Drums in Christian Music

[TaterTot]

Yes, you!! I'd love to have you come play.

 

[Dale McNamee]

Dear Tater Tot,

Thanks for your kind compliment! I wish that our praise group,Chancel Praise,would record a CD. That would allow you to hear how I play in lieu of visiting. Don't know when I'd ever make it your way...But,never say "never"...

I noticed that you're from Missippi, I live just outside of Baltimore,exactly 7 miles from the famed Inner Harbor (door to door).

In Christ,

Dale

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by Aaron:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by webdog:
To conclude that if something appeals to our likes and emotions (body, matter) is wrong and evil, is in fact a form of gnosticism. God created us to like drums, beats, cymbals, etc. To use gnostic reasoning of "drums are good if you stand, sinful if you sit" or "if I like how drums sound, it must be worldly (sinful)" is not only comical, but false teaching.

Again, that's not the argument. The argument is not about matter and non-matter. It's about the carnal nature and the spiritual nature. To which does something appeal?

According to the Scriptures, the carnal mind is at enmity with God, and that those things which men highly esteem are an abomination to Him. It is not gnostic reasoning in the least to ask these questions.

Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men. </font>[/QUOTE]I am very well aware what the argument is about, and it really has nothing to do with appealing to man's "carnal nature". We all have likes. Not every like is automatically carnal if it is not directly spiritual. Some people like pizza...some don't. Does this have anything to do with carnality? Same thing applies to music. The like or dislike of an instrument does not equal spiritual / carnal. It's part of how God made each one of us individually. Therefore to claim that having a physical liking of how CCM, drums, guitars, etc. sound is indeed gnostic thinking.

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Johnv:
The problem is that some have for themselves decided what is carnal, and hence decided it must be carnal for all, and as such banned.

That's a problem everywhere you go, but we aren't allowed the luxury of abandoning the question because of the presuppositions of some, or of the difficulty others have in answering it. But what is good is good for all, and what is evil is evil for all. God is the One who decides.

Some have decided this with drums. Yet I point to the Salvation Army and say "they use drums at every worship service, with no evidence of the carnal", to which no reply is ever given.

I don't argue specific instruments, I argue styles. Where one draws the line with styles will determine how they answer the question in the OP.

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by webdog:
I am very well aware what the argument is about, and it really has nothing to do with appealing to man's "carnal nature".

Yes it does. The delineation between carnal and non-carnal forms of music is the same delineation one makes between other forms of artas in the difference between a good photo and pornography.

Substitute the word "porn" for pizza in your analogy and you'll see why your reasoning is fallacious.

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by Aaron:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by webdog:
I am very well aware what the argument is about, and it really has nothing to do with appealing to man's "carnal nature".

Yes it does. The delineation between carnal and non-carnal forms of music is the same delineation one makes between other forms of artas in the difference between a good photo and pornography.

Substitute the word "porn" for pizza in your analogy and you'll see why your reasoning is fallacious. </font>[/QUOTE]Besides being off topic you are now comparing apples to oranges. Porn is sinful pictures, and cannot NOT be sinful. A picture in itself is not sinful. Drums played at a Marilyn Manson concert are used for evil...while the drums themselves are not actually sinful, nor is the sound produced by them. Drums played during a worship service are being used for good...while the drums themselves are not good, nor is the sound produced by them any holier. The physical liking of the sound a drum makes is not carnal.

 

[Dale McNamee]

Dear Webdog,

Aaron lives in a fantasy world where only the fundamentalist church/denomination that he belongs to is the TRUE,UNSPOTTED,and FAITHFUL,
church. All others are apostate.

He'll never change his opinions regarding contemporary Christian worship music since in a long ago post in another thread on music: " My position is the correct one,I'm convinced of it."


In Christ,

Dale

 

[Aaron]

webdog, are you sure you're not Travelsong in disguise? A painting or a photo is more than the sum of its parts. Break down a photo into pixels, colors and photographic paper, and you create the illusion that it's all good since there is nothing inherently evil about it's parts. But put these parts together in an evil composition, and it's an evil work. It should be burned just as books of "curious arts" were burned, Acts 19:19.

It's the same with music. We can by nature discern between music and random noises, because we take it in as a unified whole. It's a work. It's communication. It's interaction. It is, therefore, either good or evil. It isn't like a piece a driftwood that washed up on the shore that a man can use to either build his shelter or brain his neighbor. Music is the action itself.

