Drinking Alcohol Moderately

[Baptist Believer]

Scripture doesn't tell us that it is a bad idea to clean your gun while it is loaded, yet we can learn not to do something harmful from the "anecdotal evidence".

It is impossible to clean one's gun when it is loaded because the parts that need to be cleaned cannot be adequately accessed when a round is chambered.

The "cleaning the gun when it went off" is a euphemism used when someone doesn't want to admit that a person may have committed suicide.

Back to the alcohol discussion. I've seem many of these debates over the years. In my opinion, the anti-alcohol side builds it's case on one or more of the following ideas:

1.) Negative consequences from immoderate/irresponsible use of alcohol. (This is the same kind of thinking that vilifies guns instead of holding people responsible for what they do with guns.)
2.) Out-of-context wisdom statements from Proverbs instead of the careful consideration of the whole counsel of God from both Old and New Testaments.
3.) The assumption that because they (or family members) were previously (or currently) irresponsible with alcohol, that everyone else is as well.
4.) The assumption that those who advocate a scriptural position regarding moderate use of alcohol are really just looking for an excuse to get drunk.
5.) That modern blood alcohol levels for driving while under the influence are an appropriate measuring tool for an appropriate biblical level of drunkenness. (Especially in regard to the mild dulling of the sense of taste that may have normally occurred during wedding celebrations such as the one recorded in John 2 at Cana.)
6.) That there was some sort of anti-miracle going on in New Testament days where a group of biblical believers could get together and all drink some sort of "non-alcoholic wine", yet a few immoderate people were somehow getting drunk off of it.

As I have mentioned in previous discussions, I didn't touch anything alcoholic until I was 33, and have never had enough alcohol at any one time to get my blood alcohol up to a level where it would be unsafe for me to drive. However, I occasionally have a small glass of wine for health and social reasons (not because of peer pressure, but to receive hospitality and serve as a model of moderation for others). It was actually my Christian convictions that has led me in this direction.

 

[PrivateWoman]

It is impossible to clean one's gun when it is loaded because the parts that need to be cleaned cannot be adequately accessed when a round is chambered.

The "cleaning the gun when it went off" is a euphemism used when someone doesn't want to admit that a person may have committed suicide.

Back to the alcohol discussion. I've seem many of these debates over the years. In my opinion, the anti-alcohol side builds it's case on one or more of the following ideas:

1.) Negative consequences from immoderate/irresponsible use of alcohol. (This is the same kind of thinking that vilifies guns instead of holding people responsible for what they do with guns.)
2.) Out-of-context wisdom statements from Proverbs instead of the careful consideration of the whole counsel of God from both Old and New Testaments.
3.) The assumption that because they (or family members) were previously (or currently) irresponsible with alcohol, that everyone else is as well.
4.) The assumption that those who advocate a scriptural position regarding moderate use of alcohol are really just looking for an excuse to get drunk.
5.) That modern blood alcohol levels for driving while under the influence are an appropriate measuring tool for an appropriate biblical level of drunkenness. (Especially in regard to the mild dulling of the sense of taste that may have normally occurred during wedding celebrations such as the one recorded in John 2 at Cana.)
6.) That there was some sort of anti-miracle going on in New Testament days where a group of biblical believers could get together and all drink some sort of "non-alcoholic wine", yet a few immoderate people were somehow getting drunk off of it.

As I have mentioned in previous discussions, I didn't touch anything alcoholic until I was 33, and have never had enough alcohol at any one time to get my blood alcohol up to a level where it would be unsafe for me to drive. However, I occasionally have a small glass of wine for health and social reasons (not because of peer pressure, but to receive hospitality and serve as a model of moderation for others). It was actually my Christian convictions that has led me in this direction.

It is sad that you tasted alcohol for the first time when you were 33. It would have been so much better if you had never tasted alcohol. Why cannot you drink high quality grape juice instead? High quality grape juice has the same health benefits as wine. There is simply no alcohol in grape juice.

