Drinking Question......

[webdog]

If we are to take Proverbs 23:31 as moderationists claim, we are allowed to get drunk but then put the wine away from us.

Problem is, Scripture tells us not to look upon the wine when it is fermented. There is a reason for that instruction. It is found in Proverbs 20:1... it deceives.

Scripture says no such thing...I'll do what Havensdad didn't, I'll call it a lie.

 

[webdog]

The context shows that it is speaking of fermentation.

That would be a first...context showing a color to be a chemical process. Besides, context is not your strength.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Scripture says no such thing...I'll do what Havensdad didn't, I'll call it a lie.

And you are wrong.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

I find it hilarious that so many of the preachers who scream against drinking alcohol in any form to churches full of fat people are as addicted to food as any drunkard is to drinking. Gluttony is not as obviously destructive as "wine-bibbing", but it is just as destructive to the spirit. But you'll never hear preaching on gluttony or see a preacher fall on his face at the altar for living in direct violation of God's Word.

Pastors will tell others that God will not bless them for harboring unrepentant sin & that they are not right with God. If this is true, then his pastorship is a farce & he is preaching in the flesh.

The fat preacher who cannot see his feet without bending over has no place to tell anyone not to have a drink with dinner. Am I sinning if I have a mixed drink with my wife in our own home, or is the fundamentalist sinning when he bellies up to the buffet BAR for the third time?

Pro 23:20 "Be not among winebibbers; among riotous eaters of flesh". -Clear, Direct command which speaks to drinking & eating to excess! Yes, it is about moderation.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

I find it hilarious that people who try to justify drinking alcohol falsely accuse people of being gluttons.

Actually, it isn't hilarious at all... it's disheartening.

 

[Salty]

I find it hilarious that people who try to justify drinking alcohol falsely accuse people of being gluttons.

Actually, it isn't hilarious at all... it's disheartening.

I would suggest that Michael is NOT justifying drinking by accusing people of being gluttons!
(and by what authority do you use the word "falsely"). I would suppose he is simply pointing out the hypocrisy! Just to set the record straight - I am no 98 pound weakling. I am currently some 50% over my recommended weight according to US Army standards. Neither do I consume any alcoholic.
As a driving instructor, one thing that burns me up is to see a vehicle with a Christian bumper sticker - or worse yet - one with a clergy sticker, with the driver acting as though he is on the Indianapolis 500 track!

Today's Key word - CONSISTENCY !

 

[Jerome]

Hebrew scholars on Prov. 23:31

Crawford H. Toy:
v. 31 is a description of wine when complete fermentation has taken place

Julius Greenstone (Jewish Publication Society):
when it is red=fully fermented

LIARS!

 

[freeatlast]

Deuteronomy 14 is a command. Deuteronomy 21:15 is a "if this happens" contingency. Saying "There has to be something else" when scripture CLEARLY has God telling people to buy strong drink, is simply sticking your head in the sand. If drinking were sinful, God would NEVER command such a thing.

The fact is, there are NO scripture which forbids drinking in moderation; only scripture which forbid getting drunk. Personally, I abstain, not because it is sinful, but because of the one who has weaker faith, and cannot do such without violating his own self imposed rules.

I understand where you are coming from in defending the idea that there is no direct or literal command not to drink. That is fine, but in doing that you seem to try to tip the ladder for God to accept strong drink (even commanding it) where you have chosen a passage in Deut 14 that seems to suggest that God is commanding men to let their lusts run wild during this tithing offering after certain circumstances take place. So lets do that. If we are going to claim this is acceptable for today using Deut 14 then we also have to only do this when this exact circumstance takes place, because after (later revelation) this we have scripture that clearly make the case that we should not drink that which is purposely processed. Now to claim drinking in moderation is permissible what is moderation? Is it what the state sets as being under the influence while driving or is it one beer or one drink. At what point is the person under the influence which IS sin? Is it the first sip or a whole beer, or drink or when? Is it when they cannot find the door or is it when they feel light headed (first buzz) or when? Is it up to each individual to discern themselves? Are we really able to discern this? At what point does alcohol begin to hinder our abilities to make choices in the same manner as if we had no alcohol? The basic formula for estimating a person's blood-alcohol concentration comes from The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. Each drink in this calculation assumes a volume of .54 ounces of alcohol (one shot of distilled spirits, a glass of wine, or 12 ounces of beer). In every state if the alcohol concentration in a person's blood, breath or urine is .08 percent or higher, the person is considered intoxicated by law. So is this God's standard? If not what is the standard?
I ask that because many people think that they are not under the influence and get into a car and get pulled over only to find that they are considered drunk by the state. Is it all right to be under the influence if I do not drive? Are we saying that it is all right to be under the influence if we do it in moderation? So what is the standard? While I also defend the idea that there is no literal passage not to drink (abstinence) I also have to be honest that scripture does point to it. Even if we claim it casual or in moderation in my opinion it violates the intent of the Lord when it comes to substances like alcoholic beverages unless there is some special reason such as in medical purposes when nothing else is available. So since you used the argument that there is no command against moderation please give the standards for moderation. What exactly is it? Who decides?

 

[annsni]

I suggest you read the passage. It does not say 'Look not thou upon the wine when you are drunk.' It says "Look not thou upon the wine when IT IS... when IT GIVETH... when IT MOVETH..."

