Drinking Responsibly

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by Anthro:
Proof is defined by emperical observation. As such, proof is impossible to obtain in this case, as I just stated. We have to thus go by what is most probable based upon the best available evidence.

On the other hand, Scriptural proof, i.e., transcendent proof based upon ultimate authority, is, in fact, proof, to those who accept it as such (I do)--and even if they don't accept it they will find out one day.

When I asked to find out what is acceptable proof, I was serious... I have often discussed issues such as this only to have someone whose beliefs were threatened demand that I "prove" it. The simple fact is that no one can "prove" anything to anyone unless they are willing to accept proof. (Think of the parable of the man in torment where he asked the Lord to send Moses back to speak to his family...)

Once you can establish an acceptable basis of "proof", you can actually discuss the issue without going around in rhetorical circles. Unfortunately those who demand that you "prove it" usually are not interested in risking their opinion by establishing a honest method by which you can discuss an issue. Usually "prove it" means that the other person knows they have no argument but is not intellectually honest enough to admit it.

Establishing a basis of "proof" is a way to either end objections or take the next step and make progress in a discussion. It makes both sides commit to a discussion.

 

[Artimaeus]

I don't drink (anymore).
I will drink if necessary. (It never has been.)
There is no sin inside the glass.
How do you think it is going to play out when you tell people that a little bit of drinking is OK? Do you honestly think that even a majority of people are going to be like Baptist Believer and NEVER cross the line?

Matt 13:2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day. 3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him; 4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests? 5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? 6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. 7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

Was Jesus clearifying the law so that anytime someone wanted a midday snack they could go to the temple and help themselves? No! He was saying that NEEDS are more important than perceived technicalities (mercy is more important than sacrifice). Do you think David would have done this if, sitting right outside the house of God was a Mess Hall for the Army? No! If drinking an alcoholic beverage is necessary I will do so, if it is not, I will not. Did Jesus drink more than was necessary? (Don't answer since none of us really knows anyway). I guess I had better explain that one a little bit. If, for Jesus' size, it took 18 ounces of wine for him to cross the line we know that he never did, but let's say that he did need 9.6 ounces to survive, my question would be, did he ever drink 9.7 ounces? (Numbers are made up for illustration). In other words, more than he NEEDED but less than crossing the line. This is not the same anology as that in Rom 14 (about eating meat from animals sacrificed by heathens). Meat is meat and the evil isn't transferred.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by Sherrie:
"Drinking Responsibly"

What if the question were is there responsible drinking?

My answer is no then to your question. What is responsible about drinking. There is nothing about it responsible.

What is inherently irresponsible about drinking an alcoholic beverage?

Why was Jesus so irresponsible?

 

[Speedpass]

The reason I don't consume alcoholic beverages is because I don't need them to show others how important a person I am.

 

[RaptureReady]

Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Anthro:
Proof is defined by emperical observation. As such, proof is impossible to obtain in this case, as I just stated. We have to thus go by what is most probable based upon the best available evidence.

On the other hand, Scriptural proof, i.e., transcendent proof based upon ultimate authority, is, in fact, proof, to those who accept it as such (I do)--and even if they don't accept it they will find out one day.

When I asked to find out what is acceptable proof, I was serious... I have often discussed issues such as this only to have someone whose beliefs were threatened demand that I "prove" it. The simple fact is that no one can "prove" anything to anyone unless they are willing to accept proof. (Think of the parable of the man in torment where he asked the Lord to send Moses back to speak to his family...)

Once you can establish an acceptable basis of "proof", you can actually discuss the issue without going around in rhetorical circles. Unfortunately those who demand that you "prove it" usually are not interested in risking their opinion by establishing a honest method by which you can discuss an issue. Usually "prove it" means that the other person knows they have no argument but is not intellectually honest enough to admit it.

