Drinking Question......

[Steven2006]

Like I said to SFF, a person with a gluttony problem should not be encouraged to never eat again. Gluttony and drunkeness go hand in hand and are a heart problem, not a substance problem.

Silly argument because people must have food to live.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

That says stages of intoxication, not being inebriated. Notice not until you were at .06 were you twice as likely to experience those on the list. Under that amount was normal behavior. Harldy "drunk" at .02.

Using this logic you are a glutton for eating one bite of a hamburger.

Inebriated and intoxicated are synonymous. If one is inebriated, one is intoxicated. If one is intoxicated, one is inebriated.

And once one drinks one alcoholic drink, one is intoxicated. Alcohol is called an intoxicant because it intoxicates. Once you put an intoxicant in your system, you are intoxicated.

 

[Amy.G]

Wrong. Being "buzzed" is not being drunk. When you are drunk you lose control of basic motor functions like speech, walking, etc. Using your logic the "caffeine high" you get from having a cup of coffee on an empty stomach or from having a couple cups is the same thing as being drunk.

That is not true. People are able to drive while drunk, have s*x while drunk & do all kinds of stupid things while drunk. If you have lost motor function you have gone way past being drunk.

Wine is deceptive just as the bible says. You can end up doing all kinds of stuff while intoxicated that you would never do sober. And because it sneaks up on you (even experienced drinkers) you can easily get drunk without meaning to. I've seen it happen many, many times.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

At the heart of this debate is a fundamentalist desire to control the lives of others through religious law. We might as well be debating hair length, dress type, music preference, church attendance, tithing, jewelry & makeup, etc.

It is a desire by men to be God by usurping the place of the Holy Spirit. The "anti" crowd's argument always devolves into personal attacks on one's character. "You just want to get drunk, take your clothes off, listen to satanic music, etc". This habit of assuming the extreme & bearing false witness does not honor or glorify God; it reveals a Scripturally weak position.

My convictions & Biblical understanding are not governed by the sensitivities of immature believers or self-authoritative preachers but on an unbiased study of the Word. I know several persons who have personally & spiritually damaged by fundamental legalism. Should we outlaw IFB churches based upon their experiences?

For those who like to cite worst-case scenarios, I don't base my beliefs on the experiences of others. More people in America die from the effects of overeating each year than from drinking. Therefore, if you are consistent in your "convictions", you should preach against overeating & never look at or touch another unhealthy food again. Of course, religious law-based convictions are never consistent. :BangHead:



Matthew 15:3 Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

 

[Jerome]

For anyone who fell for the "well, everyone does it in Europe" line:

Oct. 17, 2010 sermon by Dr. Peter Masters of Metropolitan Tabernacle Baptist Church (London):

The old life looked to alcohol which could never 'fill' the soul as the Spirit does. Should believers imbibe at all? Biblical answers presented.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Using the logic that one is not intoxicated until one reaches the Stupor stage of inebriation is just as bad as saying one does not have cancer until one reaches Stage 4.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

At the heart of this debate is a fundamentalist desire to control the lives of others through religious law. We might as well be debating hair length, dress type, music preference, church attendance, tithing, jewelry & makeup, etc.

It is a desire by men to be God by usurping the place of the Holy Spirit. The "anti" crowd's argument always devolves into personal attacks on one's character. "You just want to get drunk, take your clothes off, listen to satanic music, etc". This habit of assuming the extreme & bearing false witness does not honor or glorify God; it reveals a Scripturally weak position.

My convictions & Biblical understanding are not governed by the sensitivities of immature believers or self-authoritative preachers but on an unbiased study of the Word. I know several persons who have personally & spiritually damaged by fundamental legalism. Should we outlaw IFB churches based upon their experiences?

For those who like to cite worst-case scenarios, I don't base my beliefs on the experiences of others. More people in America die from the effects of overeating each year than from drinking. Therefore, if you are consistent in your "convictions", you should preach against overeating & never look at or touch another unhealthy food again. Of course, religious law-based convictions are never consistent. :BangHead:



Matthew 15:3 Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

You wrongly assume that the Holy Spirit is not speaking through us.

 

[Steven2006]

At the heart of this debate is a fundamentalist desire to control the lives of others through religious law. We might as well be debating hair length, dress type, music preference, church attendance, tithing, jewelry & makeup, etc.

Other than I believe in the fundamentals of faith, I am far from what people today consider or think of when you say a fundamentalist.

 

[webdog]

That is not true. People are able to drive while drunk, have s*x while drunk & do all kinds of stupid things while drunk. If you have lost motor function you have gone way past being drunk.