I know of many Christians who wish they've never tasted alcohol even if they never got drunk.

I have never tasted alcohol on purpose and I know it's God's will for me to not taste alcohol at all. I think I may have accidentally sipped a little of my paternal grandfather's beer when I was about 3 or 4 years old.

I got an email from a friend yesterday who was sad about what happened at a wedding that her son was a groomsman in. You can find what she said below. It is so sad about how Christians lower their standards. It is so sad for me to see how many Christians work to justify that drinking alcohol moderately. They fail to think about the consequences of drinking alcohol moderately incuding the fact that it ruins your testimony. I am deeply offended to see Christians drinking.

Saturday we went to a wedding that my son was a groomsman in. The groom is a childhood friend of our children. He was such a committed believer with very conservative convictions until he met the girl he just married. He changed drastically for her. There was drunkeness and leudness going on all weekend - my son was very uncomfortable with the whole scene. Makes us so sad to see how far from the teachings of his parents and his own convictions that this friend has come.

 

[PrivateWoman]

No matter how much you try to defend drinking of alcohol in moderation, it still isn't allowed in the Bible... whether you want to accept it or not.

There are so many verses that talk negatively about alcoholic wine. In ancient times, unfermented grape juice was referred as wine. People think that wine always means fermented grape juice, but that is not true.

Satan has used alcohol to hurt a lot of people. I know God is very grieved with what alcohol has done to people.

My former pastor said that he never tasted alcohol and it was hard for me to believe because his dad was an alcoholic. His mother prayed that he would never tasted alcohol and God answered that prayer. He's a very godly man. His life would have been very different if he had drank.

I don't feel that you can compare gun to alcohol at all. It seems like people tend to get off topic.

 

[dwmoeller1]

I'd like someone to work up some numbers on how many lives have been ruined by alcohol, by way of broken families, deaths, abuse, etc.

Next I'd like someone to work up some numbers on how many lives have been ruined by not drinking alcohol.

Then, let's talk about whether it is OK to drink or not....

Be sure to include how many lives were ruined by drinking in moderation and how many were not ruined drinking in moderation.

The problem with the above approach is that it insists on fallacious bifurcation. It creates the categories drinking and non drinking and then points out that those in the first category have their lives ruined by alcohol and those in the second category do not. However, the proper division would be immoderate drinker, moderate drinker and non drinker. In this case only the first category has their lives ruined by alcohol while the other two do not.

The fallacious nature of this bifurcation becomes obvious when applied to other categories. For instance:
1. Sex bifurcated as those who have sex and those who do not. Only those who have sex have their lives ruined by sex, thus having any sex is not ok.
2. Drugs bifurcated as those who use drugs and those who do not. Only those who use drugs have their lives ruined by drugs, thus using any drugs is not ok.

Reasoning from such fallacious bifurcations leads to the conclusion that one should never have sex (even in marriage) and that one should never use drugs (even for medical purposes) - what everyone would consider to be absurd conclusions. So the reasoning is obviously fallacious. It is no more reasonable to insist on only two categories of alcohol use than it is to insist on only two categories of those who have sex.

 

[webdog]

It is sad that you tasted alcohol for the first time when you were 33. It would have been so much better if you had never tasted alcohol. Why cannot you drink high quality grape juice instead? High quality grape juice has the same health benefits as wine. There is simply no alcohol in grape juice.

I know of many Christians who wish they've never tasted alcohol even if they never got drunk.

I have never tasted alcohol on purpose and I know it's God's will for me to not taste alcohol at all. I think I may have accidentally sipped a little of my paternal grandfather's beer when I was about 3 or 4 years old.

I got an email from a friend yesterday who was sad about what happened at a wedding that her son was a groomsman in. You can find what she said below. It is so sad about how Christians lower their standards. It is so sad for me to see how many Christians work to justify that drinking alcohol moderately. They fail to think about the consequences of drinking alcohol moderately incuding the fact that it ruins your testimony. I am deeply offended to see Christians drinking.