Establishing a basis of "proof" is a way to either end objections or take the next step and make progress in a discussion. It makes both sides commit to a discussion. </font>[/QUOTE]2 Peter 2:1  But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by HomeBound:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
When I asked to find out what is acceptable proof, I was serious... I have often discussed issues such as this only to have someone whose beliefs were threatened demand that I "prove" it. The simple fact is that no one can "prove" anything to anyone unless they are willing to accept proof. (Think of the parable of the man in torment where he asked the Lord to send Moses back to speak to his family...)

Once you can establish an acceptable basis of "proof", you can actually discuss the issue without going around in rhetorical circles. Unfortunately those who demand that you "prove it" usually are not interested in risking their opinion by establishing a honest method by which you can discuss an issue. Usually "prove it" means that the other person knows they have no argument but is not intellectually honest enough to admit it.

Establishing a basis of "proof" is a way to either end objections or take the next step and make progress in a discussion. It makes both sides commit to a discussion.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. </font>[/QUOTE]What in the world does this verse have to do with anything discussed here?

Why are you trying to change the subject? You demanded proof and I asked you what kind of proof you require. Now I get this response that seems to indicate that you think I am somehow a false teacher.

I’ll ask again. What kind of proof do you require? This is not a trick question and it won’t hurt to answer it unless you have been intellectually dishonest.

 

[Johnv]

(1) A true statement
I'd say that's a true statement. We know Jesus, a devout Jew, partook of Sabbath and Passover meals, of which wine was and still is a staple.

(2) An example for us to follow
Jesus never used alcoholic consumption as examples to follow, so no.

(3) An oxymoron
No. One can consume alcohol responsibly by stopping consumption prior to reaching the point of intoxication.

 

[Jim1999]

I don't think there is any question about whether or not we can drink alcoholic beverages from a scriptural point of view. What concerns me, is given the atmosphere where alcohol is consumed, and given the type of people who usually consume alcoholic beverages, why would a truly born again Christian want to consume alcohol?

Try witnessing in a tavern or pub. Try discussing the merits of knowing and following the Lord Jesus in these places. I would find it very difficult to discuss the things of Christ whilst guzzling a bottle of beer. I would feel that my testimony would be worth less than the cost of that beer.

With the hymn writer, I'd rather have Jesus than anything this world affords to give........

Cheers,

Jim

 

[RaptureReady]

BB, whatever proof you have concocted.

 

[Speedpass]

Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
I am over 250 pounds and 6'05"

Did you ever play sports in school?

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by HomeBound:
BB, whatever proof you have concocted.

Nope.

Not gonna play that game. You obviously have an attitude where any evidence I give you will be “concocted” (to use your word). By using the word “concocted” you have indicated your bias against any material I may provide. Why should I give you evidence that you indicate you will reject?

If you make a demand that someone “prove it”, you are either making the challenge honestly or dishonestly. An honest challenge would involve reaching a conclusion regarding acceptable evidence (or “proof”) while a intellectually dishonest challenge would resist any sort of attempt to provide convincing evidence.

It is becoming clear that you have no intention of actually discussing any contrary opinion regarding the issue…

But I’ll try one last time:

What sort of evidence (“proof”) do you require?

Is scriptural evidence enough?

There have been a number of people here from both sides of the contemporary issue who have provided an enormous amount of evidence that Jesus did drink alcoholic beverages (specifically fermented wine) when He walked the earth.

Do you want extra-biblical historical evidence regarding the alcoholic content of wine in first century Palestine?

If so, I can try to find some information for you.

Is there some other source of evidence you would consider “proof”?

If so, please name it.


NOTE: If you can’t come up with a source that you would consider valid, perhaps your objections are based on something other than facts and/or your standards for “proof” are completely unrealistic and arbitrarily applied.