Wine is deceptive just as the bible says. You can end up doing all kinds of stuff while intoxicated that you would never do sober. And because it sneaks up on you (even experienced drinkers) you can easily get drunk without meaning to. I've seen it happen many, many times.

I didn't say total control, just control. You don't lose control after a glass of wine or two, or even while being "buzzed".

 

[webdog]

Silly argument because people must have food to live.

Not really, same principal applies. If you claim ingesting alcohol = 100% going to sin, it must also apply to other sinful matters like sex, gluttony, greed, etc. We don't need sex to live either.

Not to mention what do you do with the verses where God states it's a curse NOT to have wine or the "x is better than wine" comparisons?

 

[Fred's Wife]

For anyone who fell for the "well, everyone does it in Europe" line:

Oct. 17, 2010 sermon by Dr. Peter Masters of Metropolitan Tabernacle Baptist Church (London):

The old life looked to alcohol which could never 'fill' the soul as the Spirit does. Should believers imbibe at all? Biblical answers presented.

Thanks for the link Jerome! I really like Dr. Peter Masters. I have a book which he wrote about Christians and drinking alcohol....Should Christians Drink? The Case for Total Abstinence.

 

[Steven2006]

Not really, same principal applies. If you claim ingesting alcohol = 100% going to sin, it must also apply to other sinful matters like sex, gluttony, greed, etc. We don't need sex to live either.

Not to mention what do you do with the verses where God states it's a curse NOT to have wine or the "x is better than wine" comparisons?

Your argument is very weak.

1st case, drinking which is not needed at all for life, and where near 100% of those that do will at some point get drunk and sin.

2nd case, eating food which is need to live, and where a small percentage of all the people who eat will become gluttons.

3rd case, sex. I don't get your point at all here because yes, we all should abstain 100% until married which then it is God's plan for having children.

4th case money, Again nowhere near the amount of people that use some form of currency to supply the needs for themselves or their family have a sinful condition of greed as do people who have ever gotten drunk if they choose to drink.

 

[Baptist Believer]

How many people do you know that regularly drink that can honestly say that they have never once been drunk? I have never met one in my entire life, yet I have met thousands of people that have or do drink.

Now you have.

Although I'm not sure if you can call an exchange of posts on an online forum as "meeting" someone, I have never been drunk. In fact, I have never had a "buzz" from consumption of alcoholic beverages.

Simply put, I have never been drunk because I have never had the desire to be intoxicated. It is easy to avoid getting drunk... Simply pay attention to what you are drinking, how much you consume, and the length of time in which you consume the beverages. It's also a good idea not to drink on an empty stomach and consume food with your alcohol.

Furthermore, I regularly attend a get together with other men from my church where we meet at a restaurant and often consume a beer or a glass of wine while we relax and talk about life, sports and spiritual things. No one ever gets drunk because it would not be tolerated. In a group of Christians where each one holds the other accountable for their actions, there is positive support for moderation. And, for what it's worth, no one is made to feel excluded if they don't drink an alcoholic beverage. Over the past few months, I have just consumed soft drinks at those get-togethers because I just haven't felt like having a glass of wine or beer.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

You wrongly assume that the Holy Spirit is not speaking through us.

The Spirit will NEVER contradict the written Word. Before you erroneously claim every instance of "wine" to be unfermented grape juice, look up the words & their root words. Your religious law may sound good or even have some merit, but that does not mean that it is right to add it to Scripture & call it doctrine.

Pro 31:6-7 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.

Son 1:4 Draw me, we will run after thee: the king hath brought me into his chambers: we will be glad and rejoice in thee, we will remember thy love more than wine: the upright love thee.
Son 8:2 I would lead thee, and bring thee into my mother's house, who would instruct me: I would cause thee to drink of spiced wine of the juice of my pomegranate.

Luk 7:34-35 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners! But wisdom is justified of all her children.

Luk 10:34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.

Joh 2:9-10 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk(DRUNKEN), then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

Act 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. (TOO EARLY, not we don't drink)


THE LAST TIME I WAS DRUNKEN WAS IN MY OWN HOME AFTER THE DEATH OF MY FATHER. EITHER YOU ARE CORRECT OR GOD IS (PROVERBS 31).



Mat 15:3 Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

 

[Steven2006]

Now you have.

Although I'm not sure if you can call an exchange of posts on an online forum as "meeting" someone, I have never been drunk. In fact, I have never had a "buzz" from consumption of alcoholic beverages.

Simply put, I have never been drunk because I have never had the desire to be intoxicated. It is easy to avoid getting drunk... Simply pay attention to what you are drinking, how much you consume, and the length of time in which you consume the beverages. It's also a good idea not to drink on an empty stomach and consume food with your alcohol.

.

