Drinking Alcohol

[Linda64]

Originally posted by Phillip:

Linda64, not to get off the subject, but you said it is ridiculous regarding the point that Jesus made "fermented" wine. Would you go into that now?

Originally posted by Linda64:

Phillip:

The reason I didn't want to get into the "Jesus turned the water into "fermented" wine" at this time is because that subject has been covered in other threads, plus I did not want to drag out the original topic of my post to include that.

When I have more time, I would like to get into that subject, but right now, I don't have the time to do so. I have found that once the topic is started, it turns into a heated debate for the reason that everybody has a "predetermined" answer and nothing you say will change their mind--except the Lord changing their heart.

Originally posted by webdog:

The reason you don't want to get into it is because you are wrong. The best wine is the wine found in Isaiah 25:6, period. This is the same wine the Lord of Hosts will serve us some day (His words). Jesus made the BEST wine (well aged + fermented = ALCOHOLIC). Read Isaih 25:6 and try to twist it to mean non alcoholic. You can't. I will be interested to see what you, standingfirm and shiloh will be doing at this feast the Lord will provide for us...saying to the Lord "you can't serve that...your Word says it's sin...there are no such things as 'christian drinkers'...!"

Originally posted by Phillip:

Exactly, that is why I brought it up.

There would be no need for the statement that the man hosting the party would save the best wine for last after everybody is drunk when he would normally be serving the cheap wine. Apparently, the wine Jesus made was very high-quality, aged and ALCOHOLIC. I heard a preacher just last week saying that the wine that was used in the New Testament at the Lord's supper was actually Greek for "grape juice" and not "wine".

Phillip:

You (and webdog)are making a presumptuous judgment call here---I was very busy before and I did not have time to start into a discussion on a topic that has already been discussed on other threads (on which I have posted). You and webdog have your predetermined suppositions and nothing I post or have posted on other threads on BB will change your mind. You have judged (actually you have accused) me, standingfirminChrist and Shiloh) of being wrong, when all we do is use Scripture. Those whom I quote also back up what they say with Scripture. There is NOTHING we can say that will line up to your predetermined suppositions.

I knew you had an alterior motive when you asked me to elaborate on that topic. I will post a website with an article by Bruce Lackey: Did Jesus Make Alcoholic Wine? Read it, please.

http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/didjesus.htm

This will be my last post on this topic in this thread. There is only so much that can be said on this topic--it then becomes redundant. We are all accountable to God for what we say and do.

For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. (Matthew 12:37)

Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Abstain from all appearance of evil. (1 Thessalonians 5:21-22)


So, go on and have your alcohol, just be careful that a weaker brother does not see you!

It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. (Romans 14:21)

Cheers!!

 

[webdog]

That site has more holes in it's doctrine than swiss cheese. It would help if the verses quoted were used in context. I really like the first reason why Jesus didn't make fermented wine: Because He is Holy by nature. No kidding. It was the same Holy Jesus who was accused of being a drunkard after ADMITTING He drank! This alone debunks the rest of the argument from this site.

 

[webdog]

You (and webdog)are making a presumptuous judgment call here---I was very busy before and I did not have time to start into a discussion on a topic that has already been discussed on other threads

I have yet to see you respond to Isaiah 25:6 on any thread. I really would like to know how you can believe well aged wine can't be alcoholic.

You and webdog have your predetermined suppositions and nothing I post or have posted on other threads on BB will change your mind.

On the contrary. I was raised in a very legalistic family and believed the same way you do. It wasn't until acutally reading the verses about alcohol IN CONTEXT did I realize I was taught wrong, and all of those verses the likes of you use are ripped to shreds out of context.

You have judged (actually you have accused) me, standingfirminChrist and Shiloh) of being wrong, when all we do is use Scripture.

The use of Scripture in itself means nothing if it is used out of context. Satan used Scripture too. Context is the key...RIGHTLY dividing the Word.

I knew you had an alterior motive when you asked me to elaborate on that topic. I will post a website with an article by Bruce Lackey

Why post what someone else wrote? Why not post Scripture that PROVES drinking alcohol is sin...that the wine Jesus admitted drinking when being called a drunkard was grape juice...that somehow, some way well aged wine can be non alcoholic...that the wine or "other strong drink" we are told to buy in non alcholic. It can't be done.

 

[Johnv]

The Way of Life website? David Cloud's site? No one is actually taking something David Cloud says with any credibility, are they? Madeline Murray O'Haire has more credibility than him.

 

[Shiloh]

The same Jesus you people said was called an alcoholic, which never happened, was called a devil. Using your perverted method of Scripture interpretation that would make Him a little devil.....right? What do you people think of a beer company telling people to drink moderately, or a tobacco company that says you shouldn't smoke if you are under 18? How about a casino that advises people with a gambling problem to seek help? If you wern't bias because of your sin you would admit that to the world you drinkers are a joke. The Word of God tells us all about you folks in IITim.3:4,5....lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

 

[webdog]

shiloh, you are as blind and brainwashed as there is. How can one be accused of being a drunk when they only drink pepsi?

