way as a Jew with the written Law did after it was given. The purpose of the Law, both written and instinctive is to reveal sin, therefore Paul can write:

Rom 3:9 both Jews and Greeks are all under sin.

and then

Rom 3:19,20:

19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;


20because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

So, yes, those persons were certainly under the curse of the Law even though it had not yet been given, because they were under sin, and sin is exactly what the Law reveals. This is why the Law does not save.

Which directly contradicts Romans 14:23 that says EXPLICITLY that WHATEVER is not of faith is sin. What is the definition of "whatever," Wes? (Yes, this time, any English definition will do).

I CONTINUE TO BE AMAZED AT HOW QUICKLY STATEMENTS LIKE "WHATEVER" CEASE TO BE INCLUSIVE WHEN IT SUITS YOU ALL, BUT STATEMENTS LIKE "WORLD" "ALL" AND "WHOSOEVER" ARE ALWAYS INCLUSIVE OF ALL PEOPLE EVERYWHERE IN ALL AGES. TALK ABOUT INCONSISTENCY.

How does it not include the very thing you say is not sin? The very word for disobedience in Greek and unbelief in Greek is the same word, and Scripture also explicitly says that God pours out His wrath on disobedience using that word. Therefore, God pours out his wrath on unbelief. Disobedience is sin. Therefore unbelief is sin. Where does Scripture say that unbelief is not a sin? Your entire concept of what faith is unbiblical and straight from your own mind and not one time have you ever been able to support it from Scripture.

And if that is true, then sinners in hell at this very moment are suffering for their sins unjustly as God pours out His wrath that you say Christ actually satisfied for them. You can have that powerless atonement. At least mine is secured. Spurgeon was right.

 

Gene,
Before addressing the rest, this needs settlement.

Which directly contradicts Romans 14:23 that says EXPLICITLY that WHATEVER is not of faith is sin. What is the definition of "whatever," Wes? (Yes, this time, any English definition will do).</font>[/QUOTE]The definition of "whatever" is not important until we understand what the "of" does in that scripture. "Of" as used here implies a product that faith inspires or produces. That which is OF FAITH, means that something comes from faith or that Faith inspires one to do something. Faith is not at issue in Paul's words, it is what comes out of faith or the lack thereof. Whatever we do that does not come from faith is sin. Conversely, whatever we do that comes from faith must be good works. In either case FAITH is an existing condition within man, the absence of which is LACK OF FAITH.

Could you please take a little more time to research your references and find out what is really being said? You truly look foolish when you don't!

 

gene said

The way I read the scriptures, it appears the final judgment of all creation, especially man, has not taken place yet, so, no man is in hell. All who have lived and died up to now are somewhere, perhaps Hades, perhaps paradise, how can we know?

The atonement that I believe in, has greater power than the one you believe in which is limited and for a selected few.

 

Wes.

And what happens then to that person, do they remain conscious forever burning in the Lake of Fire?

It sounds like once the death sentence has been carried out the person no longer exists. Is that what you are saying?

johnp.

 

Hi JohnP;

No I mean Lies and accusations from you This is all you can do.
Mike

 

Hello Gene. Nice to meet you.

There is no indication either that the children of the lost go to Heaven. There is strong scriptural reasons to support the view that the children of the lost are lost but like the majority of theological writers I believe they make up the bulk of the Body of Christ. A number beyond counting. But that is only because I'm nice.

From the link you gave.

They go too far by insisting that a person who comes to an ambiguous understanding of this issue is taking cowardly refuge. The argument is good that they use but that does not prove that the children of the lost are saved. The ones in the wilderness were part of Israel, not all the pagans crossed into the promised land.
To accuse people of taking cowardly refuge because the bible is ambiguous on the subject is wrong and so was Spurgeon again. He has no right to promise a thing if the promise is not in scripture.
A Christian can believe that their children are safe because there is a promise that our children and their children are safe but that is not promised to the lost.

We should not give hope where no hope is found in scripture. The answer should not concentrate on what happened to the child but what is going to happen to the parents. They are of no use to their children by staying outside the Kingdom of God.
What is the difference between being conceived a sinner and dying young and a grown up sinner dying after many sins? Both were born in the condition that made them subject to the wrath of God, the very fact that children die means they come under the curse, and neither could act in any other way.
We should be careful about saying that God is not unjust as this is a judgement on God using man's standards. He does as He pleases.

Whatcha think?

johnp.

 

ILUVLIGHT.

Indite away old chap so I can make a reply.

johnp.