[ January 07, 2006, 03:00 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Dale McNamee:
...in a long ago post in another thread on music: " My position is the correct one,I'm convinced of it."

If you're going to quote me, do it accurately. I said simply, my position is the correct one. But I fail to see how you could use that to deprecate me, because everyone arguing this point feels his position is the correct one.

Unless...you're feeling that you might be mistaken? That God might indeed be displeased with your pounding on the Conga Drums in church?

Here's my advice. If you are not fully convinced, then don't do it. Whatever is not of faith is sin.

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by Aaron:
webdog, are you sure you're not Travelsong in disguise? A painting or a photo is more than the sum of its parts. Break down a photo into pixels, colors and photographic paper, and you create the illusion that it's all good since there is nothing inherently evil about it's parts. But put these parts together in an evil composition, and it's an evil work. It should be burned just as books of "curious arts" were burned, Acts 19:19.

It's the same with music. We can by nature discern between music and random noises, because we take it in as a unified whole. It's a work. It's communication. It's interaction. It is, therefore, either good or evil. It isn't like a piece a driftwood that washed up on the shore that a man can use to either build his shelter or brain his neighbor. Music is the action itself.

I will pass by your personal attack of being called travelsong.

Pornography = sin
photograph = photograph

You are trying to say they are one in the same, and they are not. A photograph of a flower is not sin, a photograph of a naked person is sin(called porn).

Your weak analogies amaze me. You claim if a drum is beaten at a sinful event, the drum and the sound it produces is sinful. This cannot be backed up by Scripture, especially the one you took out of context.

If I were you, I would not eat food anymore. The same food items you eat are also eaten by gluttons, making food and the act of digestion sinful

I am moving on. I will agree to disagree with you.

 

[Dale McNamee]

Hey Aaron,

I'm convinced that drums are to be used in worship and I stand behind that conviction.

Where does the attitude of one's heart in worshipping Him (see: Matt.15:9 and Mark 7:7 and http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/w/1136665348-5120.html (worship,mentioned 108 times)

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/h/1136665402-4504.html (hearts,mentioned 113 times)

God seems to put a great deal of value on the attitude of the heart and rejected worship,done "by the book",because the Israelites paid him "lip service" while worshipping other gods!

Let's not forget the Pharisees,they too did things "by the book" and passed judgement on those that they considered "inferior"!

Read Luke 18:10-14!

Also,if you are going to quote Scripture,quote the whole verse from Hebrews regarding faith!

From Hbr 11:6 "But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

I don't see what this has to do with drums in Christian music.

I also don't like your presumptions regarding my faith in God...That's pure gall and arrogance,coming from you!

Don't ever assume that my responses to your postings are in any way due to "guilt" from God... I'm just responding to your posts and the misinformation that you post as "Scriptural truth",that's all!

In Christ,

Dale

 

[Aaron]

Oh, then you ARE convinced that your position is the right one. My mistake.

But when you say it it's good, when I say it it's bad?

BTW, the verse I quoted is Romans 14:23. And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by webdog:
I will pass by your personal attack of being called travelsong.

It wasn't a personal attack. You're just making the exact same argument that he always did.

Pornography = sin
photograph = photograph

More accurately:

Pornography = evil photo (note the word "graph").
Picture of a flower = good photo.

You claim if a drum is beaten at a sinful event, the drum and the sound it produces is sinful.

I did? Where did I make this ridiculous claim?

If I were you, I would not eat food anymore. The same food items you eat are also eaten by gluttons, making food and the act of digestion sinful

First, excess in anything is a sin. Even good things. But to make your food analogy more consistent with the discussion of music, you should describe good food and polluted food. Would you eat moldy bread if you knew it was moldy? What about food that was prepared by someone like Typhoid Mary?

I am moving on. I will agree to disagree with you.

Whatever.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Dale McNamee:
I also don't like your presumptions regarding my faith in God...That's pure gall and arrogance,coming from you!

LOL...

If you think he's bad now, you should have been here when his nitwit friend, Enda, was here.

Oh, they made a great tag team, telling us all what wretched sinners we are because we like different music than they do.

Now Playing: Gamble Rodgers - "Sings of a Misspent Youth"

 

[Aaron]

Dale,

Just so we all know what you're saying:

Is it okay for you to say you're fully convinced that your position is the right one, and not okay for me to say that mine is?