Saturday we went to a wedding that my son was a groomsman in. The groom is a childhood friend of our children. He was such a committed believer with very conservative convictions until he met the girl he just married. He changed drastically for her. There was drunkeness and leudness going on all weekend - my son was very uncomfortable with the whole scene. Makes us so sad to see how far from the teachings of his parents and his own convictions that this friend has come.

Here you do not address a single point except demean him for drinking. Why don't you and "Fred" ever discuss Scripture instead of your faulty understanding of it?

 

[dwmoeller1]

It is sad that you tasted alcohol for the first time when you were 33. It would have been so much better if you had never tasted alcohol. Why cannot you drink high quality grape juice instead? High quality grape juice has the same health benefits as wine. There is simply no alcohol in grape juice.

That it is sad from your perspective we grant. That it is sad from a Scriptural perspective would be untrue.

I know of many Christians who wish they've never tasted alcohol even if they never got drunk.

Then that is an issue with the own conscience. They clearly did not drink in faith. If one cannot drink in faith then one should not drink. But the fact that some do not have the faith to drink does not imply that it is therefore wrong for others.

I have never tasted alcohol on purpose and I know it's God's will for me to not taste alcohol at all. I think I may have accidentally sipped a little of my paternal grandfather's beer when I was about 3 or 4 years old.

If you believe it is God's will for you not to taste alcohol, then you should not do so. It would be wrong for you to do so if you cannot partake in faith. BUT! this is not a legitimate, much less Scripturally sound, argument as to why others should not drink.

I got an email from a friend yesterday who was sad about what happened at a wedding that her son was a groomsman in. You can find what she said below. It is so sad about how Christians lower their standards. It is so sad for me to see how many Christians work to justify that drinking alcohol moderately. They fail to think about the consequences of drinking alcohol moderately incuding the fact that it ruins your testimony. I am deeply offended to see Christians drinking.

It does NOT ruin one's testimony except in particular situations. It is unjustified and false to claim this when there are so many counter examples.

Saturday we went to a wedding that my son was a groomsman in. The groom is a childhood friend of our children. He was such a committed believer with very conservative convictions until he met the girl he just married. He changed drastically for her. There was drunkeness and leudness going on all weekend - my son was very uncomfortable with the whole scene. Makes us so sad to see how far from the teachings of his parents and his own convictions that this friend has come.

If meeting a girl can cause one to fall into immoderation and sin, then, by your own reasoning, it is unwise for unmarried guys and gals to ever interact socially. It is therefore best for unmarried guys and gals to never interact.

Can you not see that such reasoning when applied to other things leads to absurd conclusions? The same is true when it is applied to alcohol use. Such reasoning relies on dividing the issue into extremes and drawing conclusions from that. Such reasoning is fallacious.

 

[dwmoeller1]

There are so many verses that talk negatively about alcoholic wine. In ancient times, unfermented grape juice was referred as wine. People think that wine always means fermented grape juice, but that is not true.

Take every verse which speaks negatively about alcoholic wine and look at the larger context. In every case you will find that the larger context is about *immoderate* use of alcohol. Never once is alcohol spoken negatively of unless it is within the context of immoderate use.

Satan has used alcohol to hurt a lot of people. I know God is very grieved with what alcohol has done to people.

Satan has used sex to hurt a lot of people. I know God is very grieved with what sex has done to people.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Take every verse which speaks positively about wine and compare them with every verse that speaks negatively about wine. Those that speak positively about wine reveal the absence of alcohol. Never once is alcohol spoken of positively.

 

[webdog]

Take every verse which speaks positively about wine and compare them with every verse that speaks negatively about wine. Those that speak positively about wine reveal the absence of alcohol. Never once is alcohol spoken of positively.