I should know better than speak in absolutes, and if not 100% I still would say it is safe to say 99% of people that drink have at some point in time been intoxicated.

Just curious if you don't mind sharing, how old are you, and for how many years have you been a drinker?

 

[webdog]

Your argument is very weak.

1st case, drinking which is not needed at all for life, and where near 100% of those that do will at some point get drunk and sin.

2nd case, eating food which is need to live, and where a small percentage of all the people who eat will become gluttons.

3rd case, sex. I don't get your point at all here because yes, we all should abstain 100% until married which then it is God's plan for having children.

4th case money, Again nowhere near the amount of people that use some form of currency to supply the needs for themselves or their family have a sinful condition of greed as do people who have ever gotten drunk if they choose to drink.

I have 247 passages of Scripture to support my argument

The point was not to know what is necessary to live, you have turned this into a Red Herring. Fact is Scripture allows it, encourages it, even commands the purchase of it. God Himself made the best, and will serve us ALL the best one day (even the teetotalers of today). It does not allow the abuse of it.

 

[ituttut]

I cant prove that if you have a beer or wine wrong but Paul teaches us to abstain from the appearance of evil. If you are in the U.S. in most places you set down at a meal somewhere order you beer then invite the waitress to here your Church then what are they going to think. Come on lets be realistic what more important. I have been to England 4 time they may not have problem. In the U.S yes for the most part I have been to Germany 3 times not Problem to most . In Jamaica big problem in Guatemala big problem Mexico big problem and In Africa you get the picture. I think it is better just to abstain from drinking use it in your communion OK BUT I dont think we would serve beer or whiskey at the Lord's table no we would use wine made from grapes. If you must drink a beer please dont do it in public

You make a lot of sense John. No one wishes to believe they are Babes, or immature. Many of these will not remain Babes all of their life. But some will continue in their stubborn belief that because they incorrectly believe having a drink is a sin, they see others as knowingly sinning, a judgment that is not just.

I believe we should know Who is it that has declared wine, liquor, or beer to be Evil? Is it not just certain denominations, or churches, and not God's Word? I believe this mentality has given the WORLD outside of Christ Jesus just the ammunition it needs to judge ALL Christians to be knowingly sinning.


Scripture does not say having a drink is a sin, but as we can see some will continue to stay on a milk diet. Though there are still many babes out there, there are others that do not condemn the innocent, for what they will not permit themselves to do.

 

[Steven2006]

I have 247 passages of Scripture to support my argument

The point was not to know what is necessary to live, you have turned this into a Red Herring. Fact is Scripture allows it, encourages it, even commands the purchase of it. It does not allow the abuse of it.

No I have not (turned it into a Red Herring) my point is that in the world we live today, to become a drinker will almost certainly lead to intoxication a minimum of at least once. For something that is not necessary to do, but instead is rather for pleasure why should a mature Christian support it.

If there is a Red Herring it would be your analogy of food and gluttony.

 

[Baptist Believer]

I should know better than speak in absolutes, and if not 100% I still would say it is safe to say 99% of people that drink have at some point in time been intoxicated.

Well I actually know at least a few friends who have never been drunk. And I don't think I have many Christian friends that get drunk on any regular basis, since it is very easy to avoid.

Just curious if you don't mind sharing, how old are you, and for how many years have you been a drinker?

I'm 45 years old. The first time I voluntarily* consumed alcohol was when I was 33. I had my first glass of wine because the Spirit convicted me about it when offered a glass at a get-together with extended family.



* The reason I say voluntarily is that when I was a teenager, someone handed me a "Coke" heavily loaded with Seagrams 7. I took a sip, noticed it was spiked, and handed it back to them. I was around an enormous amount of alcohol and illegal drugs during my teen years but was never tempted to indulge because I didn't want to become intoxicated. In my opinion (and I believe it is the biblical position as well), people sin because they want to sin. Alcohol is not evil, but we can misused it if we want to. It is wrong to place the blame on alcohol or others when the real issue is our motivation. If we experience the desire to be intoxicated, we shouldn't drink. If we are experiencing lustful thoughts toward another, we need to keep ourselves from situations where those lustful thoughts might lead to fantasy and then acting out. We have enormous control over what we do and what we don't do. If we find that we truly don't have control, we have an addiction and need to seek support and transformation.

 

[Baptist Believer]

For something that is not necessary to do, but instead is rather for pleasure why should a mature Christian support it.

So your premise is that something pursued for pure pleasure that could have dangers or negative repercussions should be avoided.

That would exclude lots of things:

- eating dessert
- Thanksgiving feasts
- driving a motorcycle
- swimming at the beach
- mountain climbing (think scaling the side of a mountain)
- potlucks at church
- hunting
- skiing
- etc., etc., etc.