 

[Dale McNamee]

Dear Aaron,

You wrote: "Dale,

Just so we all know what you're saying:

Is it okay for you to say you're fully convinced that your position is the right one, and not okay for me to say that mine is?"

My answer to your question is "NO",but you'll notice that I DID NOT TRY TO IMPOSE IT on anyone as YOU SFTEN DO in your postings and condemn those who differ.

What I condemn are the not well-reasoned arguments that the "Anti-CCM/Contemporary Worship Music/Drums" crowd puts out which all seem to be verbatim copies from Dial-the-"Truth" and Way of Life.

Not an original thought amongst them!

Since you want Sriptural support for my convictions,here are some Scriptures for you:

From http://www.psalmdrummers.org/index.htm :

" The Bible drum is the 'tof' (Hebrew), which modern translators mostly render as 'tambourine'. The 'tof' is a frame drum. It has no jingles and is named after its sound - a deep thud. The modern tambourine does not truly represent the drum which appears in Scripture 16 times. God's word gives authority for the drummer to strike the drum: in celebration (1 Chron. 13:8); in praise (Ps. 150:4); in worship (Ps. 68:25); for prophecy (1 Sam. 10:5, 6); for healing (Ps. 81:2-7); and in declaration of the Lord's sovereignty (Isaiah 30:32)."

To those Scriptures,I would add Psalm 81:1-3,and Psalms 149 & 150.

You also quoted Romans 14:23:

"And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith: for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin."

Did you notice the highlighted part of the verse ? Are you "he that doubteth" ?

I'm not!

Did you also notice Romans 14:3 ?

" Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

Some things for you to think about...

There can be two answers to the question...If you feel that drums are evil...OK.

I feel that drums should be used...That's called Christian liberty,the subject of Romans 14.

I'll close with this...I've been playing in churches for 30 years and I never had anyone complain that I was leading them to sin or "putting a stumbling block" in their way. In fact,I've been told that my playing edifies them and adds greatly to worship!

In Christ,

Dale

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Dale McNamee:
...but you'll notice that I DID NOT TRY TO IMPOSE IT on anyone as YOU SFTEN DO in your postings and condemn those who differ.

Could you link us to any post of mine where I condemned anyone? If I say, "You're wrong," is that condemnation? If I say anything, and answer the objections raised to it, how am I doing anything but exercising my duty to give an answer?

Since you want Sriptural support for my convictions,here are some Scriptures for you:

From http://www.psalmdrummers.org/index.htm :

" The Bible drum is the 'tof' (Hebrew), which modern translators mostly render as 'tambourine'. The 'tof' is a frame drum. It has no jingles and is named after its sound - a deep thud. The modern tambourine does not truly represent the drum which appears in Scripture 16 times. God's word gives authority for the drummer to strike the drum: in celebration (1 Chron. 13:8); in praise (Ps. 150:4); in worship (Ps. 68:25); for prophecy (1 Sam. 10:5, 6); for healing (Ps. 81:2-7); and in declaration of the Lord's sovereignty (Isaiah 30:32)."

Since you seem to have missed it, I already said I don't argue specific instruments. I argue styles. It's not so much whether or not a drum is played, but how it's played.

But let's go forward with your argument. Do those then who oppose the use of drums in Christian worship oppose God?

You also quoted Romans 14:23...

Yes, not because I think music is anything like meat or wine or that that passage has any bearing at all on the styles of music employed in Christian worship, but because you think it does. Since you were treating the assurance of my position as a thing to be ridiculed, my response was to show you that if you're doing anything in God's name, you'd better darned well be assured of it.

 

[webdog]

I already said I don't argue specific instruments. I argue styles. It's not so much whether or not a drum is played, but how it's played.

You can't be serious! Now it's sin based on a certain speed and pressure applied to the drum? You should join the Sanhedrin!

 

[Dale McNamee]

Dear Aaron,

You wrote:

" Could you link us to any post of mine where I condemned anyone? If I say, "You're wrong," is that condemnation? If I say anything, and answer the objections raised to it, how am I doing anything but exercising my duty to give an answer?"

I did some looking at you posts here and in a nother thread and here's what I found:

From your 01/06 post in the “Seedy Legacy” thread:

"quote:

Originally posted by tinytim:
If you do not believe that drums are pagan, then good. I agree with you, drums are not pagan.