Wow. Just wow. That is the worst approach at Scripture one can take and has lead to Mormonism, Jehovah's Witness and many cults.

So, in Deut. 14:26 where wine is lumped together with "strong drink", since it's in a positive light, it must be just juice and the "strong drink" must be coffee? Unbelievable.

What do you do with the vow of the Nazarite where wine and grape juice are clearly listed as separate to avoid? How do you wiggle around that?

 

[annsni]

Take every verse which speaks positively about wine and compare them with every verse that speaks negatively about wine. Those that speak positively about wine reveal the absence of alcohol. Never once is alcohol spoken of positively.

What about "strong drink"?? That is always alcoholic. God even tells His people to go ahead and buy strong drink and enjoy it. Why is that?

To decide that "wine" spoken of well is non-alcoholic and "wine" spoken of poorly is alcoholic is very poor scholarship. Extremely poor.

 

[jbh28]

Take every verse which speaks positively about wine and compare them with every verse that speaks negatively about wine. Those that speak positively about wine reveal the absence of alcohol. Never once is alcohol spoken of positively.

there's a term for that. It's called eisegesis

Every time wine is used in a negative sense, it's alcoholic. Every time wine is used in the positive, it's grape juice. um...sorry, that's not how interpretation works.

 

[dwmoeller1]

Take every verse which speaks positively about wine and compare them with every verse that speaks negatively about wine. Those that speak positively about wine reveal the absence of alcohol. Never once is alcohol spoken of positively.

1. I notice you didn't bother trying to show that my assertion was incorrect. That would have been the best way to show my reasoning to be unsound. That you did not do so leads me to conclude that you recognize the truth of my assertion.

2. Even if your above were true, it still wouldn't lead to the conclusion that alcohol is forbidden by Scripture. One could still only conclude that immoderate use is forbidden.

2. More significantly though, your assertion can be (has been, actually) demonstrated to be false. Here is at least one verse which speaks very clearly of alcohol in positive terms:
Deut 14:26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice.

Alcohol here is both allowed (buy whatever you like...including alcohol), and associated with something positive (partake in the presence of the Lord and rejoice).

I would include so many other verses which speak of wine positively, except I know you would insist that they aren't speaking of alcohol but grape juice only. Since I don't feel like dealing with the fallacy of circular reasoning, for now I will just stick with one where the use of alcohol can't be denied.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

The Nazarite vow included abstinence from fermented wine, but also from unfermented wine. It also included abstinence from grapes dried or moist.

There is no indication that God approved of fermented wine anywhere in the Word of God.

 

[annsni]

The Nazarite vow included abstinence from fermented wine, but also from unfermented wine. It also included abstinence from grapes dried or moist.

What does that have to do with this discussion? We're not talking about a vow long gone. We're talking about today.

There is no indication that God approved of fermented wine anywhere in the Word of God.

DW just showed it to you. Do you deny that is in Scripture?

 

[dwmoeller1]

The Nazarite vow included abstinence from fermented wine, but also from unfermented wine. It also included abstinence from grapes dried or moist.

There is no indication that God approved of fermented wine anywhere in the Word of God.

I again refer you to a verse that has been pointed out 3 (maybe 4?) times in the last page or so. Deut 14:26. Please deal with this.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

I again refer you to a verse that has been pointed out 3 (maybe 4?) times in the last page or so. Deut 14:26. Please deal with this.

The yayin and shekar in Deuteronomy 14:26 were not alcoholic.

The Israelites drank no alcohol in their wanderings. Deuteronomy tells us they drank the pure blood of the grape... grape juice, not that which was defiled through the process of decay that causes fermentation.

 

[annsni]

The yayin and shekar in Deuteronomy 14:26 were not alcoholic.

The Israelites drank no alcohol in their wanderings. Deuteronomy tells us they drank the pure blood of the grape... grape juice, not that which was defiled through the process of decay that causes fermentation.

