Hello Deceit,
I'm afraid your not going to find anything in Isaiah 25:6 to support drinking.
LarryN said:
Since "the lees" are the end result/by-product of fermentation, and since this verse prophetically states that the Lord Himself will serve us such wines at the Marriage Supper of The Lamb (the topic of the passage this verse is a part of)- how can we interpret this verse to be saying anything except that God Himself will one day serve wine with an alcohol content to his children?
"The lees" in this verse are not the end result by-product of fermentation, but instead refer to a filtering process that separates the fermentation causing albumen found in the lining of the grape skin and grape seeds from the grape sugar or glucose. "Wine on the lees" is just one word in the Hebrew and isn't the normal word "yayin", but the word "shemer" and refers to the vintage produce of the grape, filtered away from the juice when trying to prevent fermentation. If you delay the filtration process, fermentation sets in and causes alcoholic wine with the leftover "dregs". The vintage produce (shemer) left over after straining away the juice was often used to make preserves or jellies and that's one meaning Strong gives to the word along with the dregs left over from alcoholic wine:
shemer, from Hebrew 8104 (shamar); something preserved, i.e. the settlings (plural only) of wine dregs, (wines on the) lees.
"Well refined" translates the Hebrew "zazaq" and means to strain or purify:
zaqaq, zaw-kak'; a primitive root; to strain, (figurative) extract, clarify :- fine, pour down, purge, purify, refine.
This process of filtration and preservation was well known in ancient times. It was an additional way of preserving grape juice from fermentation besides boiling and pasteurization. An agriculturalist named Columella, living in the first century AD wrote extensivelly about it in his "On Agriculture and Trees". Along with instructions on how to preserve other fruits, he gave instructions on how to prevent fermentation of gently pressed grape juice or juice falling down by itself before being pressed. He said, " That the must may remain always as sweet as though it were fresh, do as follows. Before the grape-skins are put under the press, take from the vat some of the freshest possible must and put it in a new wine-jar; then daub it over and cover it carefully with pitch that thus no water may be able to get in. Then sink the whole flagon in a pool of cold, fresh water so that no part of it is above the surface. Then after forty days take it out of the water. The must will then keep sweet for as much as a year." The Roman poet Virgil (70-19 B.C ) mentions another method of filtration using a cloth bag. He points out that the purpose was to remove the fermentable substances from the juice. He stated, " Wines are most beneficial when all their potency has been overcome by the strainer." (Virgil, Georgics)The first century biographer Plutarch stated, "Wine is rendered old, or feeble of strength, when it is frequenntly filtered. The strength being thus excluded, the wine neither inflames the brain nor infests the mind and passions, and is much more pleasant to drink".(Pllutarch, Symposiacs) Pliny also stated that the purpose of the strainer was to remove the fermentable substances which give alcoholic potency to the wine.(Pliny, Natural History) Now this "good wine", which Plutarch described as "much more pleasant to drink" was the very wine our Lord changed from the water at the feast of Cana!
Now, to give you some evidence that "oinos" refers to grape juice as well as intoxicating wine, I refer you to
Aristotles "Metereologica". He speaks of unfermented grape juice (glukus), saying: "though called wine [oinos], it has not the effect of wine, for it does not taste like wine and does not intoxicate like ordinary wine."5 In this text Aristotle explicitly informs us that unfermented grape juice was called "oinos—wine," though it did not have the taste or the intoxicating effect of ordinary wine. Aristotle, Metereologica 388. b. 9-13.
Also, A Grammarian living about AD 200 named Athenaeus speaks of a type of grape juice where the fermentable power of the wine had been removed calling it sweet wine (oinos) and did not make the head heavy.Athenaeus, Banquet 1, 54. Now I'll refer you to word "tiyrowsh" strong's definition: " from Hebrew 3423 (yarash) in the sense of expulsion; must or fresh grape-juice (as just squeezed out); by implication (rarely) fermented wine :- (new, sweet) wine. Although rarely meaning new wine beginning to ferment, it refers mainly to the expulsion or the fresh grape-juice just squeezed out, the juice still in the cluster or to the grapes themselves.
Isaiah 65:8 (ESV)
Thus says the Lord:
"As the new wine is found in the cluster,
and they say, 'Do not destroy it,
for there is a blessing in it,'
so I will do for my servants' sake,
and not destroy them all.
Here the juice is still in the cluster.
Micah 6:15 (ESV)
You shall sow, but not reap;
you shall tread olives, but not anoint yourselves with oil;
you shall tread grapes, but not drink wine.
Here the grapes themselves are translated tirosh.
To show that oinos can also mean grape juice can be determined by the way it is tranlsated in the Greek Septuagint translation of the Old Testament. Many times tiyrowsh is translated oinos, showing it also means grape juice.
In the Old Testament, the word for wine is used in it's good sense when it was used to represent the blessings of material prosperity (Gen 27:28; 49:10-11; Deut 33:28), of the messianic age (Joel 2:18-19; Jer 31:10-12; Amos 9:13, 14), of God's saving grace (Is 55:1),the joy offered by God to His people (Ps 104:14-15; 4:7), and the use of grape juice as tithe, offerings and libations (Num 18:12; Deut 14:23; Ex 29:40; Lev 23:13).
When used in it's bad sense, it represents devine wrath, immorality and apostasy (Is 19:14; Rev 14:10; 16:19; 17:2; 18:3). The Bible condemns it in a number of ways. Sometimes the outright use of it (Prov 23:29-35; 20:1; Hab 2:5; Eph 5:18). Solomon admonishes to refrain from even looking at wine in order to avoid the shame and suffering caused by it (Prov 23:31). He goes on to describe its deadly nature by comparing it to the poisonous bite of a serpent and the sting of an adder (Prov 23:32).Other texts explain the moral consequences of the use of alcoholic beverages. They distort the perception of reality (Is 28:7; Prov 23:33); impair the capacity to make responsible decisions (Lev 10:9-11); weaken moral sensitivities and inhibitions (Gen 9:21; 19:32; Hab 2:15; Is 5:11-12); and cause physical sickness (Prov 23:20-21; Hos 7:5; Is 19:14; Ps 60:3); and disqualify for both civil and religious service (Prov 31:4-5; Lev 10:9-11; Ezek 44:23; 1 Tim 3:2-3; Titus 1:7-8).
[ November 18, 2003, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: Smoky ]