Now this is a different statement. Drums as primary instruments are better suited to paganism than to Christianity .”

Again, from your 01/06 post in the “Seedy Legacy” thread: “quote:

Originally posted by tinytim:
Especially when people say that drums are evil because they came from Africa.

I have never heard anyone say this. This certainly needs to be corrected. Could you link us to a post?

My answer : From: http://www.av1611.org/cqguide.html

“With all the many references to musical instruments, there is one instrument that is NEVER mentioned! The DRUM! Why is that? The drum was a very common instrument in Egypt and the lands around Israel. And yet the DRUM is NEVER mentioned in a King James Bible.

Did the Lord just forget to include the DRUM or is there another reason?

Is it because — drums are associated with voodoo, shamanism, paganism and magic rituals?”

from your 01/07 post in “Seedy Legacy” :

“Dale,

I don't consult Cloud when I do research, though he often makes some good points, the bad points out number them. But, no where does he say that drums are bad because they're from Africa. He said that drums are bad because God doesn't like them, and because they're better suited for shamanistic practices.

That Africa is, and has been all through history, a stronghold of Satan, is not my fault. That's just the way it is.”

From your 01/07 post in “Drums in Christian Music?” thread:

“If you're going to quote me, do it accurately. I said simply, my position is the correct one. But I fail to see how you could use that to deprecate me, because everyone arguing this point feels his position is the correct one.

Unless...you're feeling that you might be mistaken? That God might indeed be displeased with your pounding on the Conga Drums in church?

Here's my advice. If you are not fully convinced, then don't do it. Whatever is not of faith is sin.”

Note the word “pounding” and the presumption of a lack of faith on my part expressed in the full statement.

THESE ARE YOUR WORDS,ARE THEY NOT?

But,let's move on...

You also said:

" Since you seem to have missed it, I already said I don't argue specific instruments. I argue styles. It's not so much whether or not a drum is played, but how it's played.

But let's go forward with your argument. Do those then who oppose the use of drums in Christian worship oppose God?"

I'll answer your second statement first: I NEVER IMPLIED that idea at all!

Talk about missing things...

I said in my previous posts that if someone feels personally that they don't like drums and drums are not to be used in Christian music or in church,that's fine for that person.

I'll accept that,but when that person impugns my faith because I play the drums...

Who's being the more "not of faith" ?

I'll say it more clearly,I play the conga drums and other hand drums for the Lord,for His Glory & Honor,to praise Him by using the drumming talent that He gave me as my reasonable service to Him!

Now,regarding your statement: " It's not so much whether or not a drum is played, but how it's played..."

Tell me...How do YOU think that it should be played ?

I'd like an honest answer from YOU that isn't coming from someone else that you read.

You might want to read my posting on page 4 of this thread.

You accuse me of ridiculing your position...

I'm NOT,I AM challenging it! THERE IS a difference!

You also said in regards to my mentioning your quote of Romans 14:23:

" Yes, not because I think music is anything like meat or wine or that that passage has any bearing at all on the styles of music employed in Christian worship, but because you think it does."

BUT,YOU QUOTED IT,NOT I!

The whole chapter of Romans 14 deals with the concept of Christian liberty and conscience .

So,in this case as with others,both of us can be right under Romans 14.

In Christ,

Dale

 

[Aaron]

Bonga Dale said:

From your 01/06 post in the “Seedy Legacy” thread:

"quote:

Originally posted by tinytim:
If you do not believe that drums are pagan, then good. I agree with you, drums are not pagan.

Now this is a different statement. Drums as primary instruments are better suited to paganism than to Christianity .”

This statement is about the suitability of drums. Who's being condemned? Does someone have to agree with you about drums in order to not be condemning you?

If I say, "Homosexuality is an abomination toward God," am I condemning gays and lesbians? [Don't get your shorts in a wad, I'm not comparing you to sodomites, but the only matters in which CCM and non-CCM folks seem to agree is in extremes.]

Of course not. And neither is it a condemnation of anyone to say that certain styles of music are carnal.

[*snip all similar examples in your post*]

[*snip examples that just simply miss the point despite numerous attempts to clarify*]

But you need to be careful with your accusations. You've just condemned yourself. By your standards I could take any of your statements about my position as condemnation. Double standards, however, are par for the course when dealing with CCM people anyway. I've gotten used to it. It's just fun to it out once in a while.