Seriously? The meaning of shekar IS alcoholic drink. It is the noun form of the verb that means "become drunk". How can you get drunk on non-alcoholic beverage?

 

[annsni]

Additionally, can we address Titus 2:3? In that verse we see that the "aged women" are to be "not given to much wine". If that is juice, why the limits on it? Why would Paul be speaking to Titus about how much juice a woman would drink who is in service of the Lord? We see the same thing applied to deacons in 1 Timothy 3:8. I cannot imagine ever telling someone in my church "Make sure you don't drink too much Welch's" as an issue of leadership, could you?

 

[dwmoeller1]

Ecclesiastes 9:7
Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.

It appears that this verse speaks positively of alcohol.

What's that you say? This is only talking about grape juice you say? Then please explain the other uses in Eccl:

Ecclesiastes 10:19
A feast is made for laughter, and wine maketh merry: but money answereth all things.


Grape juice maketh merry? Well I suppose maybe so...although how grape juice is related to feasting I am not quite seeing. It seems alcohol is the better reading in this passage...but I won't insist on it.

Ecclesiastes 2:3
I sought in mine heart to give myself unto wine, yet acquainting mine heart with wisdom; and to lay hold on folly, till I might see what was that good for the sons of men, which they should do under the heaven all the days of their life.

Solomon "gave himself" to grape juice? Now reading "wine" as referring to grape juice in Eccl is making no sense at all. Can I prove that alcohol is being referred to here? No, the word *could* mean alcohol or grape juice. But in context rendering it as "grape juice" appears absurd. How does one "give themselves" ("cheering" or "stimulating" in other versions) to grape juice?

Oh, whats that? This verse is speaking of alcohol? So you would have us believe that Solomon switches between the meanings w/o any textual evidence. He speaks of alcohol in chapter 2 but grape juice in chapter 9?

Ok, well I suppose that could be the case since I can't decisively prove otherwise. However, if Eccl. 2:3 is speaking of alcohol, then what is Eccl 2:24 speaking of when it says: There is nothing better for a man than to eat and drink and tell himself that his labor is good This also I have seen that it is from the hand of God.

Drink what? Well in given the context, it seems the most reasonable reading would associate it with the wine he drank in vs 3 of the same chapter. After all, the reference to labor is clearly in reference to the earlier part of the chapter (I enlarged my works, I made, etc.), and eating is a reference to vs 10 of the same chapter (compare vs. 25 with vs. 10). But if drinking is speaking of the alcohol of vs. 3, then why is it given in positive terms in vs. 25?

OH THE HORROR!! I am so confused! Wine means alcohol here, but not there, but here again it does, but there it doesn't...all in one book of the Bible, and without any textual clues I can see to know when it means what. I AM SO CONFUSED!

Oh wait...if I just read all those passages as speaking of the same thing, then the confusion is all gone. I just accept that God gave wine like He gave other good gifts (to be enjoyed as good things from God, but not sought after as that is folly) and all the verses work in harmony and it all makes sense. And without the need for guesswork as to what the word "wine" means in what verse.


But clearly taking that approach would just be a effort to justify my desire to drink alcohol "moderately". ....Oh wait, I don't drink...

 

[dwmoeller1]

The yayin and shekar in Deuteronomy 14:26 were not alcoholic.

The Israelites drank no alcohol in their wanderings. Deuteronomy tells us they drank the pure blood of the grape... grape juice, not that which was defiled through the process of decay that causes fermentation.

So Lev 10:9 is a prohibition against drinking grape juice before entering the temple?

Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations

And the vow of the nazarite was only to refrain from grape juice?

Numbers 6:3
He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.

And the strong drink here is only grape juice?

Deuteronomy 29:6
Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the LORD your God

In each case the phrase is exactly the same, yet in the first case Steadfast Fred denies that alcohol is being referenced, yet in the other two cases he holds that it is being referenced. And *he* is the one who claims we are just trying to justify our position?