[ April 21, 2003, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: Baptist Believer ]

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by ExxonMobil:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
I am over 250 pounds and 6'05"

Did you ever play sports in school? </font>[/QUOTE]Not really. I always hated organized sports. I didn’t like the obsessively competitive nature of Texas UIL sports, so I didn’t play. I also had other interests in high school – leadership in the youth group at church – that kept me very busy. (Plus I’m not very fast because of my large frame, so the only thing I could really do in high school sports was to play an offensive lineman or center position. )

I did work in executive protection here in Fort Worth while I was going to seminary. I was pretty effective in intimidation tactics and taking people down. But I got completely out of that back in the mid 1990s. I’ve put on a little too much weight to do it nowdays.

I also don't care to risk my life anymore because I have familial responsibilities.

 

[Johnv]

...why would a truly born again Christian want to consume alcohol?

I think the question "why" is a different one from "can we" from a scriptural point of view.

Although, I think we're in agreement on both those questions.

 

[RaptureReady]

Baptist Believer, you are right, no manner what material or whatever you have to present, I will never believe that Jesus drunk fermented alcohol. So your debate with me will return void.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by HomeBound:
Baptist Believer, you are right, no manner what material or whatever you have to present, I will never believe that Jesus drunk fermented alcohol. So your debate with me will return void.

I appreciate your honest answer.

Thanks!

 

[Anthro]

no manner what material or whatever you have to present, I will never believe that Jesus drunk fermented alcohol.

Sheesh. Talk about your not rejoicing with the truth, and stubborn closed ears.

 

[time like this]

The making of WINE

The grapes are first picked by hand and placed in bags or carts. This is an all day job. Fermentation starts before they leave the feild.

The grapes now go to the WINEPRESS. Skin,stem and all. The juice is then stored in wine-skins or jugs for 12-15 days so that the dregg can settle to the bottom. The sugar content increases producing alchol which kills the leaven/ impurities. You know how the BLOOD purges our sin.

Wine was not fit for Temple use unless it was 40 days old. Therefore grapes harvested in sept/oct could not be used until the Passover. This was NEW WINE.

They had drunks in those days as we have them today. They abused it then as it is today.

Should a christian get drunk? no.
I lived in wine country in northern Ca. and thought the whole wine making process was fascinating.

I would never offer wine to a person who has a drinking problem just as i don't offer information to gossips. That is not love. I do not buy liquor because i do not want the people i witness to to stumble. I can drink a glass and stop. I won't offend my bro/sis in drink if they can't.

But yes the Jesus drank wine,but some should not. It is a bad thing not to be open to truth because we are of a different opinion.

 

[RTB]

I don't drink because I'm working on my witness. I think everyone knows what that means..

In Christ

Ronnie

 

[Terry_Herrington]

Baptist Believer,

It does not matter what you say to Homebound. He is one of these Christians who has his mind made up about everything, and anyone who disagrees with him is, as best, worldly or, at worst, a false teacher. It is better to ignore his foolish comments.

 

[stubbornkelly]

I sort of understand the "working on my witness" thing, but then again I don't. Why should having a drink on occasion hurt your witness? I should think that if we are questioned, we can easily explain that the Bible does not condemn the drinking of alcohol. I should also think that we are to dispel the myths of Christianity (of what a Christian must look like), not give in to them. The logic of "ruining one's witness" makes sense if we're talking about hypocrisy, but we're not. Creating a false stumbling block is fruitless. I'm speaking generally here, not about those for whom alcohol is a problem - but we cannot allow ourselves to create Biblical issues where there are none.

I'm sure there are many non-Christians who would be surprised that Christian women work, that we wear trousers, and that Christian couples enjoy sex. They may even say, "You can't be Christian - you're a smart dressing woman, and Christian women are supposed to look dowdy, aren't they?" That's actually not extreme, at least in my experience. But does that mean we should all start dressing like old time dowagers because the world thinks "that's what Christians do?"

Should we adapt our ways to what the world thinks Christians should look like?

There are certainly circumstances during which drinking alcohol may be inappropriate, but I see no reason it should be completely prohibited.