The same Jesus you people said was called an alcoholic, which never happened, was called a devil.

It did happen. Read Luke 7:33-35

Using your perverted method of Scripture interpretation that would make Him a little devil.....right?

Stawman not deserving of a response

What do you people think of a beer company telling people to drink moderately, or a tobacco company that says you shouldn't smoke if you are under 18?

I think they are telling the truth wisely. You should drink only in moderation, and it is against the law to purchase cigarettes under 18. Your point?

If you wern't bias because of your sin you would admit that to the world you drinkers are a joke.

I would say it's about time to pull that plank out of you eye now!

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Shiloh:
The same Jesus you people said was called an alcoholic, which never happened, was called a devil.

What he was called by his detractors is irrelevant to what scripture says on the topic. No where in scripture does it forbid a Christian to consume alcohol. It does, however, forbid a Christian to abuse alcohol.

Using your perverted method of Scripture interpretation that would make Him a little devil.....right?

Since no one in this thread has called Jesus a drunkard, your attempt at an accusation falls flat.

What do you people think of a beer company telling people to drink moderately, or a tobacco company that says you shouldn't smoke if you are under 18? How about a casino that advises people with a gambling problem to seek help?

All tose are irrelevant to what scripture says. Scripture does not forbid consumption of alcohol. Period.

If you wern't bias because of your sin you would admit that to the world you drinkers are a joke.

You need to repent for accusing people falsely. It is now YOU who is as the pharisees who accused Jesus falsely. You are now doing what you accuse others of doing. Repent.

The Word of God tells us all about you folks in IITim.3:4,5....lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

You're perverting scripture. No where in that verse does it condemn the use of alcohol. Neither does scripture anywhere equate a person who simply consumes alcohol to a lover of pleasures more than a lover of God, or of denying the power of God. You've now made two pharisaical statement for which you need to repent.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Shiloh:
The same Jesus you people said was called an alcoholic, which never happened, was called a devil. Using your perverted method of Scripture interpretation that would make Him a little devil.....right?

No. It would mean that you either don't understand or are willfully distorting the method of interpretation being employed... a form of deception.

The method of interpretation being employed is simply allowing words to mean what they mean.

I don't drink and won't. First, we have options that weren't available 2000 years ago... so I choose what is "best" rather than what is permissable. Second, I Corinthians establishes a principle using the example of meat sacrificed to idols that I believe applies to me. We are to use our liberty to the glory of Christ... and sacrifice it for the sake of our testimony.

What do you people think of a beer company telling people to drink moderately, or a tobacco company that says you shouldn't smoke if you are under 18?

That they are engaging in deceptive reverse psychology in their advertising. Telling a teenager they can't smoke or drink is the same thing as challenging them to do it to prove they're adults.

Beer companies know that they sound caring and noble by exhorting their customers to drink in moderation... knowing full well that their sales are enhanced and dependent upon those who don't.

How about a casino that advises people with a gambling problem to seek help?

Clever marketing.

If you wern't bias because of your sin you would admit that to the world you drinkers are a joke.

I am not a drinker... but that doesn't change the fact that God didn't deny Christians this liberty as a rule but rather the abuse of it so you shouldn't either.

The Word of God tells us all about you folks in IITim.3:4,5....lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

There is no more evidence that someone who enjoys drinking without excess loves pleasure more than God... than those who enjoy a good meal without gluttony.

 

[Linda64]

Originally posted by Johnv:
The Way of Life website? David Cloud's site? No one is actually taking something David Cloud says with any credibility, are they? Madeline Murray O'Haire has more credibility than him.

Johnv,

You had better watch what you are saying--just because you don't agree with David Cloud, it is not Christlike to make ad hominem statements such as you did by comparing him to a professed atheist. When you resort to doing such things, you must really dislike the message David Cloud preaches. I find David Cloud very credible--so call me what you want.

For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. (Matthew 12:37)

 

[Scott J]

Linda, You should take your own advice and revisit your "amen" of Shiloh on page 12 when he indirectly accused anyone who is a "drinker" of not being a real Christian.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Linda64:
Johnv, You had better watch what you are saying--just because you don't agree with David Cloud, it is not Christlike to make ad hominem statements such as you did by comparing him to a professed atheist.

You're right. Comparing Cloud to an atheist is an insult to atheists. A more accurate comparison would be comparing Cloud to Benny Hinn.

When you resort to doing such things, you must really dislike the message David Cloud preaches. I find David Cloud very credible--so call me what you want.

Yes, I dislike false teachers. That makes you a follwer of a false teacher. There is no shortage of well-deserved critiques of David Cloud and his pal, Jack Chick, on this board.