Don't look upon it when it is fermented.

Ahhh - once again I see you add to the Word of God. That's very sad and it makes it impossible to have a discussion with you.

Let's stop cherry picking and taking verses out of context:

29Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?

30They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.

31Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

32At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.

33Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.

34Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast.

35They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.

This is not a man who had one glass of wine with dinner. Unless you're ignorant, it is clear what this passage is addressing: drunkenness. If you are a drunkard, don't even look at wine. Period. End of story. The end. Amen.

 

[annsni]

Putting away the bottle after you're drunk is "moderation"?

No - it is a warning to those who are drunkards. Don't drink. I do believe we say that today. If you are a drunkard, don't even take one drink.

 

[annsni]

The context shows that it is speaking of fermentation.

Oh backpeddling are we? You said that the Bible says "Don't look upon it when it is fermented." That is not what the Bible says. You add to the Scripture and change it. You have just made the "Steadfast Fred Version" which I do believe you would say is a perversion.

 

[annsni]

I find it hilarious that so many of the preachers who scream against drinking alcohol in any form to churches full of fat people are as addicted to food as any drunkard is to drinking. Gluttony is not as obviously destructive as "wine-bibbing", but it is just as destructive to the spirit. But you'll never hear preaching on gluttony or see a preacher fall on his face at the altar for living in direct violation of God's Word.

Pastors will tell others that God will not bless them for harboring unrepentant sin & that they are not right with God. If this is true, then his pastorship is a farce & he is preaching in the flesh.

The fat preacher who cannot see his feet without bending over has no place to tell anyone not to have a drink with dinner. Am I sinning if I have a mixed drink with my wife in our own home, or is the fundamentalist sinning when he bellies up to the buffet BAR for the third time?

Pro 23:20 "Be not among winebibbers; among riotous eaters of flesh". -Clear, Direct command which speaks to drinking & eating to excess! Yes, it is about moderation.

Amen!! :applause: :thumbsup:

 

[freeatlast]

I find it hilarious that so many of the preachers who scream against drinking alcohol in any form to churches full of fat people are as addicted to food as any drunkard is to drinking. Gluttony is not as obviously destructive as "wine-bibbing", but it is just as destructive to the spirit. But you'll never hear preaching on gluttony or see a preacher fall on his face at the altar for living in direct violation of God's Word.

Pastors will tell others that God will not bless them for harboring unrepentant sin & that they are not right with God. If this is true, then his pastorship is a farce & he is preaching in the flesh.

The fat preacher who cannot see his feet without bending over has no place to tell anyone not to have a drink with dinner. Am I sinning if I have a mixed drink with my wife in our own home, or is the fundamentalist sinning when he bellies up to the buffet BAR for the third time?

Pro 23:20 "Be not among winebibbers; among riotous eaters of flesh". -Clear, Direct command which speaks to drinking & eating to excess! Yes, it is about moderation.

So if you can discern that Gluttony is sin (By the way biblically gluttony has nothing to do with being fat. God never condemns being fat.). Can you discern when one is under the infleunce of alcohol? What is moderation? Who determinds that?

 

[saturneptune]

So if you can discern that Gluttony is sin (By the way biblically gluttony has nothing to do with being fat. God never condemns being fat.). Can you discern when one is under the infleunce of alcohol? What is moderation? Who determinds that?

You couldn't discern the nose on your face.

 

[freeatlast]

You couldn't discern the nose on your face.

You could be right, but I can read and I accept what ithe bible says and teaches. :wavey:

 

[webdog]

You could be right, but I can read and I accept what ithe bible says and teaches. :wavey:

See, your discernment is QUITE lacking.

 

[freeatlast]

See, your discernment is QUITE lacking.

as if you had the ability to know. :laugh:

 

[Aaron]

Blatant cherry picking? God said it is good. In any context, it is good. How can someone condemn that which God says is good?

No, He did NOT say it was good. You're trying to find something in a carnal command given under a dispensation of darkness to infants in faith. You're like the Pharisees who thought, "Gee, God commanded a bill of divorcement, it must be good."

I can find an apostle saying it is good NOT to drink wine, or to do anything that will cause a brother to stumble. And that is what I will promote. I will promote doing good, and those who know how to love their brothers will do the same.

Those who love themselves will always find ways to hallow even questionable activities, and are wiser in their own eyes then seven men who can render an answer.

 

[Aaron]

Aaron, did Paul not encourage a certain young pastor to drink a little wine for his stomach? He didn't tell him to do this because the wine would be bad for him but that it would do him some "good."

We're talking about casual, recreational drinking, not medicine. Try to exercise a bit of discernment.

 

[Amy.G]

Oh backpeddling are we? You said that the Bible says "Don't look upon it when it is fermented." That is not what the Bible says. You add to the Scripture and change it. You have just made the "Steadfast Fred Version" which I do believe you would say is a perversion.

I don't have a dog in this hunt, but according to several commentaries (Clarke, Gill, Poole) when the wine is "red" (Prov. 23:31) is referring to fermented wine. But the problem is not with just looking at it, but looking at it with a lustful eye, much like lusting after a woman. This is what leads to the over-consumption and abuse of it.

I can post the commentaries if anyone would like.