 

[Linda64]

Originally posted by webdog:

The use of Scripture in itself means nothing if it is used out of context. Satan used Scripture too. Context is the key...RIGHTLY dividing the Word.

I agree webdog, CONTEXT is very important. Taken in context, the word "wine" does not always mean "fermented". Wine in the Bible is a generic term. A comparably used term is "milk" which also have several meanings: buttermilk, sourmilk, sweet milk, etc.

Wine in Proverbs 20:1 taken in context, is obviously fermented wine.

Wine in Psalm 104:15 taken in context, is obviously "unfermented"

LEES

"Wines on the lees," were wines allowed to stand after the first fermentation for better preservation of the wine (Isa 25:6). Figuratively, it means contentment with one's self and state, indifference and sloth (Jer 48:11; Zep 1:12). To drink the lees, or dregs, is to suffer extreme punishment (Ps 75:8).

 

[DeeJay]

All that is happening here are "Christians" trying to "justify" their drinking. They have already predetermined that it is okay to drink

All I see happening here, is self righouts people who think so much of themself they see fit to add there laws and rules to the rules of God. And who have also predetermined that alcohol is a sin no matter what, not based on Scripture or even logic but based on tradition and the teachings on men.


As far as the witness. I believe more people are turned off of the chruch by self righoutous holier then thou people who want to control every aspect of a persons life with their own rules. People who sit on their high seat of judgment telling people they are evil because they make different choices. Even though they are free in Gods word to made those choices for themself.

I personaly have never heard anyone say they dont want anything to do with God because joeblow drinks wine with his steak. I have heard multitudes of people who dont want to even hear about God because they see the attitudes of judgemental leagalistic selfrightous people who want to make up their own laws and look down on other people.

As for me, I follow the Lord. You can keep your laws, rules and regulations.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

The Word of God in Proverbs 23:31 tells us not to 'have experience with' any fermented drink.

One cannot justify drinking alcohol in any measure whatsoever in the eyes of a Holy God.

You can say we are being self-righteous, but God's Word says we are not to approve of it, do not consider it, do not even have experience with it.

Whether you read the whole chapter, or even that one verse, the word 'look' is still there and still means the same.

 

[Alcott]

How do you have no experience with it if you obey the scripture in Proverbs 31:6-7? [Just call me Old BR, if you want to ]

 

[JamieinNH]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
The Word of God in Proverbs 23:31 tells us not to 'have experience with' any fermented drink.

One cannot justify drinking alcohol in any measure whatsoever in the eyes of a Holy God.

So you say this, but before in a post you say this:

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/48/912/11.html#000155


How can they drink at festivals but not drink any at all?


Jamie

 

[JamieinNH]

Originally posted by JamieinNH:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
Deuteronomy 14 is dealing with festivals and the wine was allowed in moderation at that time. The strong drink then was nothing like that which is produced now. People had to sit at the wine all day in order to get drunk.

These were festivals, they in no way compare with man's excuse to drink wine or alocholic beverage today because one is thirsty, or because one has had a bad day, or any of the many reasons people use to consume alcohol.

Thanks for trying to explain this, however like the other posters have pointed out, these statements are wrong.

How can you say it was ok to have wine in the old days but not now? How can you claim that the wine of old days is different than the wine of today?

Can you offer any proof of these differences. In one of the many many other threads about drinking, someone offered this same reason, and was explained in great detail how it was wrong.

So, why, and where do you get your information? Is it more accurate than the OP in the other thread?


As far as people having to sit there all day to get drunk, ever think that because they drank it all the time, they body got acclimated to it?

Ever been to France? Ever seen how much wine/Alcohol they drink? Do you see people staggering around after lunch time there?

No. The reason, would be the same in modern day and older days. The more you drink, the more your body gets acclimated to it.

Look at everything in context, and in nature.. The more you do something, the more acclimated you become.

Jamie </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[LadyEagle]

You're right. Comparing Cloud to an atheist is an insult to atheists.

I cannot believe I am in the Fundamental Baptist Forum. As one of the original people who wanted to see this particular forum included on the Baptist Board, to see the kind of trash and liberalism being posted on these threads is very disturbing. And to see fundamentalists being attacked in here is very disturbing, indeed.

 

[LadyEagle]

Just checked....the rules are still there:

Welcome to the Fundamental Baptist Forum, we hope you enjoy posting here. This forum was born out of a cry from many who despaired that their conservative and traditional views were constantly being attacked. It was designed to be a type of safe haven where one can post and be assured that others on the forum at least agree that the Bible is true and accurate, and will not question the Word of God in the course of the debate. Those who see things more liberally than we do can still be found on other forums so if you feel led to battle them then please do so.

 

[natters]

I believe the Bible is true and accurate. When it says "wine", it does not mean something else.